Caroline Zhang

[ImaginaryPogue]

How many of those podiums were senior international?

 

[mskater93]

Yes, but ultimately it's the athlete, on her own, out there on the ice, making things happen.

But the difference is in the method of preparation (all the way up to the point the skater takes their starting position). What I saw in Julie B with Alissa at competitions was inconsistency. She never worked with Alissa the exact same way each time - basically had a time table that three hours before you do X, two hours before you do Y, you put your skates on with CC minutes left before your warm up, etc. Julie B didn't look at how Alissa skated at competition X and say, "oh, we did 1 then 2 then 3 and it seemed to work. Let's try it again!" Any decent sports psychologist will tell you consistent preparation = consitent performance and Alissa seems to be a skater who needs that kind of consistency/process at a competition. This is one of the things that Jason and Yuka bring to the table with Alissa. They also seem to have a calming influence on her.

That being said, their method and processes will not work for all skaters. That is why there are different coaches who have been/are successful. Frank does NOT have Courtney in his stable (she skates with Mr. Nicks) but I believe Lauren Dinh skates with him.

As for Caroline, I don't think it's the number on the scale, I think it's the point in her development where she decided to try to make wholesale changes to her technique. Basically relearning to do most of your jumps after you have developed (bad) muscle memory is going to be nearly impossible to fix consistently and entirely. Mirai has had to make changes to her technique to float a little better and not reach for the ice on the landing with her landing toe pick to eliminate her UR problem, but this is a (very) small technique change. Alissa has adjusted the entry into her double Axel so it doesn't come around as hard and her rotating position on her triples so that her free side is not "leading" in the air but this is a relatively small (but effective) technique change in comparison. When you have to rework most of your jump technique AND fix your stroking technique, you are in big trouble a lot of the time. I don't think just losing weight will get Caroline back to where she was, as Polymerbob seems to think.

 

[brightphoton]

But the difference is in the method of preparation (all the way up to the point the skater takes their starting position). What I saw in Julie B with Alissa at competitions was inconsistency. She never worked with Alissa the exact same way each time - basically had a time table that three hours before you do X, two hours before you do Y, you put your skates on with CC minutes left before your warm up, etc. Julie B didn't look at how Alissa skated at competition X and say, "oh, we did 1 then 2 then 3 and it seemed to work. Let's try it again!" Any decent sports psychologist will tell you consistent preparation = consitent performance and Alissa seems to be a skater who needs that kind of consistency/process at a competition. This is one of the things that Jason and Yuka bring to the table with Alissa. They also seem to have a calming influence on her.

That being said, their method and processes will not work for all skaters. That is why there are different coaches who have been/are successful. Frank does NOT have Courtney in his stable (she skates with Mr. Nicks) but I believe Lauren Dinh skates with him.

As for Caroline, I don't think it's the number on the scale, I think it's the point in her development where she decided to try to make wholesale changes to her technique. Basically relearning to do most of your jumps after you have developed (bad) muscle memory is going to be nearly impossible to fix consistently and entirely. Mirai has had to make changes to her technique to float a little better and not reach for the ice on the landing with her landing toe pick to eliminate her UR problem, but this is a (very) small technique change. Alissa has adjusted the entry into her double Axel so it doesn't come around as hard and her rotating position on her triples so that her free side is not "leading" in the air but this is a relatively small (but effective) technique change in comparison. When you have to rework most of your jump technique AND fix your stroking technique, you are in big trouble a lot of the time. I don't think just losing weight will get Caroline back to where she was, as Polymerbob seems to think.

Calms and nerves were Alissa's go-to excuse for over a decade because she didn't want to say her jumps were bad. I highly doubt some sort of ordering of putting on skate and warming up significantly affected Alissa's skating. I'm also not on the Jason/Yuka bandwagon that is coming around town. How did Jeremy Abbott do in the last world championship, hmm?

Alissa isn't the stellar skater you're making her out to be. Her stroking may not be as labored as Caroline's, but she skims the top of the ice weakly, and her jump technique went from notoriously bad to almost passable. Even with the adjusted axel, Alissa still falls on it on occasion, and none of her other jumps are solid either. If the current standard of Alissa's skating is now held up to be "good enough," then Caroline can certainly meet that expectation.

