Ladies - Long Program

[Joesitz (RIP)]

:scratch: It´s strange, some friends of mine who are dancers, ballet dancers and choreographers have exactly the opposite opinion. They all said Patrick was stiff, had awkward arm movement, bad posture and coordination and his interpretation is very robotic and inexpressive. They laughed most of the time while watching Phantom of the Opera and I felt very embarrassed.

Not everyone in the dance world agree with each other either. Julie Taymar's rendition of The Spiderman, is not going well but there are some who saw in previews and liked it.

 

[Mathman]

:scratch: It´s strange, some friends of mine who are dancers, ballet dancers and choreographers have exactly the opposite opinion. They all said Patrick was stiff, had awkward arm movement, bad posture and coordination and his interpretation is very robotic and inexpressive.

Skaters are not dancers. Of course when people in the world of dance compare skaters to dancers they will say -- "Hey, dancers are better dancers than skaters are."

Chan skated great. In particular, Chan has outstanding posture and carriage for a skater.

Skaters perform in big weighted boots on a slippery surface. Then propel themselves across the ice by thrusting forward. While gliding on an edge they cant to the side. You cannot display a dancer's open-chested carriage while skating. You cannot point your toes. You cannot get your leg straight up in heavy skates without a hand assist. Your arms must perform repeated balance checks, however awkward. You fall down a lot (something dancers never do.) The music cannot lie at the core of the performance because you are trying to eke out a quad, something you can barely accomplish at all, never mind doing it "musically."

It is just a different animal that needs to be judged on its own merits, not by comparison to the standards of other artistic disciplines.

 

[skfan]

Skaters are not dancers. Of course when people in the world of dance compare skaters to dancers they will say -- "Hey, dancers are better dancers than skaters are."

Chan skated great. In particular, Chan has outstanding posture and carriage for a skater.

Skaters perform in big weighted boots on a slippery surface. Then propel themselves across the ice by thrusting forward. While gliding on an edge they cant to the side. You cannot display a dancer's open-chested carriage while skating. You cannot point your toes. You cannot get your leg straight up in heavy skates without a hand assist. Your arms must perform repeated balance checks, however awkward. You fall down a lot (something dancers never do.) The music cannot lie at the core of the performance because you are trying to eke out a quad, something you can barely accomplish at all, never mind doing it "musically."

It is just a different animal that needs to be judged on its own merits, not by comparison to the standards or other artistic disciplines.

oh come on, math, what is this... stuff i'm reading? have you lost your edge?

skaters CAN point their toes--just not all the time. ask dick and he'll tell you all about sasha cohen. even non-balletic michelle kwan managed to, when she wanted to have a spiral that can compete with nicole bobek's, back in the 95-96 season. and i have seen plenty of dancers fall on stage, thank you NYCB and ABT for helping me to appreciate the heroic effort it takes to achieve the positions, leaps and balances dancers do.

that said, i see nothing wrong with two people with expertise in dance having different opinions on patrick chan. i'm sure if you ask two different former ballerinas they'll have different opinions of how important toe pointing and such is in a discipline so different from theirs. *goes and secretly cuts up mathman's newly arrived patrick chan fan club card*

 

[Mathman]

Skaters CAN point their toes--just not all the time. ask dick and he'll tell you all about sasha cohen. even non-balletic michelle kwan managed to, when she wanted to have a spiral that can compete with nicole bobek's, back in the 95-96 season.

My point is that skaters cannot point their toes (in skating boots) the way dancers can point their toes in ballet slippers.

Similarly, a skater can have good posture. But he cannot maintain a dancer's posture while stroking.

On the other hand, dancers may try to glide across the stage, but they can't do it like skaters can.

Sasha and Michelle "pointing their toes" would be laughed off the stage in a dance performance.

http://wiktionary.wiki.ccsd.edu/file/view/michelle_kwan_2.jpg/117097163/michelle_kwan_2.jpg

 

[prettykeys]

Skaters are not dancers. Of course when people in the world of dance compare skaters to dancers they will say -- "Hey, dancers are better dancers than skaters are."

