Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear

[seniorita]

I know, I know! I also found out on this thread that Lady Gaga has artistic substance. I always figured she was all schtick.

Of course she does ! I like Blades analysis, for skating, for Olympics and Gaga.

The part of my post that I was afraid you would respond to was the part about not answering PMs. I will do better, I promise.

Ha, my messages need time to be comprehended. No worries, everybody is switched on summer mode And I would write more if I knew what First Amendment means.

 

[i love to skate]

I do think an official went up to Johnny and congratulated him/told him they didn't expect him to skate as well as he did. However, I think he twisted this around in his mind to believe that the federation did not push for him enough.

To me, I find that this statement about the politicking to be similar to the one he made on his TV show when he was telling a family friend why he didn't medal. He said that "you can't have two skaters from the same country on the podium". Which of course is not true - the majority of the Olympics have had at least one discipline where skaters from the same country have ended up on the podium. Vancouver was no different - see the pairs result.

Johnny did not have a very strong team going into Vancouver. Galina was a poor choice for a coach as she did many things that hurt Johnny, such as taking out the choreography. Johnny still skates with a 6.0 mindset and did not adjust to the COP way of skating, especially in the last couple years. It is too bad he was never able to skate up to his potential in major competitions during the 2004-2006 years.

As for Gaga, I stick my opinion about her - all shock and no substance. Give me Beyonce any day of the week

 

[Mathman]

And I would write more if I knew what First Amendment means.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees certain rights to American citizens that. in principle, the government cannot abrogate. The most prominent is the right of freedom of speech.

I believe the exact wording is, "I can say anything I want on Golden Skate and no punk moderator can delete my post." Thousands died in the Revolutionary War to secure these rights. :yes:

 

[seniorita]

He said that "you can't have two skaters from the same country on the podium".

yes but you can have 3, Euros 1998!

As for Gaga, I stick my opinion about her - all shock and no substance. Give me Beyonce any day of the week

Beyonce has substance? :sheesh:Anyway, both keep their fame by image, one with shock and the other with curves...Gaga maybe seems more interesting, if only for the direction of her clips.

I believe the exact wording is, "I can say anything I want on Golden Skate and no punk moderator can delete my post."

I really think this should be added to forum guidelines.

 

[76olympics]

This may be off-topic, but it isn't off-skater...is anyone else wondering whether Johnny has begun writing the book that is due to come out in January 2011 ? It looks like he needs to really disappear off the public stage to write unless it is going to be a disappointing photo montage like Oksana Baiul's "Secret of Skating" was. I bought that sight unseen when it came out (from online bookseller) and it was chiefly clever page layout and photos with long captions or short columns of text.

I have a sinking feeling that Johnny may be headed towards something similar- although perhaps he might get into less hot water if the text is reduced based on his recent interviews.

 

[dorispulaski]

It's like Rachael Flatt complaining that she was neglected in the ladies' line-up. (Except she wouldn't be so ungracious as to complain.) .

Speaking of Rachael, if I were her, I'd be miffed that the US Olympic committee calendar has come out, and Mirai is pictured with Peggy Fleming, and touted as the US hope for Sochi.

 

[janetfan]

This may be off-topic, but it isn't off-skater...is anyone else wondering whether Johnny has begun writing the book that is due to come out in January 2011 ? It looks like he needs to really disappear off the public stage to write unless it is going to be a disappointing photo montage like Oksana Baiul's "Secret of Skating" was. I bought that sight unseen when it came out (from online bookseller) and it was chiefly clever page layout and photos with long captions or short columns of text.

I have a sinking feeling that Johnny may be headed towards something similar- although perhaps he might get into less hot water if the text is reduced based on his recent interviews.

I heard the book is coming along very well. At the moment I believe the working title is:

"The Days of Whine and Roses."

 

[Blades of Passion]

I do think an official went up to Johnny and congratulated him/told him they didn't expect him to skate as well as he did. However, I think he twisted this around in his mind to believe that the federation did not push for him enough.

Or you've twisted it around in your mind to believe that federations are fair to all of their skaters. Johnny was certainly not pushed as a medal contender by his federation. Although, it's not completely his federation's fault. The problem is that judges mark based upon track record and "momentum". If you don't have that, then you're not a contender at all. Only catastrophic skates by the upper field allows the "non contenders" to sometimes reach the podium, if they skate perfectly.

To me, I find that this statement about the politicking to be similar to the one he made on his TV show when he was telling a family friend why he didn't medal. He said that "you can't have two skaters from the same country on the podium". Which of course is not true - the majority of the Olympics have had at least one discipline where skaters from the same country have ended up on the podium. Vancouver was no different - see the pairs result.

