Stojko opposes the ladies result

[gourry]

I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully.

LOL You are so cute!! For a moment I was also wondering if there is a skater named Verdi. What a beautiful name for a musical skater!

 

[Phoenix347]

LOL You are so cute!! For a moment I was also wondering if there is a skater named Verdi. What a beautiful name for a musical skater!

Maybe Valentina Marchei should consider changing her name to Valentina Verdi... with her parents' consent of course!

 

[Mrs. P]

Oops, I feel silly now... I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully.

Put me in as part of the "I thought Verdi was a figure skater" club.
This thread is getting way OT....!!!

 

[Mathman]

Thanks Mathman, for that history! In lieu of this debate, would you raise the BV of the 3A and Quad to be higher in addition to the jump combinations? Why or why not?

I do not have a strong opinion about this one way or the other. The current values seem OK to me.

An international coaches group that gsrossano is associated with put forward an interesting scale of values last year based on the mathematical premise that as you add rotations the difficulty of the jump actually goes up exponentially instead of linearly.

So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

The way the CoP is actually constructed, though, it seems like the premium is on the margin -- how can you squeeze a few extra points out of the system to set yourself above all the others who are doing more or less the same thing.

For instance, under the current rules the only bonus you get for doing a triple-triple combination is that you get to do an extra triple jump within the total of seven jumping passes. You don't get the extra jump plus some bonus points on top of that for doing it in combination. So the idea is that the system provides the opportunity to squeeze ahead of everyone else , but it's up to you to seize it -- and it is hard to do so successfully.

 

[gourry]

So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

Which means we will see two Kevins on the podium every time? Scary....

 

[Phoenix347]

I do not have a strong opinion about this one way or the other. The current values seem OK to me.

An international coaches group that gsrossano is associated with put forward an interesting scale of values last year based on the mathematical premise that as you add rotations the difficulty of the jump actually goes up exponentially instead of linearly.

So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

The way the CoP is actually constructed, though, it seems like the premium is on the margin -- how can you squeeze a few extra points out of the system to set yourself above all the others who are doing more or less the same thing.

For instance, under the current rules the only bonus you get for doing a triple-triple combination is that you get to do an extra triple jump within the total of seven jumping passes. You don't get the extra jump plus some bonus points on top of that for doing it in combination. So the idea is that the system provides the opportunity to squeeze ahead of everyone else , but it's up to you to seize it -- and it is hard to do so successfully.

I think Plushy would love your new scoring system!

Edit: He might even start practicing his quintuple toe-loops!!

 

[ManyCairns]

Hurrah wrote:

"I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would mean that she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition. "


(Emphasis mine and also another poster who quoted this sentence.)

You know, I'm not even remotely inclined to lean toward being convinced (am I sounding dubious enough, lol?) that the results of any competition SHOULD have anything to do with whether a skater "makes history" during the competition, unless the skater "makes history" in some manner that positively affects their results within the sport's rules. The competition should be decided on the rules as they stand, not whether or not a move or set of moves "makes history". Plenty of skating "firsts" have been performed by skaters who don't go on to win or even medal in said history-making competition. I really don't think Mao should inherently win just because she might do 3 triple axels during a competition, wonderful though that would be. Just as Goebel was never a shoe-in because of the number of quads he performed, to give another specific example, or Ito with her magnificent triple axel -- or when a pair is the first to do a certain type of triple- or quad- throw, for a less specific but non-jump example!

 

[FlattFan]

Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
I think people are just bothered that this poster is basically creating a conspiracy theory that the system is rigged so Yuna win.
But let's say they change the rule and allows her to do that...So Mao would have a 3A (8.2) as her Axel jump. Then what would she have for her combo? She doesn't do a 3-3 so likely the combo would be a 3F-2T (6.8) and then maybe a 3L (5)for her triple-jump. Base value for jumpes = 20 Her base value for her SP on Tuesday =18.5. So it's a little bit better, but not by much.

Well, CoP's evolved so much that it's now more favorable to Yuna compare to Mao.
When CoP started, flutz wasn't penalized. Mao did 2 Flips, 2 Flutzes, 1 Axel, 1 Loop, 1 Toe in her first senior worlds. Her entire junior career included 3 flutzes/event.
That, coupled with the axel rule in the SP, pretty much sealed the deal for Mao. For the record, flutz should be penalized. I don't agree with the 2A in the SP.
Like you said, her base value would go up, but the difficulty would stay the same. She would have to do the 3A like she's doing now (same risk), doing the 3flip now (same risk), and her favorite loop jump. The gap between Yuna and Mao would be closer.