Chan skated great. In particular, Chan has outstanding posture and carriage for a skater.

Skaters perform in big weighted boots on a slippery surface. Then propel themselves across the ice by thrusting forward. While gliding on an edge they cant to the side. You cannot display a dancer's open-chested carriage while skating. You cannot point your toes. You cannot get your leg straight up in heavy skates without a hand assist. Your arms must perform repeated balance checks, however awkward. You fall down a lot (something dancers never do.) The music cannot lie at the core of the performance because you are trying to eke out a quad, something you can barely accomplish at all, never mind doing it "musically."

It is just a different animal that needs to be judged on its own merits, not by comparison to the standards of other artistic disciplines.

I agree with this entire post (except the "dancers don't fall" part ), but especially the last sentence.

When Dick mentions skaters who "point their toes" in skating boots, it's a relative pointing of the toes. Compared to a dancer's toe-pointing, it looks ridiculous. Another dancer's comments that I've read explained that ALL skaters look like they have flexed feet to her no matter what, so she had to learn to appreciate figure skating by its own unique standards.

I don't dance nor figure skate, and I had the darnedest time trying to figure out what the heck pointed feet in figure skating were supposed to look like, because I had the same problem as the dancer I mentioned.

Edit: Compare Michelle's beautiful pointed-boot to this: http://mountingandcounting.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ballet_dancer1.jpg

Looks nothing alike.

 

[skfan]

My point is that skaters cannot point their toes (in skating boots) the way dancers can point their toes in ballet slippers.

Similarly, a skater can have good posture. But he cannot maintain a dancer's posture while stroking.

On the other hand, dancers may try to glide across the stage, but they can't do it like skaters can.

Sasha and Michelle "pointing their toes" would be laughed off the stage in a dance performance.

http://wiktionary.wiki.ccsd.edu/file/view/michelle_kwan_2.jpg/117097163/michelle_kwan_2.jpg

IIRC, i never said anything about pointing toes while stroking. i said skaters can point their toes, just not all the time.

thanks for that picture, but i said MK 95-96 for a reason. go back and look at romanza, especially skate canada '95. MK had already started to slack off toe pointing in the spirals as early as in the '99 'kissing you' program. it isn't intuitive to her, certainly not ingrained--it took effort and remembering and i think her attention to that aspect lapsed. just because i love MK doesn't mean i'm blind to deficiencies in her skating.

true, skaters cannot point toes in skating boots like dancers can in slippers, but to say they just can't, never, not at all, is to obliterate all gradations, wipe out all the greys and say, there's only black and white. to me, there is a point where not even making an effort to point one's toes creates a line that's sufficiently disruptive that it's unaesthetic, even ugly. surely you can see the difference between sasha's toe point vs. MK's , YNK's, even though none of them will pass for a dancer. i for one greatly appreciated the greater stretch and better toe-point in YNK's spiral in arirang--that moment had not only great emotional impact, because of the music and choreography, but also great beauty for me, because of the effort YNK made to improve stretch & toe-pointing in her spiral, though i've yet to see improvement in the layback foot position.

that said, MK is still my favorite, because it isn't just about striking positions, it's also about flow and emotional projection, among other things. i just find it odd hearing you make such a blanket statement, but i've said my piece. if you remain unconvinced, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Mathman]

(except the "dancers don't fall" part

Well, you know what they say,. "Hardwood is slippery."

...go back and look at romanza, especially skate canada '95.

http://michellekwan.fateback.com/images/92-99/9511512.jpg

Here's Sssha:

http://gofigureskating.com/people/img/SashaCohen.jpg

 

[ILoveFigures]

This is figure skating we are talking about. It's not the same as dancing.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Skaters are not dancers. Of course when people in the world of dance compare skaters to dancers they will say -- "Hey, dancers are better dancers than skaters are."

Chan skated great. In particular, Chan has outstanding posture and carriage for a skater.

