What do audiences want to know about the IJS? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What do audiences want to know about the IJS?

My proposal is C (the whole program) = T (Presentation) + R (jumps) + L (non-jumps). The concept of a “global quality” (e.g., skating skills) pertains to a different equation and should be kept aside.

Presentation is a "global quality", by your reckoning. There are a lot of things that are covered under skating skills that are not counted twice. For example, and there are probably more I'm forgetting:
- Overall speed
- Efficiency in gathering speed: how many crossovers/progressives/stroking-type movements are used in between elements or more complex transitions
- Efficiency in maintaining speed: does the skater keep a running edge through non-footwork steps/transitions? use his/her edges to build or maintain momentum? or is s/he digging in with every turn and step, or even muscling through them[1]? The step sequences, especially at high levels, tend to be constructed in a way that breaks up the run of edge with movements where the skater is pushing hard to get momentum going again. Part of it is definitely the enormous amount of requirements, part of it is that a lot of these skaters would have a hard time showing that type of skating even with a sequence of steps where it was possible.
- Skating on one foot, especially if the skater doesn't use that level feature[2] for their footwork.
- Skating and turning in both directions
- Ability to hold a single edge well for an extended period

Most of those qualities can't be evaluated in the performance of elements at all. Especially men's singles, because of the tendency to get very convoluted in the leveled footwork and the lack of a spiral. "Skating Skills" is not very redundant at all. "Transitions" is the PCS category that could theoretically see a skater rewarded multiple times for the same thing: the TR mark, the Choreography mark, possibly Interpretation, and maybe jump +GOE in certain cases where it doesn't actually deserve a bullet point for difficult entry. I think that mostly comes down to the fact that Interpretation and especially Choreography just aren't that well thought out as components. Choreography, especially, is like the black budget of PCS.

[1] If you've ever seen pre-adolescent ladies singles skaters do twizzles, it should be obvious what I mean. I hate twizzles so freaking much. Twizzles can go die, for all I care. The overabundance of twizzles is the one thing I really unabashedly hate about the IJS. Even the Plague Of Poorly Executed Biellmann Everything was better than The Rise of the Twizzles. Twizzles are like truffles: best in moderation.
[2] I used to love one-foot footwork sequences, but I really wish skaters who weren't good at it would stop, and also that there were more features for levels.
 
I think Scott was interested early on. In 06 he was shooed away from the judges area during a junior event because they didn't want him to see the judges computers...

Well he shouldn't have been in the judges' area while the event was going on. Only officials should be there. That said, he could have arranged for instruction through the ISU. Tracey Wilson and Debbi Wilkes took the technical callers' training and are certified technical callers, which only enhanced their ability to note elements which would receive deductions and to instruct viewers on the NJS. As a former skater, the ISU would have welcomed his interest in learning about the system, but not while an event was in progress.
 
I think what is particularly unhelpful is when a commentator utterly trashes the skater who won, such as Dick Button and Plushenko. I'm not a Plushenko fan either but not once ever did Dick ever mention how strong Plushenko's basic skating was, how he powered around the rink with absolutely no effort all and his jumps were huge and covered enormous distance and that's why he won. To hear Button rant about flailing arms and nit picking every little thing without saying anything positive about the guy at all, made it sound like Plushenko was winning on reputation when nothing could have been further from the truth.

I have always found Dick particularly unhelpful. He would frequently say Sasha had the best spirals in the world based on her extension, ignoring the fact she skated them in straight lines and not on edges (something she improved later), and criticized skaters like Irina who didn't have great extension but performed her spirals on deep edges. Or how he would say Irina was bad about telegraphing jumps when she was one of the few to do turns into her 3L and actual footwork into the 3F. I didn't like how he picked on certain skaters while giving others a free pass. He may be to blame for the fact that US viewers are turned off by the increased importance of the technical aspects of skating.
 
