Does the IJS incentivize boring programs?

[Anna K.]

My two cents
What the rules are meant to incentivize and what the actual judging incentivizes are actually two different things.
In theory, PCS should incentivize creativity. However, if judges give 9.9 or 10.0 PCS to whatever the top skaters do, they incentivize... nothing. If these top skaters have boring programs, their programs will certainly remain boring. Why should they change anything or be creative?

 

[Zora]

Most music can be skated to.

But not every music allows great interpretation. If you skate to a pop song, let's say like Alysa Liu's short program last season (sorry to pick her out), there's nothing interesting you can do but the usual stuff and stay on the beat. Honestly, you can't skate badly to that song. Give a top skater a song like that and just little time and they would come up with a convincing choreography. But give them something more complex or energetic and it becomes a difficult task. I'm more interested in choreography where I wonder how they came up with that idea.

2)music is worse now than during 6.0 era. Should I try to find the programs from the 80-90s that patchwork 15 pieces into SPs ?

2010 era was peak artistry for me. I just recently watched the men's free skate at the 2010 Olympics and it's hard to find a bad program. (Lots of weak jumps though, I guess that's the flip side. )

3)And finally, it's not IJS who is responsible for bad music choices when they do happen.... It's sometimes, the skaters, sometimes, the coaches or choreographers.

I agree, their music choices. My choice to no longer watch competitions...

In theory, PCS should incentivize creativity.

But how could they do this? There's no reward for interesting program ideas. You can skate to as many ballads as you like with all the spread eagles and ina bauers and knee slides, there's no deduction for that and how could there be one when they do everything right.

 

[Anna K.]

But how could they do this? There's no reward for interesting program ideas. You can skate to as many ballads as you like with all the spread eagles and ina bauers and knee slides, there's no deduction for that and how could there be one when they do everything right.

Well, there is Composition, which is one of the components, and it is defined as "the intentional, developed and / or original arrangement of the repertoire of all types of movements into a meaningful whole according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern and musical structure" so in theory the originality counts.
Then, judges are supposed to evaluate in scale from 1 to 10 to which extent the criteria for Composition are fulfilled in a skater's program . In theory, an average generic program should be somewhere about average, which is in 5s or 6s and not higher.

 

[TontoK]

Speaking of originality, how SHOULD the components be judged for a skater like Sonja Hilmer?

Her short program this year, especially, is amazing. The tap dancing? She turning knee-slide into 2A?

I'm interested in how our knowledgeable posting community would score her PCS? And for the purpose of the experiment, let's ignore the plain fact that we really can't, most of us not having seen her in person.

 

[Anna K.]

If anyone wants to accept the challenge , here is Sonja's short program from Kinoshita Group Cup:

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Here are the ISU rules and now I'm off to read those myself. We are all indeed knowledgeable but I suspect that @gkelly is the only one who knows the PCS requirements by heart

 

[4everchan]

Sonja : lovely composition.

I wouldn't call it extremely original however. For today's standards, maybe. It's different but programs like these were somewhat popular a couple decades ago. (jazzy, tap dancer programs). So in that sense, it's not groundbreaking... but what is ?

I wouldn't give her "excellent/outstanding" marks for a couple reasons.

Sometimes, I could see nice movements but not necessarily in synch with the music. If you want to watch someone mastering take five, go watch Chan. You see he is "dancing" in 5/4. He also does it with speed. Tapping is fun but it has the disadvantage of being static. Sonja was good with the pulse but the timing wasn't perfect.

Finally, for me, the skating skills (and I am not an expert) are very good but not outstanding either. She could use more speed and flow. More power.

Is this a fun program to watch ? Yes, for sure. One of the most entertaining ones I have seen this year. Should it bring 9s + in PCS ? I am not so sure I'd go there. I'd give her "very good" in all 3 categories.

 

[Isk]

I've given it a thought, and it's a little bit difficult for me to evaluate composition separately from implementation. I agree that the program is lovely, but she could use more speed, extension, ease of skating. Here is a program with tap dancing from a pro competition:

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and here is some creative footwork including tap-dancing:

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Patrick's Take Five is different, he doesn't tap, he skates it:

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All these gentlemen are outstanding skaters, their range of capabilities is very wide, they can easily do classics:

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I'd much rather see Sonja's creative choreo than another unrequited love. Under 6.0 the whole of Sonja's program would be evaluated, and some aspects of her skating would hurt the artistic impression, so overall I think she was judged reasonably. But considering that raspberries, poor skating, boring and tasteless programs, sloppy hands and bad posture are awarded 8s and 9s, there is no clear benchmark. We've seen some 10s, although in theory we shouldn't have seen any, because there is no limit to perfection, and we haven't seen any 0s.

