LOL! Because the 2Lo and 2T each worths like 1 point and half a piece. Do you think limiting them to just two each makes any practical sense? It doesn't pass the common sense test, does it? Plus, these double jumps are usually included as part of jump combos or should I say, they tend to form the backbone of jump combos and rarely ever executed as stand alone jumps, not at the elite level anyway. Double Axels are often executed as stand alone element and in the past, the GOE on the 2A makes it a very attractive choice and smartly taken advantage of by no other than Yu Na Kim who used it as a Tripe Loop replacement. Limiting such jumps to just two each may hinder skaters' ability to complete jump combos as well. Imagine trying to keep up with how many 2T and/or 2Lo you have already done in the program so not to be hit with extra/repeated element penalty and have the element voided. It would be a nightmare I think. Skaters have trouble keep up with how many combo slots they still have left as it is, see Oda and Chan, adding a rule that impacts the backbone of jump combo would make it very difficult to manage.
What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies
- Thread starter Mrs. P
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LOL! Because the 2Lo and 2T each worths like 1 point and half a piece. Do you think limiting them to just two each makes any practical sense? It doesn't pass the common sense test, does it? Plus, these double jumps are usually included as part of jump combos or should I say, they tend to form the backbone of jump combos and rarely ever executed as stand alone jumps, not at the elite level anyway. Double Axels are often executed as stand alone element and in the past, the GOE on the 2A makes it a very attractive choice and smartly taken advantage of by no other than Yu Na Kim who used it as a Tripe Loop replacement. Limiting such jumps to just two each may hinder skaters' ability to complete jump combos as well. Imagine trying to keep up with how many 2T and/or 2Lo you have already done in the program so not to be hit with extra/repeated element penalty and have the element voided. It would be a nightmare I think. Skaters have trouble keep up with how many combo slots they still have left as it is, see Oda and Chan, adding a rule that impacts the backbone of jump combo would make it very difficult to manage.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I disagree with every part of this assertion.
Wonderlen's statement was neither wrong nor misleading.
Wonderlen's point was that a skater cannot get +3 GOE on most triple jumps any more. For instance, on a tirple Lutz, last year a skater could get up to 3 extra points in GOE, but this year the most that skater can earn is 2.1 extra points.
You "corrected" that to, the judges can still hit +++ on their keyboard, but that translates into only 2.1 points instead of 3. That is mere semantic pedantry, in my opinion. I disagree that casual fans or anyone else would be confused by the content of Wonderlen's statement.
I disagree that Wonderlen's statement was false, I disagree that it was "necessary" to debunk anything, and I certainly disagree that there was "no other way."
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If they judged the Sport on a Scale of 0-10 for each element, the GoEs would be totally unnecessary. Isn't that the way of Judged Sports?
If they allowed Free Skating instead of Long Program, the PCs would change dramatically.
If they allowed Free Skating instead of Long Program, the PCs would change dramatically.
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Not really. Most judged sports do have marks for difficulty and for execution.
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And I believe they show up in the Scale of 0-10. In Figure Skating if the scale were used, you would have:
Entry into an element; 2points
Rotations of an element (jumps or spins); 2points
Exit (landings) from an element; 2 points
and 4 points to compare the overall element with the text book definition.
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- Jun 3, 2009
Except not really. Nothing you write takes into account that a triple axel is harder than a double toe. Both have an entry, multiple rotations, exist and a comparison to text book definition.
Why 0-10? Why not 0-5? Because if it helps you think of it that way, you can argue that right now, elements are marked on a scale of 0 (-3 GOE) to 6 (+3 GOE) with a technical difficulty mark added on (base value).
Why 0-10? Why not 0-5? Because if it helps you think of it that way, you can argue that right now, elements are marked on a scale of 0 (-3 GOE) to 6 (+3 GOE) with a technical difficulty mark added on (base value).
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Ando's PCS were higher than Rochette at the 2009 Worlds which was absurd. They were higher than Asada's too. The only one gifted at the 2009 Worlds was Miki Ando (Miki overscore Ando being held up, what else is new, LOL!). Had she gotten the PCS she deserved she wouldnt have even been on the podium there and lucked out with such easy GP assignments in 09-2010 which cemented her spot on the 2010 Olympic team which based on Nationals she might not have even gotten otherwise.