 

[kwanatic]

Frank Carroll (who currently has Mirai & Courtney)...

Courtney who? If you mean Courtney Hicks, I'm pretty sure she's under the tutelage of the British octogenarian Mr. John Nicks...unless she's made some summer changes I haven't heard about yet.

In response to the rest of your post, I agree. Jason and Yuka have worked near miracles for Alissa this past season and everyone can see it. As a result, they are the hot ticket when it comes to coaching right now. Prior to that, it was Brian b/c of what he managed to do with Yu-Na.

I agree that there isn't a magic pill-like coach for every skater. It comes from the methods the coach uses and how well that meshes with the skater. Not every coach is going to work for every skater...likewise not every skater is going to work for every coach.

As do I.

I still believe that Caroline's problems can be solved. Where my opinion really differs from most skating fans is what her worst problems are. The consensus on the skating message boards is that her jumping technique and basic skating techniques are her biggest issues. While it is true she needs work in those areas, it is equally true that her horrendous technique and poor basics put her on 14 podiums.

Nobody likes to talk about it, but my belief is that Caroline's biggest issues now are physical, not technical. What has been holding her back the last 2 seasons is mostly the number that appears when she steps on a scale. Once she gets this under control, and I have seen improvement, other things will fall into place.

I somewhat agree with you Polymer. One reason I was so okay with her mule-kick skating a few years back was b/c despite that, she was landing 6 and 7 triple programs. After her growth spurt, she went from looking like this to this BUT it didn't affect her jumps too much. She was taller and longer, noticeably slower, but she still had decent results that year. It wasn't until the 2009-2010 season that things started becoming an issue. Physically, she hadn't changed much from the season before, but her wonky technique was beginning to fail her. She started slipping in the standings: 4th at TEB which was good, but then 8th at SC and 11th at nationals. She ended well with a bronze medal at 4CC so I honestly thought she'd be okay and that she'd just been having a rough year...

Last season was the most dramatic change. She was clearly bigger and heavier looking than the season before; face, arms, leg, bust...she was just bigger. Her flip got much better but everything else took a nosedive. Her stroking looked labored and slow, she looked labored and slow, I don't think she managed to execute a (f)lutz all season...

At Glacier Falls this summer, she looked a bit more in shape, but most importantly she was moving with more ease and better speed than the season before. Gradually, she's making improvements and I do think getting her body back to where it was around the 2009-2010 season will help her immensely when it comes to other things. So yes, her weight and physical condition are half of her problem...but I still think her basics and technique are the bigger half of the problem. Watching her diet and exercising always sounds easy but I think it'd be easier to do than striping down her technique and basics.

It may take another 2 or 3 or 4 years but if she works on it, she can and will improve her skating. Will she ever reach the level she needs to be at to compete with the best in the world? I have no idea. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't try if she wants to...

 

[Spun Silver]

One thing about Caroline continuing... if she does, I hope it's because she loves it and not because she's desperate to regain the stellar position she held as a 14-year-old, a goal that looks remote.

That's one thing that's very striking about Fumie to me - she says convincingly that she will skate as long as she can because she enjoys it. She looks like she enjoys it. I can't say the same about Caroline.

Also, the idea that Caroline should just remake her body is a bit draconian. Turning the clock back on her grownup female body without losing muscle or energy may not be impossible to do in a healthy way if she gets really good nutritional advice and is willing to live like a medieval nun, but don't athletes who do that successfully usually have a big support system? I'm not sure she does at this point, and it could be very dangerous and depressing to try to do it on her own.

I hope she has a good season... and I really hope she can "find her bliss" in skating this season, whether she competes well or not.

 

[PolymerBob]

Also, the idea that Caroline should just remake her body is a bit draconian. Turning the clock back on her grownup female body without losing muscle or energy may not be impossible to do in a healthy way if she gets really good nutritional advice and is willing to live like a medieval nun,

Your are probably right in that turning back the clock is not likely. But it is also not necessary nor desirable. Rather than a drastic weigth loss, a better goal would be a moderate weight loss combined with a moderate strength increase. This will make the rotations easier and make her skating look less labored.

How many of those podiums were senior international?

A total of 5.

