U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

[Serious Business]

My real problem with this reprimand and fine is that as John Baldwin pointed out in his interview, this situation has happened countless times before, with skaters skating with injuries of varying magnitude without telling the USFS with no repercussions afterwards. And then for the first time in history, the USFS fines Rachael Flatt for this. Is there a particularly pressing reason to start with Rachael? Did she do something else egregious and this was the only rule they could punish her on? No and no.

There are those who are suddenly sticklers for the rules who say this is all fine and good because it's in the rules. But a lot of things are in rules, laws and contracts that never get enforced. For instance, Facebook's user agreement says users are not to lie on Facebook. Imagine if Facebook actually went after that one, the place would empty out right quick. Or if the NYPD tried to arrest everybody who jaywalked in the city, they'd get about .0001% of them and still overcrowd the jails. The point is: there are rules and laws in place that can penalize infractions both minor and major, with the implicit understanding that the powers that be will only invoke them in extreme situations, usually in conjunction with other rules.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, even if Rachael had told USFS about her injury, she'd still have competed at Worlds at both segments of the competition, and the results wouldn't have been any different. Breaking tradition to punish Rachael does nothing except humiliate and discourage a hardworking skater.

 

[clairecloutier]

So the US federation has a real problem with 2 Ladies returning with 2 berths but no problem with 3 Men returning with 2 berths?

What is the comparison here? The U.S. sent 3 men to Worlds, all of whom actually skated well and, I would argue, to the best of their ability at this point in time. They may not have won any medals, but that doesn't really matter. The point is they were prepared, they skated the best they could, they achieved the best results they could probably realistically hope for right now, and they represented the federation well.

The same cannot be said of Rachael Flatt. She was not competition-ready (due to the injury) and she did not skate well. She simply was not capable of skating well at that point in time; therefore she should have withdrawn and allowed someone else to represent the federation.

 

[R.D.]

My real problem with this reprimand and fine is that as John Baldwin pointed out in his interview, this situation has happened countless times before, with skaters skating with injuries of varying magnitude without telling the USFS with no repercussions afterwards. And then for the first time in history, the USFS fines Rachael Flatt for this. Is there a particularly pressing reason to start with Rachael? Did she do something else egregious and this was the only rule they could punish her on? No and no.

While there may be something there, there's also the possibility that they know something that we don't (and the other skaters don't for that matter). They're the ones that looked into it, and obviously saw enough evidence to warrant their action.

 

[pangtongfan]

This is all but a message from the USFSA screaming RETIRE NOW GIRL! If she doesnt take the hint she is in for a long and very upsetting season me thinks. Some people here called me a basher or Flatt hater when I suggested she should retire before Nationals. I am not a hater, and I have actually liked Flatt in the past. It is plainly obvious both her skating and career have already peaked though and with something far more valuable to her future in the offing (full time college) it is best for her to focus on that rather then go downhill as a skater. And some crowed when my prediction of her to miss the World team ended up wrong, but only through a combination of a poor competition by Nagasu and some generous scoring of Flatt by Nationals. Well I hope those same people are still so excited after seeing how Flatt fared at Worlds and what has transpired for her and the U.S thanks to the USFSA misguided choice to continue their preferential treatment of the sinking Rachael Flatt ship.

 

[Mathman]

...she should have withdrawn and allowed someone else to represent the federation.

I don't think skaters look at it that way. I think they are there, not to represent their federations, but to compete for the World Championship.

I don't think Michelle Kwan was overjoyed that the U.S. team won the ladies Olympic gold medal in 1998.

This is all but a message from the USFSA screaming RETIRE NOW GIRL!

I hope that the USFSA is not in the business of screaming at skaters that they ought to retire.

What would the USFSA have to gain (or lose) if a skater continues to compete or not? How would Rachael continuing to compete impede any other skater's progress, or undermine any agenda of the USFSA?

 

[Violet Bliss]

So the US federation has a real problem with 2 Ladies returning with 2 berths but no problem with 3 Men returning with 2 berths?

What is the comparison here? The U.S. sent 3 men to Worlds, all of whom actually skated well and, I would argue, to the best of their ability at this point in time. They may not have won any medals, but that doesn't really matter. The point is they were prepared, they skated the best they could, they achieved the best results they could probably realistically hope for right now, and they represented the federation well. The same cannot be said of Rachael Flatt. She was not competition-ready (due to the injury) and she did not skate well. She simply was not capable of skating well at that point in time; therefore she should have withdrawn and allowed someone else to represent the federation.

The comparison is not between the skaters but the situations. As you explained, Flatt can be faulted but not the men. So whose fault was it that a stong federation with a history and current depth of male talents came away with such poor showing when their representatives did their best? One way or another, the federation is not doing its job, something they are probably more reluctant to look at than fingering a girl for the situation in the Ladies' discipline which is no more severe than in the Men's.

 

[NMURA]

So the US federation has a real problem with 2 Ladies returning with 2 berths but no problem with 3 Men returning with 2 berths?