Skaters perform in big weighted boots on a slippery surface. Then propel themselves across the ice by thrusting forward. While gliding on an edge they cant to the side. You cannot display a dancer's open-chested carriage while skating. You cannot point your toes. You cannot get your leg straight up in heavy skates without a hand assist. Your arms must perform repeated balance checks, however awkward. You fall down a lot (something dancers never do.) The music cannot lie at the core of the performance because you are trying to eke out a quad, something you can barely accomplish at all, never mind doing it "musically."

It is just a different animal that needs to be judged on its own merits, not by comparison to the standards of other artistic disciplines.

While I agree that skating =/= dancing, I am confused where you get some of your ideas here. I've both skated and danced, with more years dance experience than skating, and I find that I can skate with an open, wide back most of the time, and that I can indeed lift my foot, weighty skate and all, without necessarily needing a hand assist, especially into a high arabesque position. I can use my head and arms expressively even within the confines of needing to check my turns. Yes, toe point is limited, but there is definately a range through which I can point and flex my foot, and I can use turn out to give my legs and toes a more attractive profile and maximize the appearance of toe point. I don't have to skate "over the music" instead of "to the music" just because I have to do jumps. There is definately room in skating to bring in dance techniques and experience. Just ask an ice dancer!

Patrick Chan is fairly graceful for a skater, but he could do more with his carriage and choreography- he could especially use more wide-ranging choreography as many of his programs have the same range of expression.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome, MoonlightSkater. Thanks for joining us.

My remarks were in response to the post by Ciocio (#718 above). Ciocio reported that he/she watched worlds with a group of “dancers, ballet dancers and choreographers” and that they found Patrick stiff, awkward, robotic, uncoordinated and with bad posture. They laughed at Patrick throughout his performance, and Ciocio him/herself “felt very embarrassed.”

My point was that it is not fair to measure one artistic discipline by the standards of another. Yes, a skater can point her toes, but she can’t point her toes like dancers do. You can achieve a wonderful arabesque position on the ice, but on the dance floor you can do this:

http://www.pacificballet.org/images/arabesque.gif

Here is an arabesque position in gymnastics:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/6333/arabesque1dg.jpg

It is not fair to laugh at the gymnast’s position by saying that it is not as good as the dancer's. (Especially since the gymnast is about to do some kind of furious tumbling cartwheeel sommersault thingy on a four-inch beam. )

Here is a super split jump.

http://gofigureskating.com/img/compare/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

We would be silly to demand this:

http://www.ballet.co.uk/images/abt/gs_corsaire_david_hallberg_split_jump_500.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This is figure skating we are talking about. It's not the same as dancing.

Solo figure skaters do their thing on ice with metal skates. Dancers do not use gimmicks to entertain the public. Figure Skating is a form of Acrobatic Dancing albeit on ice. Nothing wrong with that. But that's what it is: Acrobatics on Ice.

If I go to a Dance presentation, I expect to see Dance. When I go to a Figure Skating presentation, I expect to see acrobatic skating.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I can't really imagine a group of dancers, ballet teachers, choreographers laughing at a skater. Any of the above that I know maybe would like to see more dance-like positions or carriage here or there , but they absolutely have an appreciation of the skill and athleticism displayed by the skater..so I'm a bit at the original story , here.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can't really imagine a group of dancers, ballet teachers, choreographers laughing at a skater. Any of the above that I know maybe would like to see more dance-like positions or carriage here or there , but they absolutely have an appreciation of the skill and athleticism displayed by the skater..so I'm a bit at the original story , here.

I agree, if and only if, one looks at it as a Sport and not something comparable to one of the great artistic achievements in the world. Skaters can not bend that rigid skate as a dancer can bend his foot. The competitive skater is limited, but a few who have perfected their skating skills often perform musically as dance-like. I've seen some SOI performances much better than competitive skating performances.
No one laughs at a skater, but a dancer is not likely to switch slippers to blades.


There is much more freedom in dancing than in figure skating.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Welcome, MoonlightSkater. Thanks for joining us.

My remarks were in response to the post by Ciocio (#718 above). Ciocio reported that he/she watched worlds with a group of “dancers, ballet dancers and choreographers” and that they found Patrick stiff, awkward, robotic, uncoordinated and with bad posture. They laughed at Patrick throughout his performance, and Ciocio him/herself “felt very embarrassed.”

