Feminism and Figure Skating

[Mathman]

When I was growing up I don't remember any particular connotation to "lady" -- just a generic nice adult female person (the Library Lady, church ladies, the ladies of the PTA). We were expected to behave like "little ladies and gentlemen," especially at church or a birthday party. The opposite of "little ladies and gentlemen" was "wild Indians."

 

[Olympia]

My recollection is more like that of Mathman, that "lady" was a polite and respectful term to use when referring to an adult female. In fact, where I grew up, I think little kids weren't supposed to use the word "woman." It was too presumptuous, rather aggressive and rude, overly familiar--like addressing an adult by her first name.

Linguistics scholars would have a field day with this. In fact, I think I'll bring this up with my friend, a linguistics professor. I'm sure she'll find it absorbing.

 

[jcoates]

I get the impression that my mother is around the same age as Doris based on her posts in this thread and I spent a lot of time around my grandparents, so I'm very familiar with the connotation she mentioned about the word. I also am familiar with the uses Mathman mentions. People at church or leading youth groups I was a part of used ladies and gentlemen in a similar way while trying to mold up.

BTW, I could not help but snicker a bit because the descriptions Doris brought up of young girls acting as ladies reminded me 100% of Margaret in the Dennis the Menace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nji_dPCHjRo#t=120s

 

[dorispulaski]

Little kids were supposed to address adults (and in fact anyone significantly older than they were) by their name: i.e. Mrs. Smith. It was a cardinal sin to refer to Mrs. Smith as 'She'. Consequently, the question of whether to say Mrs. Smith was a Woman or a Lady never came up. She was Mrs. Smith; no pronouns allowed. If Mrs. Smith was a close friend of your mother, she might become a courtesy aunt, like my Aunt Kit (who wasn't related to us at all). There were also courtesy uncles. My husband had an Uncle Joe that he only recently learned was no relation at all.

Conversation was often similar to movies about boot camp: Yes, Drill Sargent Smith, No Drill Sargent Smith, Yes Sir, No Ma'am, etc.

My mother had a cleaning lady. The cleaning lady's name was Mrs. Baruch. My parents always called her Mrs. Baruch, just as we kids did. I didn't learn her first name until I saw her obituary.

And the fuss would be immense if you ever referred to your mother as She.

 

[callalily]

In response to Doris..

From my earliest memories (various places in Canada in the 60's/70's) the word "lady" definitely had a positive connotation for my parents' generation; it implied being refined, well-mannered, well-bred. "Woman" was a coarser word, perhaps slightly negative when used to refer to others socially ("Oh, that woman! What did she think she was doing?").

The connotations of the word were changing, though, in my environment. The young, university-aged women I knew in the 70's thought of themselves as "women", most definitely. I think we saw the word lady as old-fashioned; it seemed to imply fussiness, constraints, and limited roles. The word "woman" to us was neutral; it seemed to imply that many paths were open.

 

[skatinginbc]

Language is in constant change. “Nigger” was initially used in a neutral context until the early 1900s when it was deemed pejorative. In its stead, the term “colored” was invented, which in my mind is equally disparaging. It reminds me of the archaic Chinese term 色目人 “people with colored eyes” in reference to the alien white race (Yes, white people are “colored” in the eye of others). To me, “colored” has a connotation of “different, alien, outgroup, not us.” I wonder how long the expression “colored people” will last before it becomes “politically incorrect.”

As long as the general attitude toward a group of people remains negative, whatever the neutral label assigned to that people will eventually turn to be offensive. The word “gay” will become disparaging and neither “lady” nor “woman” will keep free from sexist definitions. Changing the attitude, not the label, is the only long-term solution.

Ironically, Robin Lakoff, a professor of linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, predicted in her 1975 book Language and Woman's Place that the term “lady” would be replacing “woman” because the latter was marked (not neutral). Indeed, there were women, especially those from the lower class, got all worked up for not being called “lady” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady). Hehe, she was wrong. It went the opposite way. In the past few decades, the word “lady” becomes increasingly marked and “woman” turns neutral. “Lady” has acquired the semantic features of being “conservative”, “dated”, “patronizing” (e.g, “Watch your step, young lady”; “that little old lady”) and “trivializing” (e.g., “lady doctor”, “lady friend”). “Woman”, on the other hand, has lost the negative connotations of lack of respect it once had and has been increasingly used in the positive contexts as evidenced by its collocates (e.g., working women, ambitious women). Here is my little demonstration of computational linguistic evidence (the numbers in the brackets below denote the numbers of results shown from a google search)
powerful lady (173,000) vs. powerful woman (1,340,000) = 0.129
bitchy lady (63,800) vs. bitchy woman (121,000) = 0.527
See? “Lady” is now associated more with a negative context (e.g., “bitchy”).