You can disagree till your heart content, I have no interest in arguing for the sake of arguing.
Here is the said person's original post:
Point #1 : Does the new rule eliminate +3 GOE as a execution bonus value added to an element (as opposed to +++)?
Fact: wonderlan3000 made no mention of it being specific to any jump or element in particular. However, the new rule does not eliminate the possibility of adding +3.00 in value to a very well executed Element. Such bonus is possible on a Level 4 Step Sequence, Choreography Step/Spiral Sequence, Triple Axel and all types of Quadruple jumps.
Mathman's claim: "Wonderlen's point was that a skater cannot get +3 GOE on most triple jumps any more."
Reply: Unless you are a mind reader, and maybe you are, it is not possible to know wonderland3000 was referring to "most triple jumps". Since the said poster never said it is specific to most triple jumps or anything for that matter. Even in the context of ladies, jumps are not the only elements that they can score +3.00 GOE. As mentioned above, several other elements qualify as well and ladies have been getting some +3 GOE from the judges for these elements, notably ChSp. I choose to believe that most people are not mind readers and semantics do matter in writing, when someone writes things like this, you have to be careful about your wording so not to confuse people. You want to disagree with that, fine by me, I have nothing more to say on this regard.
Point #2: The most GOE Yu Na Kim can possibly get on a Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo is +2.00 today, but after factoring random elimination of 2 scores, the most she can get is +1.80.
Fact: In theory, a skater can get a maximum of +2.10 GOE for a Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo today. It's not +2.00 unless someone wants to make a claim that mathematically, 2.00 = 2.10. :sheesh: Also, random elimination of 2 scores no longer apply. Even if it still does, it would not lower the ceiling to just +1.80 GOE either. For example, assuming in theory, Kim received eight +++ signs for her 3Lz+3T combo and one ++ sign at the 2011 World Championship. Random elimination would eliminate two marks, but the highest & lowest drop will surely take out the single ++ sign if the latter was not already randomly withdrawn. The net result is still +2.10 in GOE. Random elimination does not create an artificial ceiling to the GOE received by the skater, it never did and certainly can't one year after it was eliminated.
Mathman's claim: "but this year the most that skater can earn is 2.1 extra points.
You "corrected" that to, the judges can still hit +++ on their keyboard, but that translates into only 2.1 points instead of 3. That is mere semantic pedantry, in my opinion. I disagree that casual fans or anyone else would be confused by the content of Wonderlen's statement."
Reply: Since the said poster never stated +2.10 in the post, it surely was very confusing because +++ on keyboard = +2.10, not +2.00. If wonderlan3000 had used +2.10 in the post, it would have been clearer. The later mention of +1.80 is even more confusing since it was mathematically wrong and telling people of a ceiling that never existed, not in the past and not today. You honestly don't find this confusing???
Then perhaps, you can explain how did he come up with the +1.80 after random elimination of 2 scores and that's the most a skater can get. The reality is the quoted statement contains so many factually incorrect references and numbers that goes beyond just some mere "semantic pedantry".Last from Mathman: "I disagree that Wonderlen's statement was false"
Boy, after the dissection above, you have a lot of courage for willing to defend a statement that contains so many factually false claims. But you should know better because you are a knowledgeable skating fan. Like I said, please explain to us how you get to the +1.80 GOE number using the Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo under 2011 rules. If you can't, you just shoot yourself in the foot and that's the end of the story.
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Flatt would never be placed above Korpi or Lepisto if all 3 skated their best. Murakami would not either. The judges love the Finns, there is no way they are going to be dumped down in 8th and 9th if all skate well. If Kostner skated her best she would be placed over Czisny, especialy if she is doing something harder than a triple loop by then.
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Kostner's best over Czisny's best? Very debatable. Their ISU personal bests are only 4 pts apart (in favor of Carolina) but Alissa's is 4 months ago, Carolina's 3 years ago. Of course if you're comparing Kostner's best v. Czisny's worst....
