- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
Their Olympic Records are:
Joannie: 2006-5th; 2010-3rd
Miki: 2006-15th; 2010-5th
I don't know how anyone can honestly claim that Ando is more competitive than Rochette.
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Joannie Rochette Rivalry For 2008-2010?
- Thread starter skateflatt
- Start date
Their Olympic Records are:
Joannie: 2006-5th; 2010-3rd
Miki: 2006-15th; 2010-5th
I don't know how anyone can honestly claim that Ando is more competitive than Rochette.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2010
No video for Mao's?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
yeah, I am sure Fumie Suguri will cry foul after seeing your statement.
Even the longer claim is subject to interpretation. Remind me, what place did Ando finish at the 2006 Olympics? And Rochette's?
Miki has been on the World podium twice though, and won a world title and won tons of stuff at the junior level. I'm not saying Miki is better than Joannie, I'm just saying their accomplishments are comparable and if anyone gets the edge, it's Miki because Joannie's successes have really only come during the past 2 seasons.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
You would rather not to underestimate Joannie Rochette. She surely does not have triple axel but has Lutz and Salchow. In the long program, 3A(s) is(or are) just one or two out of 12 elements.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
One season (08-09) does not a rivalry make.
It's a bit of a stretch to count the 09-10 season as Mao and Joannie have only met head-to-head once (Olympics), Japan Open was a glorified cheesefest. Maybe if Joannie continues her competitive skating career there may be a rivalry, but that doesn't seem likely at this moment. Besides, Joannie's competitive record pales in comparison to Mao--Mao is 2x World Champion, 2x 4CC champion, and 2x GPF champion while Joannie hasn't won a single ISU championship. Miki is closer to a rival to Joannie than Mao, but even Miki has a world title under her belt.
It's a bit of a stretch to count the 09-10 season as Mao and Joannie have only met head-to-head once (Olympics), Japan Open was a glorified cheesefest. Maybe if Joannie continues her competitive skating career there may be a rivalry, but that doesn't seem likely at this moment. Besides, Joannie's competitive record pales in comparison to Mao--Mao is 2x World Champion, 2x 4CC champion, and 2x GPF champion while Joannie hasn't won a single ISU championship. Miki is closer to a rival to Joannie than Mao, but even Miki has a world title under her belt.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
Believe it or not, only 0.26 points diff. head to head does say alot!:thumbsup:
Imo Joannie used to be ridged and tight but she really has found herself and I find her a joy to watch. Her new SOI exhibition is wonderful. And also imo Mao seemed to try to hard for me to really get into her programs for the past seasons. At the Olympic short she really came to life for me and then again at the 2010 Worlds she seemed closer to her pre 2008-2009 season self. Mao still has a awesome looking 3-3 even if it probably wouldn't get ratified.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu3whrnxpDs
Since Miki won the bronze at the 2009 worlds and finished 4th this season I think we shouldn't write her out of the picture yet. If she hits her jumps she's still a threat. I''ve never been a fan of her skating though I loved her 2006 programs.
Yu Na is a consistent and lovely skater who has come a long at the right time in history for her to truly dominate. If she can stay healthy she should be strong for years to come even if she doesn't improve her limited weaknesses. I think Mao and Mirai can get close to her if they hit their jumps good enough to get ratified and has good programs. I think Yu Na really had great programs this season and I loved her short nearly every season so I hope she stays around. I hope Joannie retires and pushes for more North American pro events and I hope Mao remembers to enjoy herself instead of trying too hard to be great. I hope Mirai skates like she did at nationals and the Olympics with slightly more rotated jumps then she can be a real contender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu3whrnxpDs
Since Miki won the bronze at the 2009 worlds and finished 4th this season I think we shouldn't write her out of the picture yet. If she hits her jumps she's still a threat. I''ve never been a fan of her skating though I loved her 2006 programs.
Yu Na is a consistent and lovely skater who has come a long at the right time in history for her to truly dominate. If she can stay healthy she should be strong for years to come even if she doesn't improve her limited weaknesses. I think Mao and Mirai can get close to her if they hit their jumps good enough to get ratified and has good programs. I think Yu Na really had great programs this season and I loved her short nearly every season so I hope she stays around. I hope Joannie retires and pushes for more North American pro events and I hope Mao remembers to enjoy herself instead of trying too hard to be great. I hope Mirai skates like she did at nationals and the Olympics with slightly more rotated jumps then she can be a real contender.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Yes, head-to-head does say a lot indeed. Mao and Joannie have met head-to-head nine times this Olympic quad in ISU competition.
Mao has topped Joannie 6 times out of 9 (2010 Olympics, 2007 and 2008 Worlds, 2008 4CC, 2008 GPF, 2007 Skate Canada) while Joannie has beat Mao 3 times all in the same season (2009 Worlds, 2009 4CC, 2008 TEB). If Joannie continues beating Mao, I'll be more convinced that they have a real rivalry.
Also, isn't it funny how statistics produce very different results when you adjust the size of the sample?
In other words, using your logic, Tara Lipinski should not have been considered a rival of Michelle Kwan?
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Using my logic, Tara Lipinski should stilll have been considered a rival of Michelle Kwan.