Yes, Uncle Dick is to be blamed for the overuse of the words "Sasha" and "exquisite" ! :-)
 
Long before IJS, I had the impression that Dick Button consistently encouraged viewers to appreciate the aesthetic aspects of figure skating (pointing out details that did or didn't live up to his personal standards) and to dismiss and distrust the picky details of technique that judges were focused on. Often he would make fun of the complexity of the rulebook -- of course, never telling TV viewers how they might find a copy themselves.

Sometimes he would explain technical details. But if he liked a skater in general, he would often follow up a technical nitpick with "But who cares, who cares?"

Of course, the judges care, but Button was telling the viewers not to.

I don't know how much of that tendency was that Button's own interests as an observer and producer of skating events was in skating as art rather than skating as technical contest, and how much was because TV producers encouraged him to focus on things that were easier for nonskaters to see for themselves and have their own opinions about.

Still, he did a lot to educate viewers about his personal aesthetic preferences (e.g., free leg positions in laybacks) than most would see for themselves, and little to educate them about edges, although he would often gush in general about superb edges from the likes of Dorothy Hamill.

Peggy Fleming was much the same.
 
Again, last weekend watching Kawaguti & Smirnov, he could easily see that they were the class of the field, without anyone telling him.

When the other pairs fell twice & three times, of course it's easy for him to tell who's the 'class of the field' when K&S were relatively clean.
Show him Patrick Chan's winning performance with 4-time falls and we can talk.
 
gkelly said:
For TV audiences, what we want is for TV commentators to look at the detailed protocols and summarize the detailed numbers into three or four categories for two or three of the top skaters in the event? That sounds doable. The networks often do something along these lines in controversial decisions, if there is time left in the broadcast or if there is another broadcast the next day.

Should they be encouraged to schedule their live broadcasts to allow the commentators a few minutes to analyze during commercials and then sum up with this kind of analysis. While the event is in progress there usually won't be time for commentators to figure out exactly why each skater ranked where s/he did in relation to all of the relevant previous skaters.

Maybe they could do it as part of the post-game interview with the winner.

The casual viewer dos not care very much about how the lower placementds came out. At least in the case where there was a close fight for the championship between two top contenders, maybe they could say something like, "Now, Hector, here are how the marks came out that gave you the victory." Then the skater could say something like, "Yeah, when I doubled the triple Lutz I knew I lost 5 points so I was determned tp put extra energy into my footwork sequence, and I see right here that it paid off."
 
B/S did not get all 9s from any judge. They got a mix of 8/9 from judges 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8; 8's from judge 4 and 9; a mix of 7s and 8s from judge 7 and all 7s from judge 3
S/S got all 9's from judge 2; 8's from judges 1, 4, 5, 9; a mix of 7/8 from judges 7 and 8, 7s from judge 6 and a mix of 6s and 7s from judge 3.

So obviously judge 3 was a real critic and marked both down, though liked B/S better
judge 2 like S/S better giving them the edge on everything except performance.
Judge 7 liked them about equally: They got the same score in skating skills, footwork and performance, though B/S got a slight edge in choreo and interpretation.

While it makes sense here magically, international competitions have the scores shifted for each judge. Judge 1 on skater 1 is not necessarily judge 1 on skater 2....Usually most national and local-level competitions, this is not done.
 
One of my favourite examples of commentary....

Rahkamo/Kokko FD at 1995 Worlds...
Eurosport
Sandra Bezic

If you watch the Eurosport one, you're inclined to believe the result is unfair. Sandra Bezic instantly dismisses that idea. Even though no actual reasoning is given, I suspect that the audience Bezic is talking to feels more sanguine about the result.
 
While it makes sense here magically, international competitions have the scores shifted for each judge. Judge 1 on skater 1 is not necessarily judge 1 on skater 2....Usually most national and local-level competitions, this is not done.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the random score generation thing. :/ So much for that analysis.
Still, it still does support my point that the views of the judges aren't so clean cut as one would think.
 