 

[jennylovskt]

So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

Thanks, MM! So it has the theoretical basis to raise the quad value more. I don't think it should raise to as high as 16.0 though.

I think Plushy would love your new scoring system!

Edit: He might even start practicing his quintuple toe-loops!!

Plushenko never said that he's going to do quintuple jumps. Lysacek did. Maybe Lysacek should start to practice it?

 

[mskater93]

Well, CoP's evolved so much that it's now more favorable to Yuna compare to Mao.
That, coupled with the axel rule in the SP, pretty much sealed the deal for Mao.

Men's SP rules for 2A or 3A is a relatively recent change, though (within the last 5 or 7 years). To change the ladies' rule will take a while.

I think you need to read the rules, understand the rules, and tailor your skating to maximize your points under the current rules based on your strengths. I skate under IJS at Adult Nationals and there are a lot of people who tailor their program to their strengths (high level spiral sequences in adult Gold ladies where single Axels can be iffy, higher level spins in Masters Intermediate/Novice without attempting double jumps, etc) and determine what will work BEST for them based on what they can do. I am not the most flexible of skaters, yet I've found ways to maximize my step/spiral sequence element and to gain higher levels on spins based on bullets I can complete without tearing muscles by trying to put my skate in my ear. This is where the comment about plan your skate and skate your plan comes in = put in the elements that will get you the max number of points CONSISTENTLY, work on the elements that are less consistent/less likely to attain 0 or higher GOEs and add them in slowly to improve your chances for a higher score. If something is not likely to score well or isn't part of the + GOE bullet checklist or PCS bullets, then don't work on it or don't do it.

 

[Mathman]

Oops, I feel silly now... I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully.

Here is up-and-comer Viola Verdi! (She Anglicized her name to Violet Greene. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pC9YyD1660

 

[kwanlover]

Elvis Stojko needs to get his head out of his butt, and return back from the Stone Age. All of these "arguments" that he throws out are all just for controversial attention. The result isn't even that close. Kim is nearly 5 points ahead, and if you look at the protocols, technically, their base marks were essentially identical with the except of 3a/2t = 9.5 base marks for Asada and 3z/3t = 10.0 base marks for Kim.

I fully agree with the low GOE for Asada's 3a/2t mostly because the exit out of it was SLOW and the 2t afterward was tiny and ALSO slow. Kim's 3z/3t was FAR superior as far as quality, and if we're going to get into the debate about difficulty. Yes, the 3a is MORE difficult, BUT think about the SECOND half of that combo, you're comparing a whole extra rotation that Kim does. Scott Hamilton made a good point in the SP commentary that a 3a/2t = 5.5 revolutions while a 3z/3t = 6 revolutions. On top of that, Kim opened the combo with the 2nd hardest triple possible, it's not like she was doing a 3s/3t or a 3t/3t.

 

[FlattFan]

Men's SP rules for 2A or 3A is a relatively recent change, though (within the last 5 or 7 years). To change the ladies' rule will take a while.

I think you need to read the rules, understand the rules, and tailor your skating to maximize your points under the current rules based on your strengths.

I'm pretty sure it was longer than that. I watched the 2002 Olympics and remember Yagudin did a triple axel that was a bit off axis. Plushenko also did a triple axel. It's been more than 8 years, considering the men event concluded, with Plushenko silver again. In fact, I think Plushenko SP layout is the same as Yagudin in 2002. I guess he can say he kept the level of the sport instead of pushed it.
Everyone needs to read the rules. The problem someone brought up was with the rules, not reading and comprehending the rules.

 

[Puppylove]

New to the forum, so if I make any stupid comments or offend anyone, apologies!

I can only catch up by watching what is posted on the internet - mainly European channels - as I live in the UK. Commentaries have been interesting; one of the UK eurosport boys (Chris/Simon) thought he slightly preferred Yuna to Mao & the other (Simon/Chris) thought Yuna was better by a fairly significant margin (didn't say by how many points); the French eurosport thought Yuna was better but by 3 points rather than 5; the Germans said, before Yuna's score came out, she would be ahead by about 5 points (...freaky).

As a complete layman who has been an avid figure skating fan for over 30 years, I find both ladies awsome but in VERY different ways. In my very personal and non-professional opinion, the difference between the two ladies' programmes, certainly for THIS season, is a bit like how a signature dish of an amazing chef comes together. I thought most of Mao's individual components in extreme snapshots (eg. from the moment the blade leaves the ice and lands back on), were superb, like the best ingredients one could find. Some of Yuna's were even better, some equally good and others less so. However, I felt that there was a difference worth 5 points in the way they were executed (cooked) and presented (placed in front of you - voila!) as a PROGRAMME lasting 2 mins 50 secs. I think that reflects the coaches and choreographers behind the programmes rather than the abilities of the two skaters. Even if the scoring system were to be altered by a point or so here and there, I'm not sure it would make that much difference for these particular programmes. Despite all this debate and opinions, including mine, if either makes mistakes tonight, she will lose, though.