Tara and Michelle both competed on the senior circuit from 1995-1998, so it would be reasonable to only count Michelle's titles in the years that they were actually competing against each other (just as I had only compared Joannie and Mao starting from the 2006-2007 season). If we were to count number of ISU championships won during that timespan, Tara had 1 Olympic title, 1 world title and 1 Champion Series Final title to Michelle's 2 world titles and 1 Champion Series Final title (though Michelle's 1998 world title was won during Tara's absence). Those are very comparable records, especially given that Tara was virtually a nobody during the 95-96 season. True, Tara only really dominated Michelle for the 96-97 season, but Tara did also manage to win the biggest title of the 97-98 season in the midst of Michelle's dominance and moreover, Tara was only on the full senior competition circuit for two seasons.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
Tara actually won the Champion Series Final twice, once she beat MK in the 1997 season and the second she beat out Tanja Szweczenko in the 1998 season (MK had to sit out the event due to her toe injury). MK won 2 National titles defeating Tara; Tara defeated MK once at Nationals. MK did far better on the GP circuit than Tara. A bit of skating trivia: Lipinski NEVER won a single Grand Prix event; only the Final twice. MK, on the other hand, won all 4 of her GP events when she and Tara competed together from 1996-1997 and 1997-1998.
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That's pretty selective logic. You are omitting that Tara actually competed at the national level against Michelle prior to her winning the 97 U.S. National and not counting that Michelle completely dominated Tara for years prior to that surprise win in 97. Using your logic, since Tara only started to beat Michelle Kwan in 1997 and did not beat her in every single competition since either, including losing the 97 Skate America and 98 U.S. Nationals, which is at a fairly similar rate compared to the Asada/Rochette win/lose ratio since 2008 until 2010. I think your argument is suspect because it seems to me it is based on fairly selective data mining.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
No, I think you completely missed my point.
In post #25, the one you questioned, the original point of my post was although Joannie had consistently beat out Mao during the 2008-2009 season, I would hesitate calling it a rivalry as Mao's competitive record regarding ISU championships far outstrips Joannie's within the overall trajectory of their careers. (6-0).
This, however, is not the case with Tara and Michelle. Though Michelle dominated Tara for most of the 95-96 (though I am loath to even include the 95-96 season as Tara wasn't even fully on the senior circuit at that point) and 97-98 seasons, I am much less hesistant calling the Tara-Michelle matchup a rivalry as their competitive records regarding ISU championships are much more comparable within the years in which they were competing at the same time.
As for selective data mining, wouldn't that be the case if one ignores the years in which Mao was beating Joannie and only focused on their competitive results when Joannie started her rise during the 08-09 season?
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It is your arbitrary use of the stats that I question. For instance the 6-0 figure you used, you count the number of times Asada won ISU Championships, which included among others, this year's win at the 4CC when neither Rochette or Kim was even there. Rochette may not have won a single ISU Championship, but the problem with the usage of your number is that Asada actually lost some pretty important match ups in those ISU Championships against Rochette where there happens to be another girl by the name of Yu-Na Kim, which is why Rochette didn't win the title but beat Asada. One can also make an argument that since Asada failed to qualify for the GPF 2009, whereas Rochette did, the fact that Asada wasn't even there is a defeat on its own. So when you add things up: 2008 TEB, 2009 4CC, 2009 Worlds, 2009 Japan Open, 2009 GPF, and finished with a very close call at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics - Rochette has a clear plurality of wins over Asada. There is only Yu-Na Kim who can claim similar honor against Asada in the past two seasons. Yet, if you insist that Rochette should be compared to Ando and Lespito, then why aren't these women beating Asada at a similar frequency as Rochette? Another aspect that I am having difficulty with your argument is that there is always a recency component in the analysis of figure skating results. The fact that Fumie Suguri was a former World Silver Medalist, for instance, hardly means anything today. Therefore, if you want to quote results as far back as 2007, then by definition, the 2007 World Champion should be a hot item today but she clearly isn't. Therefore, my thinking is your analysis is flawed due to data mining and the fact you didn't weight the results based on recency, making your comparison less meaningful.
In the same vein, both Kostner and Lepisto have actually won ISU Championships compared to Rochette, who has zero, thanks to European Championship being significantly weaker compared to 4CC in ladies. Yet, I doubt anyone would use such stats to argue that Kostner and Lepisto are superior by the virtue of the number of ISU Championships they won. Hence, stats on their own are pretty meaningless unless they also made sense and logical argument or inferences can be made from them.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Just wanted to share this with everyone - Joannie's performance to "My Immortal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWycUL02yNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWycUL02yNM
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
Sometimes is not bad to read the title.
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- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
Thanks shine, OMG so touching~
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
Exactly! If Caro and Laura had had to face Yu-Na and Mao at Euros to win their titles the way Joannie and Miki have had to face them at 4CC, then Kostner and Lepisto most likely would not have those ISU titles, unless Kim and Asada bombed big time.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Not really.
In the 06-07 and 07-08 seasons, no one would argue that Asada and Rochette were rivals in any sense of the word other than the literal (aka, two competitors at the same events). Asada was in another league, Rochette was still struggling with consistency issues (she is now, admittedly). It's not really a question.
The question, as posed by the initial poster, has Rochette BECOME a rival for Asada? In the two seasons, she's beaten her more times than not (TEB 2008, 4CC 2009, Worlds 2009, Japan Open 2009 vs GPF 2008, WTT 2009, Olympics 2010), and their scores are often very close to each others. Now, whether you believe this is because Asada's skills have deteriorated (no 3-3 combination, too much focus on 3A), Rochette's have improved (consistency, jumps, PCS), both or neither is up in the air, of course.
That said, I sorta feel that a rivalry needs an off the ice component for it to be a memorable one: Plushenko-Yagudin, Asada-Kim, etc. This certainly doesn't.