First of all, I don't think it's right to throw everybody from a certain ethnicity or nationality into some negative stereotype. Some Americans probably like the points system and some don't. I imagine Alyssa and Jeremy are quite happy with it, as they won with imperfect skates, which they would not have (probably) under the 6.0 system. Also, the only time I remember anyone saying there was a conspiracy when the Russians won was when there was a conspiracy. Back in the golden era of the late 90's, the Russians dominated and were clearly better than just about everyone else in pairs, men's and dance. The commentators may have wished that Todd Eldredge or Michael Weiss were as good as Alexei Yagudin or Evgeny Plushenko, but I don't remember anyone suggesting that a fix was in. Dick loved Irina Slutskaya and her pink cheeks, though probably not as much as he loved Michelle.

Here's the problem: what's valued under this system is not visible to the television viewer. I can see when someone falls. I can't see if someone is a little underrotated, or if they have a deep edge or not. Two legged footwork looks almost as nice as one legged footwork. And even if I can see the ur's or edge calls--sometimes you can, depending ont the camera angle--it doesn't affect the overall look of the program. Mirai looks fine even with her under rotations. Someone who falls many times but wins on edging does not. Under 6.0--after the school figures were gone--you could usually tell who the winner was after the long program. Now it's not as easy. Is this affecting viewership in the US? I think it probably is to an extent. We won't know because the people who stopped watching the sport aren't on any message boards.

A sport that appeals only to those who have to "get educated" because it's so complex is not a sport with much populist appeal, which means it won't get a lot of airtime or press. I know it's more popular in other countries, that's wonderful. It will live on. But in a few years it will probably only be seen to subscribers of ice network in the biggest market in the world.
 
Presentation is a "global quality", by your reckoning. There are a lot of things that are covered under skating skills that are not counted twice. For example, and there are probably more I'm forgetting:
- Overall speed
......


To avoid making a big thesis so as to bore people to death, I will just respond to the top few lines of your post.

When I said “the concept of a ‘global quality’ pertains to a different equation and should be kept aside”, I referred only to the global qualities that are inseparable from the act of skating. One can skate without emotions, choreography, or interpretation. Therefore Presentation (“the toppings of the cake” in my analogy) can be treated as an independent category in spite of its global effect. One, however, cannot skate without any kind of speed (Note: Standing is not skating in my definition). And therefore speed is a “global quality” (or a layer of the cake).

Overall speed as a measuring factor is overlapping with other test items since speed has been evaluated in jumps (a positive bullet for good speed into and out of a jump), spins (+ for fast spins), footwork (e.g., slow footwork receives –GOE), and so on. As long as there is an overlap, the sum of all scores will favor certain skills and therefore discriminate others.

By my cake slicing analogy mentioned in my previous post, each half of the cake has similar layers (vanilla, chocolate, and almond). Speed, for instance, is one of the layers and used across-the-board in my proposal as one of the criterion (or bullets) to assess the quality of each element. By element, I mean the standard elements (i.e., jumps, spins, footwork sections, and my proposed field moves sections) plus transition (defined as anything in between standard elements). There will be a GOE for transition and of course speed will be one of the considerations. So the “overall speed” has been accounted for once by slicing it into sections (speed in jumps, in transition, etc.). It will be redundant to have a “skating skills” category to count it again.

I apologize in advance if I have bored anyone.
 
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I'm not sure the audience would need more than decent commentary and some simple breakdown of the scores after each skater, and in comparison to the group.
For the US audience that is numerically challenged- bring in the english speaking Eurosport commentators. They do a much better job than the commentators on American TV (who are blantently anti IJS).
Somehow creativity needs to be rewarded more so the skates are visually appealing.
Also- who even watches TV anymore? Perhaps a strategy aimed at other communication/media/social means would be more effective.
 
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I think the main thing is on jumps and that landing doesn't mean everything. It is based on number of rotations and difficulty of the jump. What's is so hard about saying something like that was a really hard jump there was a flaw but they still get a lot of points for rotations. The commentators should be knowledgable about who is most likely to flutz or have and edge wrong or underrotate and use that when they commentate. The second mark is not "artistry" it can have vague definitions but is way more specific in nature than "artistry." It has been very wrong of Bezic to call it artistry and criticize PLushenko and Slutskaya has having none and making their placements seem ridiculous and political. People totally quote her verbatim in comments sections in articles about Olympics. These tend to be every 4 year Olympic FS viewers.

