Feminism and Figure Skating | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Feminism and Figure Skating

Come on. If you can read Chinese, why don't you just google "色目人"? You shall see it is an archaic term used in the Yuan Dynasty.
I can't read Chinese, but I can google for 色目人:laugh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semu

Coming back to the original purpose of the OP of this thread. JSport showed a bunch of Worlds where Japanese girls won. I "rewatched" Worlds-94 (since I was too little back in 1994, but I have seen some vids on youtube). Rather fun! How seriously ladies' FS has changed since then. Girls were more women-looking, with hips, etc. Well, Bonaly had of course not the best skating skills, not the best at all. But in my opinion she was one of the most telling victims of all this "lady/ice-princess" crap in FS. She was pure African by birth, with characteristic African features. That is where she should have played. Unfortunately FS was (and is) rather conservative in accepting a new style. So, she followed this "ice-princess" idea, with classic music, pretty dress, balletic features, etc. ... and she turned herself into a ridiculous show. She lost because she looked pathertic in that "ice-princess" field where she didn't belong to. But it looked like she had no choice, because her unique style was not accepted either. Seems like Meite learned Bonaly's lesson and now she is trying to be a black "ice princess". Well.
Yeah, it's wonderful to see a beautifully skating beauty on the ice, like Mao. But when you have to see a bunch of copies a la mini-Shizuka, like it happened with me in J-Nationals gala in Osaka, it bored me somehow.
 
Gosh, I hope this will stop soon, or “female” is doomed at the hands of women.



(3) It creates linguistic ambiguity.
Woman doctor = doctor for a woman or a female doctor?
Woman killer = one who kills a woman or a female killer?

(4) It is overly marked that it is derogatory in itself.
When one has to clarify the gender of a position holder, it already implies that the person is not in her proper role. In other words, it is already marked. On top of that, to use “woman” in place of a bona fide adjective “female” is double-marked because an appositive noun is syntactically stronger than an adjective. It thus falls into the category of (2.C) A specific kind (where N1 serves as a diminutive or trivializing appositive to N2) as I have explained in my post #173.

I never understood the antipathy to "female" myself. It seems more useful because it is in itself an adjective (though it can be used as a noun of course), whereas "woman" isn't. I don't know which exalted people get to make these rules. I'd have voted no, as you would have.

Let's talk, by coincidence I was watching an old MGM movie on the wonderful Turner Classic Network last night, and I came upon a dance by Cyd Charisse. She was one of the great stars of the golden age of movie musicals, one of the few women to have danced with both Fred Astaire (in The Band Wagon and others) and Gene Kelly (in Singin' in the Rain and others). This woman had a figure! She had not only a bustline but hips. So did Leslie Caron, who also danced with both Astaire and Kelly. Significantly, both these women were ballet trained (unlike tap queen Ann Miller). Clearly, in those days, a ballet dancer could have a woman's figure. Now, ballet hasn't changed as quantitatively as skating has. There are no triple-triples in ballet. Yet today, a girl is expected not just to be light (for lifting) but practically androgynous in figure, at least in America. No chest, no hips. I know that this was George Balanchine's influence to a great degree, but I wonder if anything else led to it.

In skating, this is also true, and it's rationalized that this makes jumping easier. But as you pointed out, it narrows down the possibilities of what makes a beautiful skating image. I didn't love Bonaly's basic skating skills: her stroking and one-direction-only footwork seemed choppy to me. But I liked a lot of what she brought to skating, and I wanted her to succeed, because she gave us a new way of looking at skating. Innovation in skating isn't just adding another rotation to a jump. Similarly, Rory Flack Burghardt was someone I always loved to watch, because her more jazz-based style as well as her ethnicity introduced refreshing diversity into the approach of skating, not just its look. (Thank goodness Burghardt got to take advantage of the heyday of pro skating, because we really got to see her shine.) Joannie Rochette, who has a real-girl strength to her skating, is another one I'd love to see staying around for the same reasons.

I love Mao Asada and want her to win everything in sight. But I do hope that everyone else can strive and win with different "equipment"--different body shapes, different approaches to the music, different ways of moving. Otherwise, we might as well just make up a CGI of Mao and put it on with different moves year after year.
 