Despite all that, language is in constant change, and I would not worry about it until the White House seriously considers a change of the title “First Lady” to “First Woman”. Otherwise, I would still say “Big deal” to the lady vs woman debate. Focus our energy on changing attitudes, not labels.

 

[Olympia]

Skatinginbc, are you referring to the word "colored" as it is used in Canada today? Because things are a bit different in the U.S. In the postwar period or thereabouts, colored was already getting disapproval and was outdated. The term Negro was used in the early to mid-1960s. A notable example that has survived is the way Sidney Poitier is referred to as a Negro in the movie Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Then both of those terms were spurned by many people to whom they referred. The term black was preferred, or Afro-American, which later became African American. (The latter term has a narrower application, of course, because it can't refer to black people living in other countries. I don't know what the equivalent term would be in Canada--Afro-Canadian?) Interestingly, recently I have heard the term a person of color used acceptably, but not colored. I have to keep an eye on these things because I work in textbook publishing. At this moment, African American is the generally preferred term, though of course that doesn't mean that everyone likes it.

For years, we have been directed to use "woman" instead of "lady" or "female" when we need to differentiate by gender. We also use firefighter instead of fireman, police officer instead of policeman, and even utility cover instead of manhole (because there could be woman construction workers--not female construction workers). I wonder how the French handle gender-neutral names, because all French nouns have to have one gender or another.

 

[skatinginbc]

Skatinginbc, are you referring to the word "colored" as it is used in Canada today? Because things are a bit different in the U.S. In the postwar period or thereabouts, colored was already getting disapproval and was outdated.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is me who is outdated. In Canada, I actually haven't heard of "colored people" but I have encountered "people of color" in articles. I should have used "people of color" instead as the example in my previous post. I personally don't see too much difference between "colored people" and "people of color"--Both are somewhat negative to my ear.

The term black was preferred, or Afro-American, which later became African American. (The latter term has a narrower application, of course, because it can't refer to black people living in other countries. I don't know what the equivalent term would be in Canada--Afro-Canadian?)

You probably wouldn't believe it, but there are very few black people in BC that are not recent immigrants from Africa. We simply call them "Canadians" or "immigrants from Africa" or, if to specify the race for a purpose, "black". I've never heard of "Black Canadians" or "Afro-Canadians" while living in BC although in theory such expressions might exist. I don't know how they are called in the Eastern provinces where there are more black people.

 

[callalily]

Okay, to weigh in from a Canadian context, I haven't heard the word coloured in Canada since the 60's! (Skatinginbc -where is your "u" - are you an American? - Just kidding! Guess our "u" will be gone in a few years, another example of language change in action!)

Black has been the usual term in Canada since 70's, yet it has fallen out of favour () recently, and is often replaced by "people of colour". (Afro-American was never used, since we aren't Americans, and Afro-Canadian never existed as a term, to my knowledge.)

For many years, we have used gender-neutral terms such as firefighter, flight attendant, police officer, etc. Olympia asked about the French - the Canadian province of Quebec pioneered the use of "female" terms for occupations that previously did not exist in the French language - l'avocate, la directrice, for example.

The evolution of language is a fascinating area of study, IMO. It both reflects and shapes our changing values. Is it important? I'm reluctant to get on a soapbox about it - that just puts people off - but I feel it is actually very important. Take the term "woman driver" for example. Back in the 60's/70's, it was a common term. It implied that women were poor drivers, and reinforced that idea at the same time. That was a common viewpoint back then. Nowadays, I never hear people implying that women shouldn't drive, or are poor drivers...also the term "woman driver" has disappeared. However, just a few years ago I visited Britain with my kids, and we saw an article about "women drivers"...they wanted to know what that was all about - I explained, and they said, "...So women don't drive well?" Okay, right...

 

[skatinginbc]

Skatinginbc -where is your "u" - are you an American?

I lived in the US before I moved to Canada. My American husband, who received his Canadian citizenship over a decade ago, still makes fun of "Oot and Aboot" (Out and About).

 

[callalily]

I lived in US before I moved to Canada. My American husband still makes fun of Canadian "Oot and Aboot" (Out and About).

