Stojko opposes the ladies result

[bems]

Stojko is a bitter little man. He has contributed little since his departure and should be ignored.

If he had written with more fact and less malice I might listen but for now he needs to come on side as a Canadian with less bias. He failed at Salt Lake and has not recovered.

 

[Artistry]

Well, Johnn, since you ask, one thing in your post ( x 2000 other posts) "that is not true" is that you think that Mao doesn't have good choreography. That's your opinion and not a fact - not "truth", although every time you write you seem to imply yours are words of some kind of undebatable TRUTH. I understand that you can express your opinions and this is not the Mao Asada Fan Forum, but this is also not a Let's hear Johnnnn Bag on Mao forum. Can you at least minimize the amount of completely repetitive comments that you make, like others have suggested? Or is there an 'ignore' button that I haven't learned about on this forum?

Also, YOU may think Rachmaninoff in this arrangement is creepy. I actually think it's strangely alluring and hypnotic, and that there's nothing wrong with music that doesn't sound happy. If one looks at Olympic GM programs of the past, quite a lot are composed in minor and if skated flawlessly would get 5.9 and 6.0.

 

[bmelanie]

Could it be that Mao was really insistent on doing the triple axel? This jump is her signature move. I'm a little frustrated that her focus on it comes at the expense of the rest of her program, but I rather admire her strong will to keep it, in a 'full speed ahead, d*mn the torpedoes' kind of way. As for the location of training, if Tarasova currently has a lot of Russian students, it would make sense that she would rather stay in Russia. And IIRC, she is also responsible for taking care of a family relative (not sure if it's mom or sis). Couldn't Mao have moved to Russia instead? It would have been really hard for her (different place, language, culture), but being such a strong person that she is, I think she would have adapted splendidly. Moving the training base is what Virtue and Moir did. Yu-Na had to. I'm sure there are other skaters also who have made this sacrifice. Concerning money, Mao would have had it easier than some skaters, because she had won competitions, skated in ice shows, and has endorsements/sponsors. Perhaps she didn't want to leave her family and her education..?

Less than 24 hours to the free skate. I am sure that Mao will do her best. If she will be happy with her performance, then that is all I can ask for.

I have heard that it was at Mao's insistence that she put 2 3As in the LP - but it's hearsay, I can't speak for her. I did read that the music selection was Mao's; Tarasova gave her a couple of options for each program and Mao chose Masquerade and Bells - so we can't really blame TAT for that. As for training grounds, Mao wanted to train at Chukyo University where they provided her with a private rink for training, and of course any skater would want to stay in a familiar environment. eg. Yuna may train in Canada but she lives within the sizeable Korean community in Toronto.
Mao may not seem like it, but simply looking at the decisions she has made over the past few seasons - leaving Arutunian right before Worlds, putting 2 3As in her LP, refusing to change any content in her programs, recycling the Masquerade - I feel she's got a pretty stubborn streak. She sticks with a decision, for better or for worse, and I do respect her for that, even if I find it frustrating. There's a fine line between persistence and butthead stubborn, however, and I think she's been toeing it.

 

[Darcy518]

I totally forgot about that one, i saw it a few months ago and it was beatiful, i think it was the hardest combination a lady did that day

The 2nd hardest combo in Ladies SP at Nagano was perhaps 3T-3T, done by Surya Bonaly.

And I just remember that Kimmie also did 3LZ-3T at Torino 2006. Impressive! :thumbsup:

 

[newvie]

To newvie's point, I don't think Kim would have pursued the 3A if it has a higher BV. Did she even try to use it in any of her programs pre-2006 or after?

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

I think the competition between Mao and Yuna have pushed and helped each other and the skating world.
The ladies' filed would have become much less interesting without them.