 

[krenseby]

Her flip got much better but everything else took a nosedive. Her stroking looked labored and slow, she looked labored and slow, I don't think she managed to execute a (f)lutz all season...

I never got how despite the changes in her body that made all her jumps so much harder to rotate, the flip was an exception to that. It's like someone designed that flip to be so solid that it could be done by skaters with various body types.

 

[Sylvia]

It is certainly true that this SA assignment is critical for her [Caroline]. As for whether it's do-or-die on the international scene, that remains to be seen. USFSA just assigned Alexe Gilles to a senior B, and this is after a truly abysmal season last year, and similarly abysmal scores at summer comps this summer (I'm not sure that she landed a single clean triple).

I'm not aware that Alexe Gilles has been assigned to a Senior B? Her only summer competition so far that I know of was Skate Detroit in July where she landed several clean 3T and a 3Lo and scored 131.28 (46.10 SP, 85.18 FS), which I consider respectable for someone who is adjusting to new coaches (Sato and Dungjen), living away from home for the first time, and, like Caroline, is trying to rebuild her confidence on the ice.

... Frank Carroll (who currently has Mirai & Courtney), John Nicks (Ashley & Leah),

Leah Keiser is coached by Carroll and Christa Fassi; Courtney Hicks is with John Nicks (there's a photo of them at the JGP in in Brisbane, Australia on IceNetwork).

That being said, their method and processes will not work for all skaters. That is why there are different coaches who have been/are successful. Frank does NOT have Courtney in his stable (she skates with Mr. Nicks) but I believe Lauren Dinh skates with him.

Lauren Dinh is coached by Damon Allen in Colorado Springs.

ETA: And, yes, I agree that skaters and coaches have to "mesh" well on many different levels in order for a skater to achieve success at the Senior international level.

 

[Layfan]

But the difference is in the method of preparation (all the way up to the point the skater takes their starting position). What I saw in Julie B with Alissa at competitions was inconsistency. She never worked with Alissa the exact same way each time - basically had a time table that three hours before you do X, two hours before you do Y, you put your skates on with CC minutes left before your warm up, etc. Julie B didn't look at how Alissa skated at competition X and say, "oh, we did 1 then 2 then 3 and it seemed to work. Let's try it again!" Any decent sports psychologist will tell you consistent preparation = consitent performance and Alissa seems to be a skater who needs that kind of consistency/process at a competition. This is one of the things that Jason and Yuka bring to the table with Alissa. They also seem to have a calming influence on her.

That being said, their method and processes will not work for all skaters. That is why there are different coaches who have been/are successful. Frank does NOT have Courtney in his stable (she skates with Mr. Nicks) but I believe Lauren Dinh skates with him.

As for Caroline, I don't think it's the number on the scale, I think it's the point in her development where she decided to try to make wholesale changes to her technique. Basically relearning to do most of your jumps after you have developed (bad) muscle memory is going to be nearly impossible to fix consistently and entirely. Mirai has had to make changes to her technique to float a little better and not reach for the ice on the landing with her landing toe pick to eliminate her UR problem, but this is a (very) small technique change. Alissa has adjusted the entry into her double Axel so it doesn't come around as hard and her rotating position on her triples so that her free side is not "leading" in the air but this is a relatively small (but effective) technique change in comparison. When you have to rework most of your jump technique AND fix your stroking technique, you are in big trouble a lot of the time. I don't think just losing weight will get Caroline back to where she was, as Polymerbob seems to think.

Thanks for this explanation of what the different technique problems are for each skater. I love reading posts like this that really help me get it. What a fussy sport in terms of technique. I'm sure practices can be soooo frustrating and that all of these skaters, at least at this point in their careers, understand proper technique but it's not so easy to make your body do what is in your mind's eye.

I once heard Julie Berlin described as a good technical coach. I have no idea if that is true. It could be true and it could just be that Alissa is simply not the most amazing jumper. I agree with Brightphoton that Alissa's jumps are not the greatest even when she lands them - she is never going to be a triple triple jumper but what she needs is to at least land them so that her spins and other strengths can take her as far as possible for her. She's not going to be a legend but she can still be relatively successful. Kudos to her for at least having the right edge on her lutz, though. At least to the naked eye, I don't think Alissa's jumps have ever looked as obviously bad as Caroline's and even though Alissa is one of the slower skater out there there is a world of difference between the way she moves across the ice as Caroline does. I don't know. If Caroline's problems were a matter of jump technique that would be hard enough. But the fact that her basic skating is so weak... I just can never hold my breath for that girl.