Well then he doesn't know what he's talking about! As if we actually use the "oo" sound!

Regardless, it's all a matter of local language variation, as we know.

Maybe someday all of us North Americans will be able to tell the difference between cot and caught, as the Brits would have it!

 

[skatinginbc]

Take the term "woman driver" for example. Back in the 60's/70's, it was a common term.

I do find the attributive use of "woman" or "lady" offensive. In English, a noun adjunct (noun1 + noun2) is used for either (1) an agent or (2) a specific kind.

(1) Agent (where N1 is the object of the verb whence N2 is derived)
garage opener = device that opens a garage.
window cleaner = thing that cleans the window.
crime stopper = one that stops a crime.
woman driver = one that drives a woman.

(2.A) A specific kind (where N1 is the object of an implied preposition)
rain forest = forest with lots of rain
grammar book = book on grammar
table lamp = lamp for a table
baby clothes = clothes for a baby
lady doctor = doctor for a lady

(2.B) A specific kind (where N1 is the object of an implied verb or verbal phrase)
brick house = house made of bricks
chicken soup = soup that contains chicken
apple tree = tree that produces apples.
lady doctor = doctor that produces ladies.

(2.C) A specific kind (where N1 serves as a diminutive or trivializing appositive to N2)
man toy => a toy that is a man (a lesser man, almost just a mannequin)
boy scout => a scout who is a boy (young and inexperienced).
student teacher => a teacher who is currently a student pursuing a degree in education (inexperienced and not fully certified).
lady doctor => a doctor who is a lady (What a surprise! Probably inexperienced and less qualified).:disapp:
woman driver => a driver who is a woman (Watch out! She might hit you by accident).

 

[Olympia]

As I understand the term "people of color," it was coined by the people to whom it refers, which means that it is probably meant as self-identification and without negative connotations. But I'm not a linguistics expert; I'm just going by my experiences from living in a large, mixed city and from doing a lot of reading. Some people use it to refer to almost every nonwhite group, as an expression of solidarity, even including people from the Middle East, who are considered by anthropologists to be (in the old terminology) Caucasian.

The whole issue of feminine versions of job terms such as l'avocat and la directricein French (in other Romance languages too, I'll bet) and the English aviatrix and editress (one I heard long ago in the U.K.) seems to be viewed differently depending on the culture. Most American feminists from the 1970s on didn't welcome such terms because they implied a difference between the two genders as they performed these jobs--kind of a one-word equivalent of the terms lady doctor or woman driver. The really strict feminists even insisted on using actor for both men and women. This is doable in English, which has the possibility of gender-neutral terms. Articles and adjectives in English don't change form to modify masculine and feminine nouns, so there's no requirement to reflect gender in any terms except mother, father, woman, man, and the like.

This makes me curious as to how French and Italian feminists dealt with the innate structure of their language. Maybe that shade of meaning of the words just matters less to them.

As an aside: I don't know about Britain nowadays, but in the seventies and before, they seemed to have more terms in general use that reflected female gender. In one women's magazine, there used to be a column called "From Your Editress." I never encountered that term in the U.S. The editor of Ladies Home Journal was an editor. In Louisa May Alcott's time (as reflected in her novel An Old-Fashioned Girl IIRC, the term poetess existed. But that was in the 1870s or thereabouts. By the twentieth century, Edna St. Vincent Millay and Elinor Wylie were called poets. Of course, one of the best-known gender-differentiated terms was stewardess. Since the 1970s, we have referred to women holding that job as flight attendants.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

You have to remember that African-American refers generally to the descendants of slaves who don't know which country their ancestry lies (calling someone African-American is like calling someone European-American - the amount of diversity in Africa renders it a relatively meaningless phrase). While there are people in Canada who are descended from slaves, immigration has shifted the ratios. I myself am a first generation Canadian, but since I know where my parents come from, the term "Afro-Canadian" pisses me off. If you have to define me, I'd much rather be called black. I wouldn't describe myself as a negro, though I don't get offended by that word (though I do by the other one.).

Spun, the statistic you posted was startling. Why aren't people more up in arms about it? Ignorance (as in, I had no idea), confusion (what does it mean? Is it applicable to the whole country, or just NYC), and a general unwiillingness to debate the complexities that underly it (what could be done to improve it?). And looking at the statistics from the NYC government website, I have to admit I'm a little confused as to terminology (I presume spontaneous termination - miscarriage; induced = abortion).