 

[bethissoawesome]

I have heard that it was at Mao's insistence that she put 2 3As in the LP - but it's hearsay, I can't speak for her. I did read that the music selection was Mao's; Tarasova gave her a couple of options for each program and Mao chose Masquerade and Bells - so we can't really blame TAT for that. As for training grounds, Mao wanted to train at Chukyo University where they provided her with a private rink for training, and of course any skater would want to stay in a familiar environment. eg. Yuna may train in Canada but she lives within the sizeable Korean community in Toronto.
Mao may not seem like it, but simply looking at the decisions she has made over the past few seasons - leaving Arutunian right before Worlds, putting 2 3As in her LP, refusing to change any content in her programs, recycling the Masquerade - I feel she's got a pretty stubborn streak. She sticks with a decision, for better or for worse, and I do respect her for that, even if I find it frustrating. There's a fine line between persistence and butthead stubborn, however, and I think she's been toeing it.

It was Mao who decided to go for the two 3A's... "Team Mao" wanted to take the 3A out of her programs once she became inconsistent with them, Mao refused. Even the idea of losing the 3A has made her cry in interviews... it's something very important to her in skating... she knows the rules and the risks, so at the end of the day, it should be her choice whether or not to do it.

As for the 3A... I think the only way to truly rectify the problem is for the ISU to say "The 3A presents a higher degree of difficulty for ladies than it does for men. Very few ladies have ever completed it competition, while to be among the top in Mens, you have to have a 3A, and if you don't, then you need a quad." Amd by that reasoning, raise the base value of the 3A for ladies, leave it the same for men. I think the 8.2 is fine for Mens Skating, but a 9.0 - 9.5 is more realistic for Ladies.

 

[Ren]

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

It makes complete sense that she would go to Mr.Triple Axel for this. I suppose before he became her coach certain people have been asking why, if she was a jumping phenom, couldn't she land 3As like Mao? I am glad she listened to Brian and trained more wisely (i.e. focusing on her strengths). I am happy that he and David Wilson have helped Yu-Na find happiness in skating again.

 

[usethis]

Edit: OK I found it!
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets

1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good frow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure

Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it;

1) Applies to neither (Ms. Kim or Ms. Asada)
2) Applies to both
3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means
4) Advantage Ms. Kim
5) Applies to neither or both
6) Advantage Ms. Kim
7) Advantage Ms. Kim
8) Applies to both

It makes sense now why Ms. Kim racks up more GOEs (especially +2 on 3Lz/3T) from her jumps.

 

[Mafke]

It was Mao who decided to go for the two 3A's... "Team Mao" wanted to take the 3A out of her programs once she became inconsistent with them, Mao refused. Even the idea of losing the 3A has made her cry in interviews... it's something very important to her in skating... she knows the rules and the risks, so at the end of the day, it should be her choice whether or not to do it.

She's always needed the 3ax because most of the time she doesn't have enough other triples that she can count on. I recall that at various times her toeloop, salchow, lutz and loop have all been problematic for different reasons. that's a _lot_ of nemesis jumps even if they usually aren't problems at the same time.

 

[dlgpffps]

Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it
3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means

You're welcome

An example of the "varied position in the air" is the tano jump, during which one arm's extended overhead instead of folded at the chest. Brian Boitano's famous for this. Yu-na also does it in her LP. Mao did it in her LP last year (for her 3-2-2 combo). I have to check to see if she's still doing it. A delayed jump is one that takes place with minimum prerotation, i.e. the rotations are delayed until the skater gets into the air. This usually requires great height and speed. A good example would be Ilia Kulik's gorgeous 3A or the delayed single axels of yore.

Hope that helps

 

[Ryan O]

Elvis had the right to express his opinion on the men, but now I agree he is taking it too far. There's no need for him to speak up about the ladies' event before it's even finished. There isn't even a controversy yet. He doesn't need to get involved in this one.

 

[ehdtkqorl123]

Maybe he wants to get people's attention by raising a controversy. As he may have wished, I got to know who Stojko is. Good Job, Stojko!

 

[Blades of Passion]

There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.

You confuse and bewilder me.

 

[Ren]

3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means

On Youtube, I saw Yu-Na's LP skate at TEB (CBC commentary). The commentators said that her second triple lutz was "beautiful--and delayed."