That's exactly the case. They expected Csizny and Flatt to recover 3 spots, which is reasonably possible. Flatt was considered to be more reliable than Nagasu and they have chosen Flatt for that mission. I don't think she outskated Nagasu at US nationals convincingly. Flatt was not well received by the international judges and the result could be different if they were judging. Flatt failed the given mission. She must face the consequences.

The USFS didn't have the same expectation for men. If they were so keen on 3 spots, they should have sent those three men to 4CC to gain some WS points. Otherwise (and in reality), they would have suffered disadvantages due to early skating orders. Plus, there was one spot they could afford to waste. If there were 2 spots from the beginning, I doubt Ryan Bradley would be chosen. The past records show that he doesn't have the ability to score high enough even when he skates fairly good, and he doesn't have a reasonable hope to make it to Sochi.

 

[BackStage Barbie]

This whole thing is completely ridiculous. Since when is a skater competing injured a new thing? Here is my theory.....

USFSA has backed Rachael Flatt as its "top" female skater for the past 2-3 season and she has yet to deliver a world medal (though no other US lady has since Kimmie Meissner). Because USFSA doesn't want to look bad for sending a skater to Worlds who fails to deliver, they have decided to blow the injury out of proportion and
use Rachael as a scapegoat because they have such poor methods of choosing the world team. I really feel terrible for poor Rachael and I just wish I could give her a hug.

 

[FlattFan]

That's exactly the case. They expected Csizny and Flatt to recover 3 spots, which is reasonably possible. Flatt was considered to be more reliable than Nagasu and they have chosen Flatt for that mission. I don't think she outskated Nagasu at US nationals convincingly. Flatt was not well received by the international judges and the result could be different if they were judging. Flatt failed the given mission. She must face the consequences.

They chose her for that mission? She failed, now she must be publicly shamed. How medieval!

In case people forget, Nagasu was lifeless at Nationals. Even 2 times world champion Miki Ando got crap PCS during 2010 for delivering uninspiring programs.

If there were 2 spots from the beginning, I doubt Ryan Bradley would be chosen. The past records show that he doesn't have the ability to score high enough even when he skates fairly good, and he doesn't have a reasonable hope to make it to Sochi.

Eh?

 

[NMURA]

I believe a "lifeless" Nagasu would have scored higher than an "average" Flatt (like at US nationals) at worlds. Even the USFS must be feeling the resposibility of "choosing" Flatt for the failed mission, and they need a scapegoat. I don't think they reprimanded her if there were 3 spots (because you can't pick the obvious target).

 

[Jaana]

So the US federation has a real problem with 2 Ladies returning with 2 berths but no problem with 3 Men returning with 2 berths?

With the US men´s 2011 Worlds team there surely cannot have been ANY realistic expectations about them keeping the third berth by the US Federation, LOL? Anyway, Dornbush and Miner were great in their first senior Worlds.

 

[clairecloutier]

I don't think skaters look at it that way. I think they are there, not to represent their federations, but to compete for the World Championship.

That was clearly John Baldwin's perspective. I would argue that's not the case for the majority of skaters, who I do believe are proud to represent their federations and their countries. Let's not forget that the federations are the countries' representatives in the skating world; they don't exist just to serve individual skaters, but the overall success of their countries' skating programs. Which is not to say that the federations are perfect or never make mistakes. But they do serve an important and good purpose.

I don't think Michelle Kwan was overjoyed that the U.S. team won the ladies Olympic gold medal in 1998.

Perhaps you're not giving Michelle enough credit here. Remember, this is a woman who just moved to the country's capital with the intention of serving in our government. In fact, she already has served our government as a diplomatic envoy, albeit in a ceremonial role. Are you suggesting that Michelle would have preferred for another country to win the 1998 or 2002 ladies' OGMs simply because she couldn't be the winning American herself? I really don't believe she feels that way.

 

[emma]

I totally agree with Mathman's posts in this thread (all of them), but most recently #111 and skatefiguring's quote in it. As I mentioned earlier, the manner in which this was aired is what bothers me most, and here I think seriousbusiness is right to point to double standards in the application of this rule and perhaps the public discussions of it (via Hersch and then the USFS statement of reprimand and fine).

About whether Rachel should have retired already or will - I honestly can't say (and I doubt that any of the athletes actually would take my opinion seriously). But I did feel really badly for Rachel this season as she clearly had a plan to further up her jump tech, which was already very good and reliable, and took a deferral to university to do so. Sadly, she suffered the season with injuries. Despite that, she kept trying, including getting the new SP that brought so much joy to her face and to many, many viewers. I respect her so much for that determination. And because of it, I think if she wants to continue competing she will continue to push forward - whether she can do that well and do a full time load at university is hard for me to imagine, but then I'm not a life long athlete and scholar (so, maybe she can).