 

[Olympia]

That's an excellent question, Pogue. Actually, the word abortion was always used medically for the end of a pregnancy, including what we call a miscarriage (a spontaneous termination). This may still be true. So the statistics may simply reflect all pregnancies that did not reach completion. I don't get the impression that this high a percentage of people voluntarily terminate pregnancies in any location. I haven't researched it, though. Remember, as in many sizable cities in the U.S., a lot of people in New York are Catholics or conservative Christians, or orthodox Jews, or observant Muslims.

And you're right about the idea behind the term African American. Most black Americans are descended from people whose original specific affiliation is now unknown. (I hesitate to say country, because national borders were largely imposed by the colonial powers, and I hesitate to say tribe, because that word now has negative connotations.) As more people are able to use their DNA to trace their exact heritage, I suppose this might change.

Additionally, though, African American reflects a pan-African view that many people hold over and above any identification with a particular ethnic group of location within Africa. There are some moving accounts written by the generation of civil rights activists who were young in the early 1960s, as they observed many African countries gaining their independence. John Lewis, one of my great heroes, wrote that he and others visited some of these countries and were buoyed up by seeing Africans running governments, law enforcement organizations, and businesses. It was a watershed moment for the American movement to witness this. And they didn't have to travel to Africa to see it, either. Right in our own hemisphere, Jamaica and other Caribbean islands became independent nations around the same time.

 

[Mathman]

Showing my age, I have never cured myself of saying "lady policeman." Now that there are more of them, their counterpart is a "man policeman."

I think the term "colored people" was popularized, if not invented, by W.E.B. DuBois. The word "black" has a negative connotation independent of race, like "the guy in the black hat" meaning the villain (OT: "Villain" = commoner who lives in the village, as opposed to the nobility who live in the castle on the hill.) Also, in slavery times, the field hands were "black," while the "house niggers" -- a higher social caste which persists to this day -- were "high yellow" (mixed).

DuBois founded the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People specifically to counter the teaching of respected "Negro" educator Booker T. Washington. (The NAACP has since been "co-opted by the black boozhwahzee." )

I believe that the more recent "people of color" is a conscious attempt to reach out to and identify with non-Eiropean peoples throughout the world, as Olympia says, including people of the Indian subcontinent and middle east.

About African American, I think as the population of the United States evolves in the present century we are hearing the term "European American" more and more, even as terms like "Irish American," "Polish American," etc., are passing away.

 

[Medusa]

Is really being a lady against modern concepts and fast-paced life style, like Medusa said? I don't think so.

Why can't women be sweet, soft-spoken, humble, as well as capable? Why can't women have more self-respect, more dignity, and not so forward in friendships and personal relationships? Why can't women be more humble, and recognize and accept that there are somethings that men are more capable of and do better? Why can't women give men chances to let them be men which are men's pride? Something could be shameful are not shameful any more, such as legalizing prostitutions, one-night-stands, living together before marriage.

Seeing more teenage girls' forwarding manners towards the objects of their crushes is, even to me, a bit terrifying. Seeing and hearing more and more what I believe to be selfish and self-centric advices from so called experts given to new mothers and new parents, also seeing how so many parents ignore their children's needs in education, guidances, and health is heartaching.

Actually, Medusa didn't say that being a lady, with the in this discussion described attributes, is against modern concepts and a fast-paced life style. I actually believe that we, living a comfortable life full of luxury and riches, are much more able to be the kind of ladies you describe, than women have been ever before in our history. The only thing I was questioning was how realistic your comparisions to the past are.

See, I actually love what you write about self-respect and dignity, because it's something I really like to see in people, men and women alike. And yes, some teenage girls seem to struggle with achieving such a state a lot. But I simply can't get on board with the part about how women should let men have their pride. How is it my job to make sure that they can be proud of themselves? To me, pride, self-respect and dignity ist just something that has to come from your inner self, from your experiences, from your character.

And I don't know what experts you are talking about, but the advise from paediatricians and child psychiatrists I read clearly states that children do best in stable homes with two parents, a regular schedule, lots of love, not a lot of TV-time, not a lot of computer-time... Research also points to the fact that a baby does best when staying at home with mom or dad for the first year, that nursing the babies is recommended etc. I don't know what's selfish about advise like that.

I think it's better to cite the original data rather than refer people to a site with an agenda.