 

[R.D.]

But the difference is in the method of preparation (all the way up to the point the skater takes their starting position). What I saw in Julie B with Alissa at competitions was inconsistency. She never worked with Alissa the exact same way each time - basically had a time table that three hours before you do X, two hours before you do Y, you put your skates on with CC minutes left before your warm up, etc. Julie B didn't look at how Alissa skated at competition X and say, "oh, we did 1 then 2 then 3 and it seemed to work. Let's try it again!" Any decent sports psychologist will tell you consistent preparation = consitent performance and Alissa seems to be a skater who needs that kind of consistency/process at a competition. This is one of the things that Jason and Yuka bring to the table with Alissa. They also seem to have a calming influence on her.

While I understand that method of preparation can make a big difference (and I can even relate), what I meant was that Team Sato/Dungjen cannot do the skating for her. They can try to HELP her become more consistent but they can't MAKE her consistent. I guess it stems from my own pessimism, not truly believing she can make a sudden 180 and break a pattern she's settled into for nearly a decade. I mean, even last season she had some difficulties (think TEB). Not impossible though, it's been done before and there are encouraging signs that point to her truly breaking this vicious cycle (but IMO, too soon to tell- we need at least TWO seasons to evaluate her and know for sure)

That being said, their method and processes will not work for all skaters. That is why there are different coaches who have been/are successful. Frank does NOT have Courtney in his stable (she skates with Mr. Nicks) but I believe Lauren Dinh skates with him.

Lauren who?

Anyway, I think therein lies a big issue I don't see very many people talk about.

When a coach seems to have unprecedented success with a particular skater, suddenly everyone seems to want to seek that coach, hoping for some sort of magic bullet or miracle improvement. But I wonder if they consider the possibility that maybe the coach's style and skater A's personality suit each other perfectly, and they may not have the same chemistry/same results that skater A had. We saw this with Robin Wagner, Brian Orser and now Team Sato/Dungjen. Again, the coach can build the bridge but it's still up to the skater to cross it.

And as for Zhang, I can't believe once again we've sunk here.

 

[feraina]

Caroline had grace in her skating when she was younger, and that was one of the special things about her skating that I really loved, but now it's hard to find it in her competitive skates. It's like she's using the wrong kind of muscles while stroking, and the effort to create more speed and power is making her movements seem effortful and labored looking. I think she could still project grace if she didn't have to worry about speed (as she does in exhibitions), but unfortunately her PCS will be killed, especially with her much greater body mass now to move around the ice, if she doesn't go faster.

So while losing weight and getting more fit will not fix Caroline's many problems, it will *help* her increase speed and regain grace. But yes, a big support team is what she needs at this point, outside of just skating lessons. And I don't know that she has that kind of support system around her... She just seems to have Peter & Karen, I'm not sure that she's working with any kind of fitness or dance instructors, nutritionist or wellness expert... For a long time, she coasted on her talent and even went coachless for a year and still did okay competitively. She also has a sweet tooth which she liberally indulged back when she was stick thin no matter what she ate. I remember when she went on her first year of JGP's, the US team leader was amazed at how many sweets she was having and complaining (good-humoredly) that he couldn't hold her back from it. If that's the sort of eating habits she developed while growing up, she needs serious nutrition and life coaching now to change her dietary habits. Also, she never did any strengthening or other off-ice training until only a couple of years ago. All of this is now catching up with her.

So besides deconstructing and rebuilding her skating skills and elements, she needs to have steel will, a deep pocket, and a lot of other things outside technical skating coaching, to get her back into the position of a contender.

 

[Sylvia]

Lauren who?