Whether she should have competed at worlds or not is again, something I really can't speak to. I think this and other threads suggest that the team talked about it and she decided to try. As I mentioned earlier, " I understand that athletes push through pain and injuries all the time, but at the same time, I really worry about that for them. I can only hope that her whole team (with supporters/family too) thought this through carefully and despite the reprimand, feel that their decision was sound at the time. If they do not feel that way, I hope they can learn from this and feel positive in the learning process. So, regardless of whether or not a rule was violated, and whether or not it was a mistake to compete or not, I do feel for Rachel because all of this press/discussion puts an unusual spot light on her that can be distracting if not painful, and and I wish her all the best.

 

[janetfan]

Perhaps you're not giving Michelle enough credit here. Remember, this is a woman who just moved to the country's capital with the intention of serving in our government. In fact, she already has served our government as a diplomatic envoy, albeit in a ceremonial role. Are you suggesting that Michelle would have preferred for another country to win the 1998 or 2002 ladies' OGMs simply because she couldn't be the winning American herself? I really don't believe she feels that way.

I agree and some of the arguments here are getting silly.

To sum it up some of us are being asked to believe Rachael was reprimanded and fined because:

The US Men did not get three places

Because US Skating is afraid of Hersh

Because US Skating is afraid of Frank Carroll

Because US Skating needs a scapegoat

Because US Skating has it in for Rachael and couldn't wait to humiliate her.


I think I get it now and see that the actions of Rachael and Tom Z had absoultely nothing to do with this.

 

[Mathman]

Even the USFS must be feeling the resposibility of "choosing" Flatt for the failed mission,...

I might be wrong, but I do not see any evidence that the USFSA thinks this way.

On the contrary, every decision the USFSA makes is consistent with the position that they see their job like this. You stage a competition, U.S. Nationals. Whoever wins goes to Worlds.

If they wanted to “choose” who to send, they would have chosen Abbott and Rippon. They would have sent Inoue and Baldwin to the Olympics instead of Evora and Ladwig. They could have sent Mirai based on her showing at Four Continents and other international events.

They didn’t. The USFSA doesn’t play that game.

 

[janetfan]

I might be wrong, but I do not see any evidence that the USFSA thinks this way.

On the contrary, every decision the USFSA makes is consistent with the position that they see their job like this. You stage a competition, U.S. Nationals. Whoever wins goes to Worlds.

If they wanted to “choose” who to send, they would have chosen Abbott and Rippon. They would have sent Inoue and Baldwin to the Olympics instead of Evora and Ladwig. They could have sent Mirai based on her showing at Four Continents and other international events.

They didn’t. The USFSA doesn’t play that game.

I agree with this

 

[demarinis5]

I love this board. We have so many differing opinions on any given situation. GS is definitely
not a "drink the koolaid" type of board, and I like that.

 

[seniorita]

Perhaps you're not giving Michelle enough credit here. Remember, this is a woman who just moved to the country's capital with the intention of serving in our government. In fact, she already has served our government as a diplomatic envoy, albeit in a ceremonial role. Are you suggesting that Michelle would have preferred for another country to win the 1998 or 2002 ladies' OGMs simply because she couldn't be the winning American herself? I really don't believe she feels that way.

yes but figure skating is a individual sport and unlike gymnastics they dont have a team event (so far!) so that one´s victory is everybody ´s victory. They fight to win alone. Besides maybe she would also be happy if in 2002 Irina got the gold medal who wa sher friend, instead of a second 16 year old from her team again!

 

[R.D.]

To sum it up some of us are being asked to believe Rachael was reprimanded and fined because:

The US Men did not get three places

Because US Skating is afraid of Hersh

Because US Skating is afraid of Frank Carroll

Because US Skating needs a scapegoat

Because US Skating has it in for Rachael and couldn't wait to humiliate her.


I think I get it now and see that the actions of Rachael and Tom Z had absoultely nothing to do with this.

I love it. Insanity at its best.

Contrary to popular opinion it seems, Flatt was not punished due to her dismal placement at Worlds (even if some want to believe that)...it was due to her not notifying the USFS of her (SERIOUS!) injury before Worlds. You don't see USFS publicizing disciplinary action often at all, so this had to be a most extraordinary case. Like I said before, I think Team Flatt put their own interests too far ahead of the interests of Team USA. (That's a longwinded way of saying they were selfish.)

 

[Tinymavy15]

I love it. Insanity at its best.

Contrary to popular opinion it seems, Flatt was not punished due to her dismal placement at Worlds (even if some want to believe that)...it was due to her not notifying the USFS of her (SERIOUS!) injury before Worlds. You don't see USFS publicizing disciplinary action often at all, so this had to be a most extraordinary case. Like I said before, I think Team Flatt put their own interests too far ahead of the interests of Team USA. (That's a longwinded way of saying they were selfish.)

True, but if Rachael had skated perfectly and placed top5 or so and told the press "I'm so happy I was able to skate so well considering I had a torn muscle etc." We (including USFSA) would be
lauding her as a heroine.