If skaters are considered about equal, there is always an attempt to get different countries on the podium.

See the pairs result in the Short Program - 1. China, 2. Germany, 3. Russia. If the pairs had all skated clean in the LP as well, Pang/Tong would have been off the podium. I guarantee it.

See the Dance result - Belbin/Agosto pushed down into 4th by the Russian team despite most people saying the Russians had a terrible OD and not that much better of a FD (both teams sucked, though. I'll take Delobel/Schoenfelder for Bronze ).

Johnny still skates with a 6.0 mindset and did not adjust to the COP way of skating, especially in the last couple years.

He certainly did adjust to CoP skating, are you kidding? He made sure to get all of the jump combinations in, he made sure all of his spins were level 4, and he made sure all of his footwork was level 3.

Out of all the top competitors, it's Brian Joubert who has made the worst transition into CoP. He has never once done a performance where he maxed out all of his jumping passes. He always either leaves out the 3-3 in the LP or doesn't do the 3-jump combination (or both), and he frequently gets less than Level 4 on his spins.

 

[PolymerBob]

Heck, Kurt Browning didn't need any kind of medal to become one of the greatest skaters ever!

Kurt didn't need any kind of medal to become a 4 time world champion.

- please define "support" in this case. Is Johnny suggesting US Skating paid money or used other forms of bribery to get the judges of the men's events to mark Evan and Jeremy higher than Johnny?

I am also uncertain as to the nature of this "support". The Canadian federation wants Canadian skaters to win, and the French federation wants French skaters to win. So a federation supporting its skaters against other countries is irrelevant. The only support that might be possible is a federation supporting one of its skaters / teams over another.

While this has surely been attempted, I don’t think it’s often successful. After the 2009 U.S. Nationals, the USFSA seems to have supported Alissa with all their might. At 4CC, she finished 5 places below the National bronze medalist, and they still sent her to Worlds despite her poor performance. Then at Worlds, she finished 6 places below the National silver medalist. What good did support do?

 

[i love to skate]

Beyonce has substance? :sheesh:Anyway, both keep their fame by image, one with shock and the other with curves...Gaga maybe seems more interesting, if only for the direction of her clips.

Yes, in my opinion Beyonce has more substance than Lady Gaga. Plus, she can actually sing!

Well, I've got nothing else to say on Johnny. So I might as well end this post since all off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[Mathman]

I am also uncertain as to the nature of this "support". The Canadian federation wants Canadian skaters to win, and the French federation wants French skaters to win. So a federation supporting its skaters against other countries is irrelevant. The only support that might be possible is a federation supporting one of its skaters / teams over another.

While this has surely been attempted, I don’t think it’s often successful. After the 2009 U.S. Nationals, the USFSA seems to have supported Alissa with all their might. At 4CC, she finished 5 places below the National bronze medalist, and they still sent her to Worlds despite her poor performance. Then at Worlds, she finished 6 places below the National silver medalist. What good did support do?

I think the idea is to create a buzz. Here comes the new phenom (or the invincible champ)!!! Hold onto your hats everybody!!!

It's like a dog show, or a political primary campaign. Leading up to the big whoop, you try to plant the idea in the minds of the public and the judges that this year the Airedale is the terrier to beat. As Blades of Passion says, you want your skater to have Big Mo (momentum) on his side. Certainly this applied to the Lysacek Express last year. Despite letting Jeremy sneak in there at Nationals, Big Mo gave Evan an extra half point across the board in all subjective scoring categories.

Does this strategy work? Well, the Airedale has to do its part. In the case of Alissa Czysny,I think the USFSA was more like crossing their fingers and holding their breath than pushing their national champion that year. The international skating community was not swept off its feet. Plus, in the event, Alissa skated terribly at Four Continents and Worlds.

I think there is no doubt that it works at the lower levels of the sport, where the athletes are relatively unknown. If you are falling asleep trying to judge 50 intermediate girls all of about equal skill, and the famous caoch of one of them (who is also your friend) comes up and says, "hey Bob, I got a girl here that I think has some potential. Give her a look, OK?"

Well, you might give her a look.

 

[janetfan]

I am also uncertain as to the nature of this "support". The Canadian federation wants Canadian skaters to win, and the French federation wants French skaters to win. So a federation supporting its skaters against other countries is irrelevant. The only support that might be possible is a federation supporting one of its skaters / teams over another.

While this has surely been attempted, I don’t think it’s often successful. After the 2009 U.S. Nationals, the USFSA seems to have supported Alissa with all their might. At 4CC, she finished 5 places below the National bronze medalist, and they still sent her to Worlds despite her poor performance. Then at Worlds, she finished 6 places below the National silver medalist. What good did support do?

Is it possible for anyone to believe US Skating was not behind Michelle in 2002? And yet our own judge did not place her first which cost her the OGM. Talk about federation "support"

I don't care how much support US Skating gave to Evan - if he fell even once - judges from the other federations would have made sure Evan did not win. Then this so called "support" would have been shown to be little more than a myth.

I believe this "support" talk is valid and quite real at National competitions.
But to think this support can prop up a skater who has an off night at an international event seems a bit far fetched.

 

[Bluebonnet]

There was absolutely no way that Johnny could, would have gotten a medal of any color in 2010 Olympics, no matter how politics played a role. The best he could do, in my mind, was to move up one spot.

Yes, I believe that USFSA has pushed the other two Americans more by putting them more on the spotlights. Any briberies and illegal activities under the table between USFSA and the ISU judges regarding Lysacek and Abbott? The public doesn't know and it was highly unlikely. So by pushing Johnny Weir more than it has done, I believe, what USFSA could do was just more publicities on him which wouldn't do much to the result of the outcome. He was after all the third person in US men's team. What was going on in the judges' minds which might be involved in politics were beyound controll.

I believe if the "official" really said that, it was just an easy way out for them and paying a sympathy to upsetted Johnny and his coach. Johnny took it seriously and thought that he really had a chance for a medal. If it could make him feel better, it was fine. But in any situation, to put it out publicly and whine again and again wasn't really doing himself any favor. He skated all he could and still standing at the end of his skating didn't mean that his program and skating was better than the skaters who fell and placed in front of him.

The only skating that I felt unjustice to the point that it would change everything for Johnny if it wasn't done the way it was was 2008 Nationals. After that, Johnny was struggling on his style and technics to stay in about the same for these past a couple of years.

 

[Blades of Passion]

He skated all he could and still standing at the end of his skating didn't mean that his program and skating was better than the skaters who fell.

On its own this is one of the most sensible sentences from someone else in the thread, except it should be said of all three of Weir/Lysacek/Plushenko in comparison to Takahashi/Kozuka. arty:

 

[sorcerer]

I think Johnny's programs were fairly CoP friendly. I self-reqoute:

PCS is filled with each judge's subjectivity and prone to be affected by prejudice.
GOE is also like that, but still TES may be a little more objective than PCS.

Then, TES wise (SP and FS added) the order was:

Plushenko ... 133.81
Lysacek ..... 132.87
Weir .......... 122.57
Takahashi ... 122.38
Chan ......... 120.72
Kozuka ...... 120.54
Lambiel ...... 119.97

What is it that dropped Johnny from TES 3rd to TSS 6th?
The reaction of the croud in the arena is also mine.
It's not easy for me to see why Chan or Lambiel would go above Johnny with PCS.

Could it be that:
1) the judges' prejudice was that Johnny should place lower than the two?
2) the judges had in mind that there should be some courtesy to Europe as a balance between blocks?
3) the judges had in mind that there should be some courtesy to the event-organizing country?
... conscious or subconscious.

Or something more material as mentioned here? :

.... On he other hand, men's bronze medalist Philippe Candeloro said plainly, "Of course we (the French federation) make deals. If we didn't, we would never win any medals at all." .....

Or was the PCS given very properly?
(meaning Johnny's performances were lower in PCS by more than DOUBLE the difference in TES in which Johnny had the lead.)

 

[Bluebonnet]

On its own this is one of the most sensible sentences from someone else in the thread, except it should be said of all three of Weir/Lysacek/Plushenko in comparison to Takahashi/Kozuka. arty:

OT: I have to say that I think all three of 2010 Olympics medalists deserved the medals. It was unfortunate that Lysacek got the gold. Any other order of the podium would have calmed the long dispute afterwards a lot more. To me, Kozuka is on his way up but not yet there. His Patrick Chan's hands were bothering me.

It's not easy for me to see why Chan or Lambiel would go above Johnny with PCS.

Are you questioning that whether Lambiel's PCS should be above Johnny's? They were not on the same level for years already. It was unjustifiable to put Weir above Lambiel in any competitions by PCS. Weir's pretty pretty, and recycled movements could do just that much, not more.

 

[sorcerer]

..... Are you questioning that whether Lambiel's PCS should be above Johnny's .....

I'm questioning whether Chan's and especially Lambiel's PCS should have been higher with more than double the difference which Johnny had over them in TES, on THIS particular night.
Those who wrote here saying Johnny should have placed 4th are automatically saying the same thing.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Sure, a good thought - but unfortunately the ISU judges don't agree with you blades. They don't agree with your opinions at all regarding Evan. You have your opinions which are sometimes interesting but have no basis in the reality of ISU and the CoP.

My opinions certainly have basis with the reality of CoP. Weir has better edge quality, gave a better performance, and had better musical interpretation than Evan. Takahashi and Kozuka have FAR better edge quality than Evan, much better choreography, and FAR better musical interpretation.

Takahashi is the only person who was rewarded for that superior skating and artistic ability, since he was considered "in contention" whereas the other two were not. And the margin of superiority between him and Evan was not properly reflected in the PCS marks. If Evan is getting an 8.0 for skating skills, then Takahashi should be getting 10.0. The judges don't understand how to score the Program Components. Giving one skater an 8.0 and giving the other an 8.25 or 8.5 is not enough of a difference when one skater is clearly so much better.

In reality Evan's Program components should have looked something like this:

Skating Skills - 7.25
Transitions - 7.75
Performance - 7.0
Choreography - 7.0
Interpretation - 6.25

And Takahashi's should have been like:

Skating Skills - 9.0
Transitions - 7.0
Performance - 8.0
Choreography - 7.75
Interpretation - 8.0

That's a 9 point difference when you factor in the x2 weighting in the Long Program. Then factor in the points Takahashi unjustly lost on downgrades and on his Lutzes, plus he should have been ahead of Evan already after the SP...it's not difficult to see why someone would find Takahashi deserving of the Gold Medal and Evan not deserving of a podium spot (given that other skaters also similarly deserved higher marks than what they actually got).

Maybe you should be ranting against the CoP since all Evan does is try his best to skate up to it's rules and standards.

I do rant about CoP, a lot. This business about "trying his best" is nonsense, though. If you did your best and your best is a 7/10, that doesn't mean you deserved a Gold Medal. It's the exact same situation as Mirai and Flatt in the Women's competition. They both skated about the best they could with CoP-friendly programs and didn't receive medals since the Ladies who DID medal were seen as being superior artistically, despite making mistakes.

The only difference is Evan had momentum and clout on his side. He was never seen as that special internationally (notice how he routinely scored lower PCS than Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Joubert, Chan) but he managed to deliver as the home-town boy at 2009 Worlds against a relatively weak field. That changed everything. Suddenly he was some kind of amazing skater, even though he actually wasn't. There is absolutely no way Evan would have received those same marks at 2010 Olympics if he had gone in as the 3rd American and had never been on the international radar before.

The simple truth is your favorite skater has had a nice, long career. He even managed to once win a World bronze. But that is his most significant international medal........so let's not get carried away here and confuse him with a Yagudin....or even a Lysacek

Weir is not my favorite skater and when it comes to judging I don't give my favorites special credence for how they have performed in the past anyway. Each competition stands on its own. Notice how harshly I have criticized Lambiel and said he didn't deserve to be in the top 5 at the Olympics (and didn't even deserve to place above Joubert at Europeans last season)? Arguing about what medals a certain skater won is not a proper reflection of how they should have placed either. In my mind Evan has deserved one medal in his career at Worlds/Olympics - a Gold at 2009 Worlds. And how nice for him to win a World Championship in his home town. I would give Weir the Bronze at 2005 Worlds and the Bronze at 2010 Olympics. Not a staggering career either in terms of international results. Weir's artistry will always be remembered as superior, though. Skaters, choreographers, and lovers of the sport will actually return to Weir's programs in the future when they want to be inspired by the potential ice skating has. People won't rewatch Evan's performances, except to fill in footnotes of skating history within their memory.

 

[Jaana]

Johnny did not have a very strong team going into Vancouver. Galina was a poor choice for a coach as she did many things that hurt Johnny, such as taking out the choreography. Johnny still skates with a 6.0 mindset and did not adjust to the COP way of skating, especially in the last couple years. It is too bad he was never able to skate up to his potential in major competitions during the 2004-2006 years.

The question is why did Galina take out the choreography? I doubt that she did it to hurt Weir, a lot more more likely is that Weir is not able to skate to a more complicated choreography, if he hopes do succeed in jumping.

About Weir´s placement in freeskate: No way did he deserve to be ahead of Takahashi who was 5th. Maybe Takahashi should have been placed higher in the freeskate though? Anyway, Lambiel and Chan both had a more difficult choreography to skate than Weir.