My point was that it is not fair to measure one artistic discipline by the standards of another. Yes, a skater can point her toes, but she can’t point her toes like dancers do. You can achieve a wonderful arabesque position on the ice, but on the dance floor you can do this:

http://www.pacificballet.org/images/arabesque.gif

Here is an arabesque position in gymnastics:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/6333/arabesque1dg.jpg

It is not fair to laugh at the gymnast’s position by saying that it is not as good as the dancer's. (Especially since the gymnast is about to do some kind of furious tumbling cartwheeel sommersault thingy on a four-inch beam. )

Here is a super split jump.

http://gofigureskating.com/img/compare/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

We would be silly to demand this:

http://www.ballet.co.uk/images/abt/gs_corsaire_david_hallberg_split_jump_500.jpg

I agreed that skating and dance (and for that, gymnastics) are all different worlds and cannot be judged in the same manner. However, I've done all three (gymnastics from a really young to age 18, dance from age 4 till present, skating as a replacement for gymnastics- I needed something artistic and athletic that I could compete in as I missed it too much!). Having done all three I can say that some things definately translate, and that it is not too much to ask to see some similar technique in some skills. Some things don't translate as well (toe point in skates, for example). Some things do (general carriage, musicality, interpretation, athleticism, good port de bras, etc).

Regarding the original story, I pointed out that while Patrick Chan has good flow (and, for that, very good edges), his expression and carriage can be improved, and this is an area that dancers would immediately recognize. It is not unrealistic to expect him to be able to develop those qualities further, as it is possible to skate with an open back through footwork, choreography, spirals and edges, etc..., and we do judge skaters on their interpretation. I wouldn't laugh at his performance, but I can understand some criticism. Regarding those who laughed, though, I'd like to see them land a quad jump, even on the floor from two feet- there is a difference for you in which skating gets the advantage.

On a side note, Nastia's arabesques on beam were nice, but I have seen better in gymnastics. She was moving quickly through a position in an athletic manner. Holding an arabesque on toe is different. I have a lovely picture of Ana Porgras holding an arabesque on floor, but it's too small, pixel wise, to enlarge to a degree that would show up well in a forum. Also, I don't think I can post it until I have 25 posts here.

Perhaps we should start a separate thread somewhere to discuss the differences, similarities, and translation between these artistic sports and dance? Would there be interest in such a thread?

 

[MoonlightSkater]

There is much more freedom in dancing than in figure skating.

Yes, and no. Dance allows more freedom of body placement, but the flow of gliding on edges allows a whole different type of expression that isn't necessarily possible in dance.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, and no. Dance allows more freedom of body placement, but the flow of gliding on edges allows a whole different type of expression that isn't necessarily possible in dance.

Have you ever been to a ballet? So much flows. Bourees, Glisades, pas de coleur, etc. You haven't seen the flow in staged dancing. But you do see metal hitting ice as only in acrobatics. No?

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Have you ever been to a ballet? So much flows. Bourees, Glisades, pas de coleur, etc. You haven't seen the flow in staged dancing. But you do see metal hitting ice as only in acrobatics. No?

I've danced in ballets, and I've seen many. Yes, glissades, chenes, pas de bourres, etc, provide flow, and the best dancers can create moments of seemingly effortless movement across the stage. It is not, however, quite the same thing as skating. Skaters can enjoy movement for choreography that dancers must do in a single spot, and the edges create a different look to the movements. For instance, a spiral may just be a sustained arabesque position, but doing it on an edge, or better yet in a serpentine pattern, creates a whole new aesthetic to the skill. Rockers and counters allow a change of direction and edge all at once, and the skater can hold a number of body positions througout the turn. Spread eagles are just a second position on an edge, Ina Bauers an open fourth, but they attain a new quality when done with speed, on an edge. I'd like to see a ballet dancer try to emulate Yuna's Ina into double Axle. No matter how closely they manage the body positions, it's not the same without the glide.