I really hope ALL the ladies put up a fantastic event tonight, and really really hope no-one puts up NASTY (eg. "I hope so-and-so bombs tonight", "I'm so glad so-and-so fell") comments here!

 

[Mrs. P]

New to the forum, so if I make any stupid comments or offend anyone, apologies!

I can only catch up by watching what is posted on the internet - mainly European channels - as I live in the UK. Commentaries have been interesting; one of the UK eurosport boys (Chris/Simon) thought he slightly preferred Yuna to Mao & the other (Simon/Chris) thought Yuna was better by a fairly significant margin (didn't say by how many points); the French eurosport thought Yuna was better but by 3 points rather than 5; the Germans said, before Yuna's score came out, she would be ahead by about 5 points (...freaky).

As a complete layman who has been an avid figure skating fan for over 30 years, I find both ladies awsome but in VERY different ways. In my very personal and non-professional opinion, the difference between the two ladies' programmes, certainly for THIS season, is a bit like how a signature dish of an amazing chef comes together. I thought most of Mao's individual components in extreme snapshots (eg. from the moment the blade leaves the ice and lands back on), were superb, like the best ingredients one could find. Some of Yuna's were even better, some equally good and others less so. However, I felt that there was a difference worth 5 points in the way they were executed (cooked) and presented (placed in front of you - voila!) as a PROGRAMME lasting 2 mins 50 secs. I think that reflects the coaches and choreographers behind the programmes rather than the abilities of the two skaters. Even if the scoring system were to be altered by a point or so here and there, I'm not sure it would make that much difference for these particular programmes. Despite all this debate and opinions, including mine, if either makes mistakes tonight, she will lose, though.

I really hope ALL the ladies put up a fantastic event tonight, and really really hope no-one puts up NASTY (eg. "I hope so-and-so bombs tonight", "I'm so glad so-and-so fell") comments here!

Welcome to forum! As Mathman says, post long and often!
Also, those are lovely comments and very much appreciated!

 

[bethissoawesome]

One thing I would argue with the jumping protocols for CoP is that they shouldn't necessarily be the same for every discipline. The 3A is the easiest example: you can't be a top mens competitor if you don't have a 3A (unless you have a quad to make up for it), whereas very few ladies can actually do it, and only one pairs team has landed a (throw) 3A in competition. CoP reflects degree of difficulty... the harder the jump, the more points it's worth. CoP would be more accurate if the actual point value of the elements (in this case jumps, since this is really what this discussion is about) reflected the degree of difficult for a specific discipline (ladies, mens, pairs). A jump like a 3A should be worth more in ladies and pairs than it is in mens... perhaps even the 3F and 3Lz should be boosted a bit in ladies as well, since relatively few ladies skaters have both the 3Lz and 3F mastered (and consistently landed) correctly.

 

[heyang]

One thing I would argue with the jumping protocols for CoP is that they shouldn't necessarily be the same for every discipline. The 3A is the easiest example: you can't be a top mens competitor if you don't have a 3A (unless you have a quad to make up for it), whereas very few ladies can actually do it, and only one pairs team has landed a (throw) 3A in competition. CoP reflects degree of difficulty... the harder the jump, the more points it's worth. CoP would be more accurate if the actual point value of the elements (in this case jumps, since this is really what this discussion is about) reflected the degree of difficult for a specific discipline (ladies, mens, pairs). A jump like a 3A should be worth more in ladies and pairs than it is in mens... perhaps even the 3F and 3Lz should be boosted a bit in ladies as well, since relatively few ladies skaters have both the 3Lz and 3F mastered (and consistently landed) correctly.

Why do they need to be scaled by discipline? They are still the same movements - it's a matter of getting them in the right order of difficulty and alotting the appropriate base points. I would agree if the competiton was amongst all discplines - a handicap to level the playing field since there are limitations due to gender and 2 vs 1 person performing.

 

[gsrossano]

Interesting. Do you know when he made this statement?

Monday, quotes in Wall Street Journal

 

[Big Deal]

Mr. Stojko!
Believe in your eyes. Don"t make yourself an *******, please. You used to be a professional. Don't be cheap to be talked about you in any price!

 

[yangjie]

what stojko wanted to say is that 3a for the ladies and quads for men are underestimated under CoP.

is it?