 

[Mathman]

But seriously, I do not agree at all that
1) there are some nice pieces that are not skating music. Most music can be skated to.

Some music (such as ballet) is composed with the express intent of accompanying and complementing -- even cuing -- graceful movement. Most are not. Yes, a performer can skate to anything, or for the matter, to nothing. To me, that does not mean that any music, or none, is skating music.

 

[4everchan]

Some music (such as ballet) is composed with the express intent of accompanying and complementing -- even cuing -- graceful movement. Most are not. Yes, a performer can skate to anything, or for the matter, to nothing. To me, that does not mean that any music, or none, is skating music.

I will give you an example. Once, I posted that I'd love this to be skated to. The feedback was, this is impossible to skate to.
I beg to differ

 

[Isk]

Some music (such as ballet) is composed with the express intent of accompanying and complementing -- even cuing -- graceful movement. Most are not. Yes, a performer can skate to anything, or for the matter, to nothing. To me, that does not mean that any music, or none, is skating music.

This is a very interesting topic. Quite often when I think: this is a nice music piece, probably bad for skating, turns out that someone has already skated to it. Balanchine ballets are choreographed to all sorts of music not written for ballet, many of them are pretty good.

 

[Isk]

I will give you an example. Once, I posted that I'd love this to be skated to. The feedback was, this is impossible to skate to.
I beg to differ

Scherzo Yes, please, somebody skate to it. And the piano concerto.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

PCS scores for the top skaters were a quite a bit lower in the first few years of IJS, in the 2006 OLympcics nobody was getting even 8.5, even 8s were very, very rare. Even Lambiel didn't score over 8 in any of the five PCS components in either of his programs in Torino or when he won the world title in 2005. Sasha Cohen's highly praised short program got 31.40 in PCS with individual component scores between 7.54 and 8.07, today it would get easy 9 in most components if not all. The ICE Dance PCSs are even more striking from a modern POV, almost nobody got individual scores over 8.0 while today the judge are giving 9s to the top teams as a matter of course and the champions are getting almost perfect scores (Papadakis and Ciseron got 59.40 out of 60 possible PCS at the 2022 Olympics Free Danse and even the silver medalists' skate got 58.23 which is an average individual score of 9.7).

But there is obviously a limit how much these scores can be increased since there is a maximum of 10 and we've pretty much reached it in Ice Dance and to a lesser extent in men's.

The same went for GOE as well - you wouldn't even know that the GOE scale went to +3 at the time because judges were suuuper sparing even with +2's.

It's so funny (and sad) to go back and see performances where female singles skaters CHEER at clearing 60 PCS in their FS, or male singles skaters clear 70 PCS in their FS.

Arakawa won the Olympics with a FS of 63.00 - and she got a FS score of 123, which was "miles" ahead of Cohen (116) and Slutskaya (114). Also, only her, Cohen and Slutskaya cleared 30 PCS in the SP. https://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2006/SEG004.HTM I get that scoring has changed and whatnot but that Olympics-winning score of 191 that Arakawa got would have put her 11th at Worlds last year.

Today is WILD. I'm not saying the judges need to be stingy, but they're on the other side of the generosity spectrum. And yes, it does incentivize boring programs when a skater has paid their dues and can put anything out on the ice and not get marked down below a prior threshold.

 

[gkelly]

What constitutes "boring programs"?

I can think of several possibilities:
*Not much going on besides the elements
*Predictable temporal layout and travel pathways
*Skater lacks emotional engagement and connection to the music and spectators
*Repetitive, undynamic music
*Same elements and variations that everyone else is doing this year and in recent years

Others?

In terms of programs being too similar to each other in any given year... yes, that does make things boring for fans who watch a lot of programs and want to see more variety.

But if the exact same program had been performed years earlier when the rules didn't incentivize certain elements or variations (e.g., +1Eu+3S and similar combinations; +2A sequences; edge changes and blade features (spinning on toe or heel) in spins; etc., those same details that seem overused and ho-hum now would have seemed fresh and exciting back when they were not rewarded. There are probably features that were rewarded in earlier IJS rules that no longer are, so they may have felt boring 20 years ago but would feel fresh now (e.g., change-edge spirals).

Do you ever go back and look at unremarkable programs from the 6.0 era that may have felt boring at the time, amidst other programs with similar content, but seem refreshing now because they're different from what we're used to seeing recently?

 

[Anna K.]

I asked Google what causes boredom according to science. Here is the AI overview:
"Boredom in the brain is often a symptom of insufficient mental stimulation, meaning there's a mismatch between the desired and actual cognitive engagement with a task or situation. The prefrontal cortex doesn't have a worthwhile "problem" to solve, leading to a subjective feeling of dissatisfaction or lack of motivation. This can stem from factors like repetitive, monotonous tasks, a lack of novel experiences, or a lack of control over one's environment, prompting the brain's dopamine network to seek more stimulating, rewarding activities."