Lauren Dinh, age 15, is the 2011 U.S. Junior silver medalist who will make her JGP debut next week in Gdansk, Poland. Here's a new article about her: http://figureskatersonline.com/news/2011/09/07/lauren-dinh-aims-to-become-total-package/

Six of the 12 Junior ladies at 2011 Nationals have moved up to the Senior level in the U.S. this season: Courtney Hicks (J1, making her JGP debut in Brisbane, Australia this week), Dinh (J2), McKinzie Daniels (J4, will make her JGP debut in Brasov, Romania in 2 weeks), Mary Beth Marley (J5, has tested up but not competed in singles this summer and reportedly will focus on pairs with Rockne Brubaker this season), Haley Dunne (J8), Nina Jiang (J9), plus Leah Keiser and Angela Wang. Kiri Baga qualified for her first Senior Nationals this past season but withdrew due to injury and is in the process of coming back this season.

Back to Caroline...

But yes, a big support team is what she needs at this point, outside of just skating lessons. And I don't know that she has that kind of support system around her... She just seems to have Peter & Karen, I'm not sure that she's working with any kind of fitness or dance instructors, nutritionist or wellness expert...

I think Caroline knows what she needs to do -- she's attended many Champs Camps over the years where there have been educational sessions about nutrition, strength/conditioning/fitness, etc., -- and it's up to her to work productively on a daily basis with Peter Oppegard & Karen Kwan-Oppegard. IMHO, it will come down to how much she wants to improve her overall skating and what she does herself to make it happen.

 

[krenseby]

and it's up to her to work productively on a daily basis with Peter Oppegard & Karen Kwan-Oppegard. IMHO, it will come down to how much she wants to improve her overall skating and what she does herself to make it happen.

Thing is, we also don' t know what kind of coaches Oppegard and Karen Kwan are. I haven' t been able to judge his or their effectiveness based on his or their work with Yuna.

On a separate note, I am really hoping that Courtney Hicks will have a great JGP debut. Everyone's been so excited about her and I am hoping that her performances will bring us much pleasure and joy. Do you think she has a chance of making the JGP final?

 

[R.D.]

^^ Thanks for the info

 

[Olympia]

Thing is, we also don' t know what kind of coaches Oppegard and Karen Kwan are. I haven' t been able to judge his or their effectiveness based on his or their work with Yuna.

On a separate note, I am really hoping that Courtney Hicks will have a great JGP debut. Everyone's been so excited about her and I am hoping that her performances will bring us much pleasure and joy. Do you think she has a chance of making the JGP final?

The one thing about Oppegard's previous coaching career that I remember is that he worked with a wonderful young junior (or even younger) pair, Tiffany and Johnnie Stiegler. Tiffany seemed like a real find: charisma to burn as well as good moves. Her brother was injured and stopped skating, and she never regained the early momentum (and eventually tried her hand at ice dancing but didn't progress very far). But at the time, this pair looked wonderful, and Oppegard was their teacher. I hope this bodes well for both Caroline and YuNa.

 

[Reginald]

Wow! Looks like my little forum has grown.

by Sylvia
Six of the 12 Junior ladies at 2011 Nationals have moved up to the Senior level in the U.S. this season: Courtney Hicks (J1, making her JGP debut in Brisbane, Australia this week), Dinh (J2), McKinzie Daniels (J4, will make her JGP debut in Brasov, Romania in 2 weeks), Mary Beth Marley (J5, has tested up but not competed in singles this summer and reportedly will focus on pairs with Rockne Brubaker this season), Haley Dunne (J8), Nina Jiang (J9), plus Leah Keiser and Angela Wang. Kiri Baga qualified for her first Senior Nationals this past season but withdrew due to injury and is in the process of coming back this season.

The next generation of US singles ladies (born from 1995-1998) is very promising.
Especially Leah Keiser. She sort of reminds me of Caroline Zhang with better technique.

 

[Sylvia]

Caroline Zhang now has a Senior B assignment after Skate America -- Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria. I've posted the Entries link at: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...stria-(November-1-6-2011)&p=582822#post582822

 

[demarinis5]

Thanks for the heads up Sylvia. I appreciate all of the info. that you
provide to GS. I see that Steve Carriere will be there too.

 

[Pikachuusb]

Yes Sylvia Thank you for the heads up. I wish her the best of luck

 

[PolymerBob]

A senior B would probably be better experience than Sectionals. I am very interested to see what improvments she has made.