Also, Flatt's PB is far above Korpi's. Lepisto is another story, but I'm not sure she's likely to skate her best at this Worlds (much as I'd love to see it).
Also, Flatt's PB is far above Korpi's. Lepisto is another story, but I'm not sure she's likely to skate her best at this Worlds (much as I'd love to see it).
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Another way combo jumps are unfairly scored under the COP is the fact that the GOE values are the same as they would be for a solo jump. For instance, let's say a skater does a beautiful tano 3lutz/tano 2toe combo (Adam Rippon for instance). The most he could get on GOE for that combo is +2.1. If he did them separately, he could get a combined GOE boost of +2.7. This is even worse for 3/3 combos, where the max GOE for the 3/3 is +2.1, while separately the two jumps can get +4.2.
But wait, isn't this mitigated by the fact that negative GOE is also halved? In some cases, yes. Let's say a skater does a 3</2< jump combo of some kind, again the max negative GOE is -2.1 vs. -2.7 separately. However, there are other cases where negative GOE is made worse by the fact that the jumps are done in combo.
For instance, if a skater does a 3lutz/3loop< (Miki Ando for instance), and the 3lutz is beautiful and huge while the 3loop gets an UR call, that skater may get a GOE of -1.4. If that skater did the two jumps separately with the same UR call on the 3loop, though, that skater would still have the negative GOE of -1.4 on the loop, but a +GOE on the 3lutz that may make up for it.
Or in another case, a skater splats on the second jump of a combo, s/he then gets a -2.1, and wipes out any +GOE s/he may have gotten for landing that first jump, since a negative GOE is mandatory for falls.
The COP system makes absolutely no distinction between the difficulty of the jumps combined in base value, and even penalizes skaters for doing more difficult combinations. For instance, a 2axel/3toe and then a 3lutz is worth exactly as much as a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel in base value. But in GOE, it's a different story. The GOE scale used is based on the hardest jump attempted. So for a 2a/3toe, the max GOE is +2.1. Same for the solo 3lutz. Same for the 3lutz/3toe, but a 2axel only gets a max GOE of +1.5.
So yes, all else being equal, doing a 2axel/3toe then a 3lutz will earn more points than the more difficult jump layout of a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel. This is patently ridiculous, but it is one of the reasons why we're seeing so freaking many 2axel/3toe combos now. Not only is it easier for skaters to maximize their jumping passes by doing a 3toe after a 2axel, but it increases the overall +GOE they can get.
But wait, isn't this mitigated by the fact that negative GOE is also halved? In some cases, yes. Let's say a skater does a 3</2< jump combo of some kind, again the max negative GOE is -2.1 vs. -2.7 separately. However, there are other cases where negative GOE is made worse by the fact that the jumps are done in combo.
For instance, if a skater does a 3lutz/3loop< (Miki Ando for instance), and the 3lutz is beautiful and huge while the 3loop gets an UR call, that skater may get a GOE of -1.4. If that skater did the two jumps separately with the same UR call on the 3loop, though, that skater would still have the negative GOE of -1.4 on the loop, but a +GOE on the 3lutz that may make up for it.
Or in another case, a skater splats on the second jump of a combo, s/he then gets a -2.1, and wipes out any +GOE s/he may have gotten for landing that first jump, since a negative GOE is mandatory for falls.
The COP system makes absolutely no distinction between the difficulty of the jumps combined in base value, and even penalizes skaters for doing more difficult combinations. For instance, a 2axel/3toe and then a 3lutz is worth exactly as much as a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel in base value. But in GOE, it's a different story. The GOE scale used is based on the hardest jump attempted. So for a 2a/3toe, the max GOE is +2.1. Same for the solo 3lutz. Same for the 3lutz/3toe, but a 2axel only gets a max GOE of +1.5.
So yes, all else being equal, doing a 2axel/3toe then a 3lutz will earn more points than the more difficult jump layout of a 3lutz/3toe followed by a 2axel. This is patently ridiculous, but it is one of the reasons why we're seeing so freaking many 2axel/3toe combos now. Not only is it easier for skaters to maximize their jumping passes by doing a 3toe after a 2axel, but it increases the overall +GOE they can get.