 

[bethissoawesome]

Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it;

1) Applies to neither (Ms. Kim or Ms. Asada)
2) Applies to both
3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means
4) Advantage Ms. Kim
5) Applies to neither or both
6) Advantage Ms. Kim
7) Advantage Ms. Kim
8) Applies to both

It makes sense now why Ms. Kim racks up more GOEs (especially +2 on 3Lz/3T) from her jumps.

1) applies to both... unexpected entry could be like doing an Ina Bauer or spread eagle before the jump, even if there is a moment of preparation to get into the proper entry position for the jump... so say Yu-Na's Ina Bauer into her 2A+3T would be a variation on entry
2) is obvious, some jumps must be entered a certain way, 3-turn, etc.
3)varied position in the air could apply to Mao (raising one arm on the 2T on her 3A+2T), the raising of the one arm is a variation on the traditional position of the arms during the jump... a male skater made it very popular to have the one arm up... it makes the jump more difficult, because it is harder to generate the spin with the torso. Another example would be delaying the rotation (ie. not rotating the jump immediately upon take off), although this really is only normally seen on the axel... there even is a variation called the "delayed axel" (although not recognized by the CoP) where the skater does not rotate until the very end of the jump right before landing.
4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.
5)Mao has a better extension exiting her jumps... but both have creative exits on some (an example: Sasha would often lift her leg into a split after some jumps)

The rest is pretty self-explanatory

I saw someone mentioning spiral sequences and extensions and Yu-Na Kim's body type frail-ish or willowy body-type hindering that. I'm naturally flexible, but I've skated with others who or not... there is no reason that you can't have great extension with enough training, but skaters are earning +GOE's without it, so why bother? It takes A LOT of strength to hold your leg up (no catch-foot) and definitely wears you out. Try putting a 5lb wrap around weight on your ankle, lifting your leg back and see how fantastic it feels. Even if you are flexible, it takes a LOT of time to build up the strength (paticularly in the lower back, abs, hamstrings, gluts) to lift the leg higher. Just because you can do a split or are flexible doesn't mean that you can do it free standing (like in a spiral sequence). In Yu-Na's case, her flow, speed and ice coverage on her spiral grant her enough +GOEs so there really is no point in putting in tons of extra strength straining to be able to get the added extension... not to mention that by putting that added extension in, all she will be doing is tiring her muscles out even more, so it will wind up taking away from the quality of other elements (ie. jumps). In the end, the extra time to get it and the chance that it tires her out to the point where she won't get as high or as many +GOEs on other elements isn't worth it... but is it impossible for her to have that extension if she wanted it? No.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?

Yeah, I've not seen Gedevanishvili's performance, but it looks like she was thrown under the bus a little. She landed 3Lz and 3Toe-3Toe, yes?

 

[Nadia01]

It makes complete sense that she would go to Mr.Triple Axel for this. I suppose before he became her coach certain people have been asking why, if she was a jumping phenom, couldn't she land 3As like Mao? I am glad she listened to Brian and trained more wisely (i.e. focusing on her strengths). I am happy that he and David Wilson have helped Yu-Na find happiness in skating again.

She'd been suffering from back, hip & knee injuries. That's why. The pain was severe enough to make her consider giving up before she made the sr debut.

 

[Hsuhs]

She landed 3Lz and 3Toe-3Toe, yes?

Yes she did.
She skated well. Wagner turns out to be a really good choice for her.

 

[adoreyuna]

4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.

OMG!
Do you mean Yu-na's 2A and Mao's 3A
have a similar ice coverage ? I can't understand what ICE COVERAGE is which you said.

First photo made from this one Caution Swap!

 

[miki88]

She's always needed the 3ax because most of the time she doesn't have enough other triples that she can count on. I recall that at various times her toeloop, salchow, lutz and loop have all been problematic for different reasons. that's a _lot_ of nemesis jumps even if they usually aren't problems at the same time.

That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it. I think those who criticize Mao for leaving out jumps are being unfair (especially in regards to the lutz). Mao has been doing her lutz all the time prior to this season and people always criticize her for flutzing even after she corrected her edge. Now, she takes it out, some people continue to criticize her for not doing it:sheesh: