- Joined
- May 15, 2009
You prefer the 6.0 vs CoP war
I thought we had enough of the Johnny vs Evan war already
Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear
- Thread starter Taan
- Start date
You prefer the 6.0 vs CoP war
I thought we had enough of the Johnny vs Evan war already
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
You prefer the 6.0 vs CoP war
I thought we had enough of the Johnny vs Evan war already
If we have to have a war to stir up the off season, those are much better to me.
Oh, well, your choice. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? I'll just stay away from it then.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Here is another Canadian view. Elvis Stojko (my hero) says Lysacek should be ashamed of himself for skating a long program that was no better than Brian Boitano's in 1988.
He thought Plushenko should have won handily, that Takahashi should have got better marks for at least trying a quad, and that Weir skated great and should have been placed ahead of sissy-boy Chan.
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/figure_skating/news?slug=es-thoughts021810
He thought Plushenko should have won handily, that Takahashi should have got better marks for at least trying a quad, and that Weir skated great and should have been placed ahead of sissy-boy Chan.
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/figure_skating/news?slug=es-thoughts021810
I much agree with you, and/but what you say does sometimes happen sometimes in GPs (not Final) or international B's.
Laura Lepisto's GP debut short program was like that. And Kozuka's and Akiko's first win.
Without such a thing happening, no new phenom will emerge to the top contenders.
But at Worlds and Olys (and maybe at GP Final) things are very different it seems.
IMO these are the games where political tradings are sometimes done hidden from the eyes of the public.
Or more probably, these are the games where the judges become dependant on the skaters reputations and the expectations of the judges themselves. Sometimes these expectations fall similar to what the results should really be, but as we all know, sometimes way different.
As much as I wanted to stay away from this topic... Kimmie Meissner did win Worlds in 2006, didn't she? She also placed 6th in Torino despite being 5th in her two only GP assignments that Fall.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Would you think from what Elvis has to say his mindset is back in the 6.0 era? And perhaps as I mentioned Orser is just a tad bit more familiar with CoP - and perhaps the Orser/Wilson team are pretty up to date on working the CoP?
My point was not about anything other than what Orser said after the Men's event ended. BTW, I have no idea what Orser may have thought about Dai, Johnny, Patrick or the others.
I guess for such wisdom we must rely on Elvis
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I share your sentiment. his jazzy SP of this past season was a step out of the box, but he only got into character after the difficult jumps were out of the way. That said, Evan has not shown any great diversity in his programs, although I feel like he tried to challenge himself (especially in the SP) this past year. Johnny complained about his results and expressed disappointment for years but honestly never was serious about changing his behavior, his disrespect towards the judges and USFSA and his program style. he says he "worked hard" but it seems like he just intensified his prior habits and patterns.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
It's true that Johnny hasn't tried anything much different, but at least his standard (actually paying attention to the music and displaying sensitivity and personality) is more appealing than just going through the motions and then suddenly coming alive at the end of your program to "bring the crowd to its feet." 
Evan's programs last season were in no way a challenge or a stretch. His "Firebird" was the exact same bombastic thing he always does, there was really no attempt at trying to tell a story or create a specific mood. The arm movement he does after his Triple Flip is almost interesting, as if he is acting like a bird, but he doesn't really sell it and there's no other choreography in the program which builds on that concept. The program was at least better than his SP's from the previous 2 years, though, because the general bombastic-ness was an acceptable match for the music and he did have a nice highlight at the beginning of the circular footwork.
His "Scheherazade" was a total rehash all the way through. It was a little better than "Tosca" I suppose, because he didn't try phony dramatics, and also a little better than "Rhapsody in Blue" because the head-grabbing is at least less ridiculous when set to war-horse music, but it wasn't special or interesting whatsoever. Evan's best LP is "Carmen" because it forced him to have an ounce of inner reflection during the slow section, which broke up the monotony of the rest of his skating. His footwork wasn't all convoluted back then either. Plus that music just naturally builds to an objectively satisfying conclusion better than almost any other piece of music.
If Evan has ever tried to stretch himself in the past 4 years, it was with the music selection for his 2009 programs. In the end they were the same vacuous thing, though. His "Bolero" had little sense of precise, metered rhythm and his "Rhapsody in Blue" had very little sense of joy, whimsy, or light dance quality.
Evan's programs last season were in no way a challenge or a stretch. His "Firebird" was the exact same bombastic thing he always does, there was really no attempt at trying to tell a story or create a specific mood. The arm movement he does after his Triple Flip is almost interesting, as if he is acting like a bird, but he doesn't really sell it and there's no other choreography in the program which builds on that concept. The program was at least better than his SP's from the previous 2 years, though, because the general bombastic-ness was an acceptable match for the music and he did have a nice highlight at the beginning of the circular footwork.
His "Scheherazade" was a total rehash all the way through. It was a little better than "Tosca" I suppose, because he didn't try phony dramatics, and also a little better than "Rhapsody in Blue" because the head-grabbing is at least less ridiculous when set to war-horse music, but it wasn't special or interesting whatsoever. Evan's best LP is "Carmen" because it forced him to have an ounce of inner reflection during the slow section, which broke up the monotony of the rest of his skating. His footwork wasn't all convoluted back then either. Plus that music just naturally builds to an objectively satisfying conclusion better than almost any other piece of music.
If Evan has ever tried to stretch himself in the past 4 years, it was with the music selection for his 2009 programs. In the end they were the same vacuous thing, though. His "Bolero" had little sense of precise, metered rhythm and his "Rhapsody in Blue" had very little sense of joy, whimsy, or light dance quality.
That Worlds was when Shizuka or Irena were out of the competition, but still, '06 seems to have been a year in which the Worlds stayed out of preoccupations, comparatively.
I would like every Worlds or Olys to be that way.
It would be nicer not having to doubt any existence of politicking or prejudice at all.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
I liked his Rhapsody in Blue.
It wasn't that bad but the performance wasn't anything specific to match the exact nuance of RiB ....
That reminds me of Blade's post a while back:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...spect-more-now&p=508270&viewfull=1#post508270
This post was very positively received in this forum at that time IIRC.
ETA: I'm one of those who dislike Johnny's behaviours, BUT I get excited to think how Johnny would perform to RiB. I would very much like to see his interpretation of the main moods that constitute this great masterpiece music.
Johnny has this something to make you imagine like that. Never bores me.
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Yeah, but I found the performance Blades was raving about in that post to be narcoleptic. I'm not saying that Lysacek's performance/program was a masterpiece or anything, but I liked it. Very "All-American charm"
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Goebel's program was such a joy. Far more subtle details and far more exciting highlights, all of which had an actual purpose in relation to the music. Doing 3 Quads (one of which was very deep in the program) is 100x harder than a few extra spin positions and convoluted footwork too.
Hey, but you're not American. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.
All 3 of the medal winners at 2002 Olympics were superior to the entire field at 2010 Olympics.
Hey, but you're not American. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.
All 3 of the medal winners at 2002 Olympics were superior to the entire field at 2010 Olympics.
Definetely not all them: Robin Cousins (BBC) and Rudi Cern (German ZDF) thought that Lysacek should win. Besides, I have not seen all clips as there are many European languages I don´t speak... Maybe you are able to speak most European languages to make such a sweeping statement? Besides, as our Finnish Eurosport commentators saw Lysacek´s freeskate afterwards during a Zamboni break, they also understood that Lysacek deserved to win the gold.
No, they were not equal, Weir had a more costly error in his triple flip (-1.20), altogether he got -1.74 for his errors. Lysacek´s errors were altogether -0.96, so Lysacek was cleaner than Weir!
Lysacek also got more technical points for his spins and footwork than Weir: spins 11.80 (Lysacek) against 9.30 (Weir) and footwork 9.96 (Lysacek) against 8.00 (Weir).
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Oh my, that was exactly what I thought also!
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- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
That is EXACTLY what I thought. At the start of the night I felt that if Plushenko stayed on his feet he would win. After his sloppy, but fall-less performance with only (1?) doubled jump, I naturally assumed the gold was his. I also felt that Dai had Evan beat after his perfomance, and even though I am a huge Evan fan I would have had Dai a bit ahead. The Artistry and SS of the latter are simply worlds above either Evan or Plushy.
We all know the marks are inflated in Worlds and Olys in comparison to GPs.
To add, this inflation isn't that much given to marks of earlier groups.
So it shows that this inflation is not necessarily only the reflection of the improvements of the skaters' performances as the season gets close to its end.
This inflation also makes the disparity between the marks of the final 2 groups and the earlier groups larger in Worlds and Olys than in GPs. (I havn't followed the statistics, but logically induced.)
I think this inflation is where the problem begins/resides.
After all, "to push" someone is to give him/her this inflation .... is this paraphrase adequate?
To add, this inflation isn't that much given to marks of earlier groups.
So it shows that this inflation is not necessarily only the reflection of the improvements of the skaters' performances as the season gets close to its end.
This inflation also makes the disparity between the marks of the final 2 groups and the earlier groups larger in Worlds and Olys than in GPs. (I havn't followed the statistics, but logically induced.)
I think this inflation is where the problem begins/resides.
After all, "to push" someone is to give him/her this inflation .... is this paraphrase adequate?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Uh, no, that doesn't mean Evan was cleaner it simply means the judges gave him higher scores. If you've been paying attention in the thread, I've been talking about how judges hold up the favored skaters. I would have given Lysacek a +1 on his 3Lutz-3Toe and solo 3Lutz, -1 on his second Triple Axel, and +0 on every other jumping pass. That's a total of +.8 points in the overall score from GOE on jumps. The judges gave him a total of +5.24.
On the other tech elements I would have given Lysacek a +0 on the Circular Step, +1 on the flying sit spin, +0 on the change of foot sit spin, +1 on the Straightline Step, and +1 on the combination spin. That totals up to +1.5 points on non-jump elements. The judges gave him a total of +4.4. Adding the total technical +GOE up from the judges, I feel Lysacek was overscored by 7.34 points there. That's massive. On the PCS I think he was even more overscored, as I would have had him about 10 points lower there total. So his Long Program should have been worth 150 points, not 167.
Plushenko was similarly overscored across the board. Lambiel was overscored on the footwork and PCS. Chan was overscored on the spins and PCS. Oda was overscored on the PCS.
Kozuka was the only person who was actually underscored by the judges, and he was underscored across the board. Takahashi was scored about right overall by the judges, it's the tech caller who screwed him over. Weir was also scored pretty correctly, it's just that most everyone around him was receiving ridiculously inflated scores.
Kudos to judge #1 for scoring Weir ahead of Lysacek and kudos to judge #2 for actually giving Kozuka the credit he deserved and placing him as the 2nd best of the whole event.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Yes, that's what I think, and it's not an endorsement of COP.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
Actually it was a planned 2axel.
I thought there was a topic about which broadcast said what and we had reached up to mexico!
Each one listens to broadcast that is convienient 
Well eurosport, british, french , italian, spanish, greek thought the contrary so that was convenient for me. Speaking of R.Cousins, I want to confess that he confused me so much, not in Lp, one should see his commentary of Sp in Plushenko's program, I believe he really was watching another program cause he is complementing it from head to toe. I really think he watched an old tape cause the biggest uber would not be craving that much about that specific sp skate.- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Goebel's program was such a joy. Far more subtle details and far more exciting highlights, all of which had an actual purpose in relation to the music. Doing 3 Quads (one of which was very deep in the program) is 100x harder than a few extra spin positions and convoluted footwork too.
Hey, but you're not American. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.
1. True
2. How do you mean?
As for the 2002 field > 2010 field, I'll agree that the performances were largely better. Not the programs, nor would I rewatch a majority of them, whereas I can think of a dozen men's programs from 2010 that I'd rewatch in a heartbeat.