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Kostner's best isnt even skating cleanly though since she never has in a long program (atleast not with scaled down content). So skating your best and skating cleanly are two different topics for Kostner, it depends which we are making final results based on for some skaters.
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- Jul 11, 2003
I prefer to leave the difficulty with the Base Values. A 3A has more base value than a 2A, etc.
Just a suggestion as it appears that way in other sports, and Entry, Rotation, Landing could change to 3 points each, with 1 point to determine whether it included footwork into the take off, counter rotation if required, and perfectly landed jumps.
As you may be aware, I would like to dump the SP for an individual element contest without music. But those Artristy fans would never by that, and give the Free Skate back to the skaters.
Excellent point. Never thought about it that way. Maybe you should write to ISU!
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- Oct 19, 2009
You didn't really add much to my original post. I already addressed the point about freeing up a jumping pass. If YuNa didn't want to put in a 3Lo, what could she use in the extra jumping slot she would gain by doing the 3-3? She isn't getting directly rewarded for it, that is my gripe. It is contingent on her adding yet another skill on top of her 3-3. An analogy would be: a skater who does a 4T would not gain any extra base value on it over the 3A unless he incorporated all the other triple jumps. There have been skaters in the past who left out the 3A and did the 4T. So should their 4T get only a base value that is equivalent to the 3A, or should the 4T be rewarded in its own right?
Good point.
I'm not just talking about practically, I think it's stupid and ugly to see someone only adding on 2Lo's or 2T's in their combinations. If someone is already doing two 3T's and then adds three 2T's to her combinations, that's five of the same type of jump (*cough* Lepisto.) People complained about YuNa because her scores were high, but stylistically I find the above scenario worse. And if they thought that doing what YuNa did was so easy, why didn't more ladies do it? (hint: because most weren't doing 3-3's as successfully/reliably. Or, Mirai did the same last season, but she had to do two relatively difficult combos: 2A-3T and 3Lo-2A seq.) What happens if you pop or downgrade a planned 3Lo or 3T and possibly get a combo nullified? Don't plan combos with all the same double jumps, and/or consider doing a sequence combination without 3Lo or 3T.
Yes, thanks for pointing this out and doing the number crunching.
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- Sep 14, 2008
Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.
Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:
3Lutz-3Toe
3Flip
3Sal-2Toe
----------
2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
3Lutz
3Sal
2Axel
Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:
3Lutz-3Toe
3Flip
3Sal-2Toe
----------
2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
3Lutz
3Sal
2Axel
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- Jan 7, 2011
Le gasp. Blades of Passion, OMG! When the assassins come for you know that your sacrifice is appreciated.
Quick calculation shows that the base value of Yuna's planned jumps add up to exactly 43. For comparison, the layout that Miki used at GPF, Japanese Nationals and now 4cc net her 44.36 in base value.
However, the base value of Miki's SP jumps are 16.2 compared to Yuna's SP jumps that come up to 18.7.
So overall, Yuna still has a 1.14 advantage in the value of her planned jumps compared to Miki.
Quick calculation shows that the base value of Yuna's planned jumps add up to exactly 43. For comparison, the layout that Miki used at GPF, Japanese Nationals and now 4cc net her 44.36 in base value.
However, the base value of Miki's SP jumps are 16.2 compared to Yuna's SP jumps that come up to 18.7.
So overall, Yuna still has a 1.14 advantage in the value of her planned jumps compared to Miki.
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You know what BOP, you already revealed her jump layout, anything on her SP? :think: Any more details on her programs?
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It's exactly the same as before, as the only new rule affecting the SP is the omission of the spiral sequence. Since she's doing 3Lz+3T in the LP, it's safe to assume she'll do the same in the SP.
It's too bad she's taking out the 2A+3T. I daresay nobody does that combination better, especially with a spread-eagle or ina bauer entrance. And it's ironic considering how many more skaters are doing that combination this season as result of the new rules, that those same rules have made Yuna omit the combo she's done every season since her junior years.