 

[moonvine]

I kind of like the direction that Ice Dance has gone lately with more choreographic elements. Assisted jumps, spins, slides, and so forth.

I think they add more creativity, although I also agree with critics that say the GOE component on these can be excessive.

The old 6.0 requirement for moves in the field has been semi-replaced with the choreographic sequence, and I'm not against that, I just hate to see it crammed into one little piece of the program. Maybe we could have some unleveled choreographic elements in singles.

I'd much rather see Angela Nikodinov's basic layback than a L4 Layback done by anyone today. And, as you know, I will never stop advocating for the return of big open single axel jumps for men, and a choreographic jump element of 2 rotation or less would open the door for that.

I LOVE a beautiful classic layback as well. And a spiral held for more than 2 seconds.

But I also love hydroblades. More specifically Keegan’s hydroblade.

 

[moonvine]

Speaking of originality, how SHOULD the components be judged for a skater like Sonja Hilmer?

Her short program this year, especially, is amazing. The tap dancing? She turning knee-slide into 2A?

I'm interested in how our knowledgeable posting community would score her PCS? And for the purpose of the experiment, let's ignore the plain fact that we really can't, most of us not having seen her in person.

She is 3rd after the short at Texas Trophy. Honestly when they announced her scores my jaw dropped.

I put a link to her short in Texas Trophy thread.

 

[Anna K.]

Do you ever go back and look at unremarkable programs from the 6.0 era that may have felt boring at the time, amidst other programs with similar content, but seem refreshing now because they're different from what we're used to seeing recently?

I don't because I don't know how to find them. I did not follow FS during 6.0 era. If I look at a historic scoreboard, the names say nothing to me. I don't know if a skater ended up in the middle/on the bottom because the program was unremarkable or because he/she fell or something. I searched some names on YouTube but there were videos.

However, I think that it would be interesting to see something that was regarded as "unremarkable" back then - just for comparison. Do you have any links to videos that you could bring up as examples?

 

[gkelly]

I don't because I don't know how to find them. I did not follow FS during 6.0 era. If I look at a historic scoreboard, the names say nothing to me. I don't know if a skater ended up in the middle/on the bottom because the program was unremarkable or because he/she fell or something. I searched some names on YouTube but there were videos.

However, I think that it would be interesting to see something that was regarded as "unremarkable" back then - just for comparison. Do you have any links to videos that you could bring up as examples?

Well, as an example, here's the final group of the women's free skate from 1999 Europeans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqr0wnh6jek

Which includes that year's eventual world champion, and one other program that I found particularly memorable at the time.

How do you feel the program composition compares to what we see today in terms of audience interest?

 

[Mathman]

However, I think that it would be interesting to see something that was regarded as "unremarkable" back then - just for comparison. Do you have any links to videos that you could bring up as examples?

About boring programs in the 6,0 era, Dick Button as commentator was often outspoken about particular performances by particularly skaters (sometimes using ungallant language on the ladies who, in his opinion, didn't measure up.) One was Angela Nikodinov, whose skating he once described as a "refrigerator break" -- and this was before she even took the ice. He later tried to clean it up by explaining that although she had beautiful positions. especially her classic layback. her style was on the category "ooo so pretty" but lacked pizzazz.

Here she is a couple of years later after working on performing. She had the bad timing of having to compete against Michelle Kwan, a riveting performer, for U.S. National honors, and then later with the exquisite but inconsistent Sasha Cohen.

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Internationally, Button regarded Tatiana Malinina (Ilia Malinin's mother) as a solid jumper but with little of interest going on in between.

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Actually, both of thse performances are fine and, as for me, held my attention throughout.

 

[Mathman]

OT -- Here is an interesting factoid about Angela Nikodinov. In 1998 she was the second alternate for the U.S. team for Worlds. Figuring that she was out of luck, she went on a family vacation to Bulgaria. (Her parents had immigratied to the U.S. from Bulgaria, and that was their family home.)

As it turned out, in that post-Olympic Worlds, Olympians Tara Lipinski and Nicole Bobek both withdrew so the USFSA put in urgent calls to see if they could get in touch with Angela motoring through the Balkin Mountains. but without success, and she missed out on a trip to Worlds.

Two years later she was the first runner-up at U.S. National;s. The ISU had just tweaked the age requirement rules and 15-year-o;d Sasha Cohen suddenly wasn't eligible -- unless she could qualify thru the back door by winning a medal at Junior Worlds held a month before senior worlds. When Sasha finished 6th, Algela's coach Richard Callaghan personally called Angela from rinkside at Obersdorf to tell her she was in -- don't go anywhere!