When I look at data like that, I wonder why the abortion rate is so high; I'm sure the vast majority of pro-choice people do not want to see such a trend. But I don't want to look at it and condemn the women who made the decision to have an abortion, because I do not know the circumstances behind the data. Instead, I want to consider what can be done at the social, educational, or public health level to change this.

There was an article in the NYT back in summer about the abortion rate - and it really shocked me. And I think it was the real abortion rate, not including miscarriages. I still can't think of an explanation. It's just horrible.

 

[Olympia]

If that is the real rate, that's very unsettling. If abortion is the principal method of family planning, something is deeply wrong with medical care.

Math, this year for the first time, I read some of Du Bois's writings, from The Souls of Black Folk. (So Du Bois used both terms; I wonder what distinction he made.) It's a beautiful book, written in an unadorned, timeless style that makes it very much accessible to modern readers. One chapter talked about his experienced as a college-educated man assigned to teach in a rural area of the South. His word portraits of the people in the community are vivid and warm. For anyone who's interested, it's online. One thing it reminds us is how much we've progressed since then--and how many people worked incredibly hard, often at great risk, to bring about that progress.

 

[dorispulaski]

jcoates, yes, our picture of a right little lady would definitely be Margaret in Dennis the Menace. Plus she dressed for play in those little ankle socks with the lacy edges, & skirts. Dennis & Margaret are 60 Years Old this year (and since he started as a 6 or 7 year old, he definitely is in my general age cohort.
http://www.dennisthemenace.com/

But I was thinking of a particularly annoying cousin of mine.....not Margaret.

By the way, we represented the distinction that others have cited as ladies and gentlemen as "nice" and it's opposite "not-nice". As in Nice Girls Don't Do That, said by your mother.

I find the changes in language fascinating, but don't pretend to understand them.

The discussion has caused me to wonder how much the language of Southeastern CT, where I grew up, was influenced by a rabid hatred for the British. SE CT has the distinction of having had battles in both the War of 1812 and the American Revolution.

The Battle of Groton Heights was a complete massacre (meaning, of course, the British won decisively, and killed people who surrendered). Typical feelings are reflected by this epitaph of a man who had several sons die at Groton Heights & was wounded himself.

In memory of

Capt

Solomon Perkins

who died

Nov. 4th 1809

in the 81st year

of his age

Ye British tyrants
that have power
And butchers wet
with Humane Gore
Judgement must come
and you will be
Rewarded for your

His table milk jug had a handle made of an eagle swallowing a fish, so that he could relish the ultimate defeat of the British.

Needless to say, if the British did it, these people were not doing it, and their attitudes took a long time to alter.

The Battle of Stonington in 1814 was, such as it was, a victory for the residents of Stonington

http://www.hotfreebooks.com/book/Th...gust-9th-to-12th-1814-J-Hammond-Trumbull.html

There is a rather flowery poem about it somewhere, that was bowdlerized to the following ditty (told me by my dad):

Two ships and a brig
Shot 2 cows and a pig
And wounded a goose in the thigh
And such was the valor of the brave British tars at the Battle of Stonington

It did not improve the local opinion of the British however. My grandma was still quite vehement about it. Solomon would have been her great great grandfather. However, it's a long-lived family, many living into their 90's and 100's. Solomon died young, in their opinion.

When I was young (late 50's, very early 60's), the polite term was "colored".

My father had a small marina & tackleshop then, and rented boats to people who went fishing, including African American men from Hartford who went fishing for porgies. I used to work in the shop occasionally. As part of my introduction to the business, my dad told me the following.

Doris, Several colored gentlemen from Hartford have rented boats and gone fishing together here for many years. They always refer to each other as Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones, despite being friends for many years. You must be sure to be extra polite to our colored customers, since they are much more formal than we are.

 

[Buttercup]

There was an article in the NYT back in summer about the abortion rate - and it really shocked me. And I think it was the real abortion rate, not including miscarriages. I still can't think of an explanation. It's just horrible.

I agree that it's appalling, but I'm not sure how it got into a discussion of feminism - I don't think it has much to do with feminism or liberalism. Are abortion rates this high in your country? They're certainly not anywhere near that where I live. Actually, I think Olympia is probably correct that it is indicative of abortion being used as a method of family planning. Why would such a thing happen? If research can provide answers to that question, maybe appropriate policies and interventions can be enacted, so that we can achieve the goal of making abortion safe, legal - and rare.

If that is the real rate, that's very unsettling. If abortion is the principal method of family planning, something is deeply wrong with medical care.