Define step sequence and spins and levels! It takes so little time. Don't have Andrea joyce define URing once! Have it be more regular and from the commentators.
 
First of all, I don't think it's right to throw everybody from a certain ethnicity or nationality into some negative stereotype.

Agreed!

Also, the only time I remember anyone saying there was a conspiracy when the Russians won was when there was a conspiracy. Back in the golden era of the late 90's, the Russians dominated and were clearly better than just about everyone else in pairs, men's and dance. The commentators may have wished that Todd Eldredge or Michael Weiss were as good as Alexei Yagudin or Evgeny Plushenko, but I don't remember anyone suggesting that a fix was in. Dick loved Irina Slutskaya and her pink cheeks, though probably not as much as he loved Michelle.

Oh, I remember plenty of examples, some overt and some by insinuation (e.g., choosing to focus commentary on the Russian skaters' weaknesses and the the American skaters' strengths, but not vice versa).

And I have no doubt that Russian commentators did the reverse.

Or East Germans, if you go back to the 1970s and 80s. The trope was already familiar by the 1990s, so if American commentators simply expressed honest doubt about a result that didn't favor the American skaters, audiences and non-skating media were often quick to jump to conclusions of fixes that the commentators may not have even meant to imply.

Here's the problem: what's valued under this system is not visible to the television viewer. I can see when someone falls. I can't see if someone is a little underrotated, or if they have a deep edge or not. Two legged footwork looks almost as nice as one legged footwork. And even if I can see the ur's or edge calls--sometimes you can, depending ont the camera angle--it doesn't affect the overall look of the program.

So there are two general approaches to commentary.

1) Focus primarily on the overall look of the program. Praise skaters who are appealing in their body line, musicality, emotion, energy, charisma, ability to consistently avoid major mistakes, etc., and express disappointment over performances that are less successful artistically. Encourage viewers to evaluate the performances on the basis of artistry and entertainment value and make little reference to sporting accomplishment except to note the difficulty and success (or lack thereof) of the jumps.

2) Focus primarily on the technical details of the program. Point out several areas that each top skater does well and also areas where they may lose points. Encourage viewers to appreciate the qualities that are most valued by skating purists and by the rules, and to develop an eye to see finer details for themselves.

I think the best commentary would be a balance of both approaches. Of course, too much talking during the program takes away from hearing the music and enjoying the program. I'd also be happy if the commentators would say as little as possible during the program and took notes to point out important details with instant replay while waiting for the scores.

A sport that appeals only to those who have to "get educated" because it's so complex is not a sport with much populist appeal, which means it won't get a lot of airtime or press. I know it's more popular in other countries, that's wonderful. It will live on. But in a few years it will probably only be seen to subscribers of ice network in the biggest market in the world.

I don't think the sport should compromise its own values just to appeal to American mass audiences. Skating will never be as mainstream in the US as baseball or basketball, because most viewers don't have the opportunity to try figure skating themselves. (Either there's no ice nearby, or it's too time consuming and expensive to put in the training necessary to progress from basic skating to actual figure skating.)

So it may be that the sports-oriented coverage will all be online or on sports cable networks, and there will be only a few broadcasts a year of Nationals and Worlds (and Olympics) on mainstream networks geared toward casual audiences. That's about how things were before the skating boom of the 1990s, only now there's online coverage to satisfy the serious fans.

However, it would be possible for broadcasts to make beginning skating lessons and beyond sound appealing to viewers, and it would be possible for broadcasts to help viewers learn to see for themselves more of what the judges are looking for.