 

[janetfan]

My opinions certainly have basis with the reality of CoP. Weir has better edge quality, gave a better performance, and had better musical interpretation than Evan. Takahashi and Kozuka have FAR better edge quality than Evan, much better choreography, and FAR better musical interpretation.

Takahashi is the only person who was rewarded for that superior skating and artistic ability, since he was considered "in contention" whereas the other two were not. And the margin of superiority between him and Evan was not properly reflected in the PCS marks. If Evan is getting an 8.0 for skating skills, then Takahashi should be getting 10.0. The judges don't understand how to score the Program Components. Giving one skater an 8.0 and giving the other an 8.25 or 8.5 is not enough of a difference when one skater is clearly so much better.

In reality Evan's Program components should have looked something like this:

Skating Skills - 7.25
Transitions - 7.75
Performance - 7.0
Choreography - 7.0
Interpretation - 6.25

And Takahashi's should have been like:

Skating Skills - 9.0
Transitions - 7.0
Performance - 8.0
Choreography - 7.75
Interpretation - 8.0

That's a 9 point difference when you factor in the x2 weighting in the Long Program. Then factor in the points Takahashi unjustly lost on downgrades and on his Lutzes, plus he should have been ahead of Evan already after the SP...it's not difficult to see why someone would find Takahashi deserving of the Gold Medal and Evan not deserving of a podium spot (given that other skaters also similarly deserved higher marks than what they actually got).



I do rant about CoP, a lot. This business about "trying his best" is nonsense, though. If you did your best and your best is a 7/10, that doesn't mean you deserved a Gold Medal. It's the exact same situation as Mirai and Flatt in the Women's competition. They both skated about the best they could with CoP-friendly programs and didn't receive medals since the Ladies who DID medal were seen as being superior artistically, despite making mistakes.

The only difference is Evan had momentum and clout on his side. He was never seen as that special internationally (notice how he routinely scored lower PCS than Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Joubert, Chan) but he managed to deliver as the home-town boy at 2009 Worlds against a relatively weak field. That changed everything. Suddenly he was some kind of amazing skater, even though he actually wasn't. There is absolutely no way Evan would have received those same marks at 2010 Olympics if he had gone in as the 3rd American and had never been on the international radar before.



Weir is not my favorite skater and when it comes to judging I don't give my favorites special credence for how they have performed in the past anyway. Each competition stands on its own. Notice how harshly I have criticized Lambiel and said he didn't deserve to be in the top 5 at the Olympics (and didn't even deserve to place above Joubert at Europeans last season)? Arguing about what medals a certain skater won is not a proper reflection of how they should have placed either. In my mind Evan has deserved one medal in his career at Worlds/Olympics - a Gold at 2009 Worlds. And how nice for him to win a World Championship in his home town. I would give Weir the Bronze at 2005 Worlds and the Bronze at 2010 Olympics. Not a staggering career either in terms of international results. Weir's artistry will always be remembered as superior, though. Skaters, choreographers, and lovers of the sport will actually return to Weir's programs in the future when they want to be inspired by the potential ice skating has. People won't rewatch Evan's performances, except to fill in footnotes of skating history within their memory.

Thanks for such a detailed and well thought out reply. Believe it or not, part of me can agree with most of what you wrote.
But I have a problem and it involves the rules. Even if I agree with many of your opinions I don't think they consider the rules objectively enough.

It is hard to find an ISU judge who does not consider performance as one of Evan's strengths. I can see how you don't like his style and to be honest i don't like it too much either. But for me to deny that Evan is a strong performer because taste-wise he is not my favorite could make my opinion questionable. If I were judging my first duty would be to follow the rules.

Choreography is another area where I agree with you. I don't like Evan's choreo too much - but unlike Plushy, Joubert and some others Evan has choreo throughout his program. I feel the same way about Rachael - her LP did not lack choreo but I did not like it, or her PE and IN very much. Unfortunately CoP has alot to do with quantity and level of difficulty on elements.
Do enough of them and even if it is not aesthetically pleasing you will get a similar score to what I would consider a more graceful skater.

Of course it matters that Evan tries his best and is able to skate well under pressure. His stamina, something that seems lacking in Weir helps Evan greatly. You don't like Evan's choreo and IN and yet he manages to bring a crowd to it's feet and typically ends his programs in a high energy mode. Judges reward this even if you don't like it.

I don't know how much young skaters will study Johnny in the future. If I was coaching a somewhat wooden young skater I think I might make him watch Lambiel to teach expression and IN. Or I would do what most coaches already do and have my skater study Janet Lynn.