I'm not saying skating is better than ballet; I love both. But the nature of skating lends itself to do certain things better just as the nature of ballet lends itself to doing other things best.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^^
You are correct. That is the nature of Dance on the Floor, the Ice, the Pool, the Basketball Court. Indeed, make it Flow. I do appreciate the Flow in figure skating. In fact, I demand it. I cringe when a skater takes a long preparation to do an element.

In ballet, you must be aware of, there are no tricks. Everything must be executed without pauses because it must be timed to the music. The elements in ballet are Steps - not Tricks. Since figure skating is also a sport, tricks are important, but not necessarily tied to the beat and rhythm of the music. I do not see that flow when there is so much emphasis for the preparation of the elements. Few skaters have that ability. From the US, I would say Jason Brown, and that kid, Chen 'dance to the music'. It's refreshing.

 

[Olympia]

I've danced in ballets, and I've seen many. Yes, glissades, chenes, pas de bourres, etc, provide flow, and the best dancers can create moments of seemingly effortless movement across the stage. It is not, however, quite the same thing as skating. Skaters can enjoy movement for choreography that dancers must do in a single spot, and the edges create a different look to the movements. For instance, a spiral may just be a sustained arabesque position, but doing it on an edge, or better yet in a serpentine pattern, creates a whole new aesthetic to the skill. Rockers and counters allow a change of direction and edge all at once, and the skater can hold a number of body positions througout the turn. Spread eagles are just a second position on an edge, Ina Bauers an open fourth, but they attain a new quality when done with speed, on an edge. I'd like to see a ballet dancer try to emulate Yuna's Ina into double Axle. No matter how closely they manage the body positions, it's not the same without the glide.

I'm not saying skating is better than ballet; I love both. But the nature of skating lends itself to do certain things better just as the nature of ballet lends itself to doing other things best.

An emphatic ditto from me! In some ways, each of these two things fills a void the other can't touch. Isn't it great that we have both?

By the way, are you familiar with Katherine Healy? As a child she was the subject of the book A Very Young Figure Skater, but she also trained in ballet. She worked as a ballerina in companies in London and Vienna and now coaches dancers, but she has also done some skating through the years. This video shows a bit of both of her skills:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_QhuJrDVW0

 

[Robeye]

An emphatic ditto from me! In some ways, each of these two things fills a void the other can't touch. Isn't it great that we have both?

By the way, are you familiar with Katherine Healy? As a child she was the subject of the book A Very Young Figure Skater, but she also trained in ballet. She worked as a ballerina in companies in London and Vienna and now coaches dancers, but she has also done some skating through the years. This video shows a bit of both of her skills:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_QhuJrDVW0

Thanks very much for this, Olympia.

I am ashamed to say that this is the first time I've ever seen Katherine Healy. But based on this vid alone, it seems to me that she has, as a skater, the most breathtaking balletic (or ballet-like) extension, lines, flexibility and positions that I've ever seen. I mean, forget all the talk of Sasha, Mirai, or whoever, there is no comparison, in my eyes (this is not to diss those skaters or anything, just saying that Katherine's formal ballet training is unmistakeable).

But as you and MoonlightSkaters and others point out, absolutely correctly, in my view, ballet and skating have very different requirements, in particular in the parameters governing movement, and the fact that skaters can choose from a broader palette of dance styles, including but not exclusive to ballet.

The difference in governing parameters struck me in one of the split-screen moments (a skating Katherine side by side with the ballerina Katherine). In the skating half, she has her leg extended, but compared to the ballet half of the image her movement seems a bit sluggish, the extension just a bit strained, and the foot wavers just a bit. The obvious explanation is that the extension is being done with a weighty boot hanging at the end of the line while making an effort to maintain her balance on the relatively frictionless ice.

These questions are equal parts ignorance and curiosity: was Katherine somewhat slow in her skating? That was my initial impression from the clip, but I'm not familiar with her entire body of work.

Also, how was she in her jumps? I thought the split jump she did was electric in its attack and authority. But what about rotational jumps? I thought I saw her doing one, but it seemed very demure and small. Am I missing something not shown on the vid (of course, I understand that she never really pursued skating at the highest competitive levels)?