By my cake slicing analogy mentioned in my previous post, each half of the cake has similar layers (vanilla, chocolate, and almond). Speed, for instance, is one of the layers and used across-the-board in my proposal as one of the criterion (or bullets) to assess the quality of each element. By element, I mean the standard elements (i.e., jumps, spins, footwork sections, and my proposed field moves sections) plus transition (defined as anything in between standard elements). There will be a GOE for transition and of course speed will be one of the considerations. So the “overall speed” has been accounted for once by slicing it into sections (speed in jumps, in transition, etc.). It will be redundant to have a “skating skills” category to count it again.

I'm still not sure whether you're proposing a major change to the scoring system or just a cosmetic change in the way the existing scores are reported to audiences.

I'd love to brainstorm how it might work if you want to get specific.
 
I'm still not sure whether you're proposing a major change to the scoring system or just a cosmetic change in the way the existing scores are reported to audiences.

A major change. My proposal is:

1. A program is divided into Jumps and Non-jump elements (spins, field moves, footwork, transition). Everything in between standard elements (jumps, spins, field moves, footwork) or whatever is left is considered Transition.
2. Execution and Skating Skills are assessed through GOE for each element (including Transition) and/or incorporated into levels whenever pertinent and therefore will no longer be independent categories.

Three scores (jumps, non-jump elements, presentation) are reported to TV audience. Detailed breakdown of the scores is available online for interested viewers and skaters.
 
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A major change. My proposal is:

1. A program is divided into Jumps and Non-jump elements (spins, field moves, footwork, transition). Everything in between standard elements (jumps, spins, field moves, footwork) or whatever is left is considered Transition.
2. Execution and Skating Skills are assessed through GOE for each element (including Transition) and therefore will no longer be independent categories.

OK, so in that case, are you OK with the "Transition" score being worth a LOT more than it's worth now? Not ~10% of the total score, but more like 25-30%? Because, as I understand your proposal, that's the only place where judges would be allowed to reflect the difference between good crossovers and weak crossovers, overall speed and ability to generate speed effortlessly, edge depth and security (apart from the elements -- and spins don't really use edges so those elements wouldn't contribute), ability to skate on both clockwise and counterclockwise curves and rarely in straight lines or on two feet, ability to use turns other than threes and inside mohawks, etc., which are currently covered under Skating Skills.

Maybe it should be called "In-Between Skating" instead of Transitions.

E.g., if Surya Bonaly and Yuka Sato land the same jumps and Surya does harder spins and more split jumps and other non-element obvious highlight transitions and connects to the audience more, are you OK with Yuka taking a lead on the strength of quality and difficulty of edge-based Transitions? I.e., on the strength of better skating throughout the program.

And I don't see the reason to lump spins and any other elements that earn points (of which there are many in pair skating even if you get rid of points for step sequences and spirals) in the same group with non-element skating instead of in the same group with the jump elements. That's where you really seem to be slicing your own cake in two different directions.

The only reason I can see for dividing it that way is that you think jumps are so important they should have their own category and skating is so unimportant that it doesn't deserve even one score of its own within a category.

By my cake slicing analogy mentioned in my previous post, each half of the cake has similar layers (vanilla, chocolate, and almond). Speed, for instance, is one of the layers and used across-the-board in my proposal as one of the criterion (or bullets) to assess the quality of each element. By element, I mean the standard elements (i.e., jumps, spins, footwork sections, and my proposed field moves sections)

Yes, I understand that. Although speed in spinning is a very different kind of speed from speed across the ice.

plus transition (defined as anything in between standard elements). There will be a GOE for transition

This is what I don't understand. All elements have base marks and grades of execution. Crossovers and isolated three turns and mohawks and whatever other steps or turns the skater uses to get from one end of the rink between the elements to the other do not have base marks or grades of executions. So how do you propose they be scored? Not just their speed, but everything else about them currently listed under Skating Skills? Not to mention everything currently scored under Transitions.
 
That reminds me of something Peter Carruthers said about the "technical" "transitions" and the "component" scores. Which gave the impression of a three tiered scoring system that seemed like they may have been worth 33% each or something. The ISU could just tinker with the mutiples of the PCS. Like transitions could stay at a multiple of 2 and the others go down. I don't get why Ice Dance is so different in which the PCS categories have different multipliers.
 
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