I can't read Chinese, but I can google for 色目人:laugh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semu
Thanks for your link. I was shocked to learn that "Contrary to popular belief, the term "Semu" (interpreted literally as "color-eye") did not imply that caste members had "colored eyes" in contrast with black-eyed Mongol Yuan people." My Chinese History teacher in the Middle School told us it meant "colored eyes", and I have held that belief up till now.
 
Well, Bonaly had of course not the best skating skills, not the best at all. But in my opinion she was one of the most telling victims of all this "lady/ice-princess" crap in FS. She was pure African by birth, with characteristic African features. That is where she should have played. Unfortunately FS was (and is) rather conservative in accepting a new style. So, she followed this "ice-princess" idea, with classic music, pretty dress, balletic features, etc. ... and she turned herself into a ridiculous show. She lost because she looked pathertic in that "ice-princess" field where she didn't belong to. But it looked like she had no choice, because her unique style was not accepted either. Seems like Meite learned Bonaly's lesson and now she is trying to be a black "ice princess". Well.
Yeah, it's wonderful to see a beautifully skating beauty on the ice, like Mao. But when you have to see a bunch of copies a la mini-Shizuka, like it happened with me in J-Nationals gala in Osaka, it bored me somehow.

In skating, this is also true, and it's rationalized that this makes jumping easier. But as you pointed out, it narrows down the possibilities of what makes a beautiful skating image. I didn't love Bonaly's basic skating skills: her stroking and one-direction-only footwork seemed choppy to me. But I liked a lot of what she brought to skating, and I wanted her to succeed, because she gave us a new way of looking at skating. Innovation in skating isn't just adding another rotation to a jump. Similarly, Rory Flack Burghardt was someone I always loved to watch, because her more jazz-based style as well as her ethnicity introduced refreshing diversity into the approach of skating, not just its look. (Thank goodness Burghardt got to take advantage of the heyday of pro skating, because we really got to see her shine.) Joannie Rochette, who has a real-girl strength to her skating, is another one I'd love to see staying around for the same reasons.

Now, this is interesting to me (and back on a topic that belongs in The Edge where the thread was posted originally).

Figure skating values effortless smooth gliding and smooth movement in general. It also explicitly values "clarity of movement" and what it considers good carriage and alignment (see under Performance/Execution).
The reason is that those qualities describe a higher skill level than someone who lurches around and breaks at the waist, etc., while attempting the same moves, be they stroking or jump landings, etc. But the wording also makes it seem as though intentional choreographic choices that emphasize staccato movement or nonclassical body shapes should not be rewarded as much as smoothness and classicism. And maybe sometimes judges understand it that way as well and don't give less traditional choices their due.

If a skater is able to achieve those highly valued qualities, will she automatically come across as an ice princess, regardless of her body type or the style of music and choreography through which she chooses to present herself? The examples of Flack and Rochette given above suggest not. Debi Thomas and Tonya Harding come to mind as others who were able to place well with non-princessy choices of performance persona. Maybe Irina Slutskaya. Other examples?

Then you have Bonaly, who was deficient in those areas compared to her athletic power (speed; fairly big and fairly consistent jumps). So when she placed well it was on the strength of her superior athletic skills, and when she placed lower than others with comparable or weaker jump content it was because of her weaknesses in areas like skating skills and clarity of movement, carriage, and body line.

Male skaters could probably get away with weaker skating technique if there was enough power, and with rougher carriage, alignment, body line, etc. especially if the skating skills were good. But I can't think of any male examples where the disconnect between power and jumping ability on the good side and edge quality/control on the weak side was so extreme as in Bonaly's case.

Especially under 6.0. Under IJS it's easier for judges to separate the different areas that made up the second mark, so a skater with good skating skills but weak carriage could be rewarded and penalized appropriately, assuming judges are not blinded by preferences.

I.e., I think that mostly we're seeing smoothness and grace rewarded for both sexes because better skating is smoother and more graceful (except for nongliding moves such as toe steps, intentional skids like one-foot stops, etc.). Male skaters or proponents of male skating who consider those to be "feminine" qualities resist the need for men to exhibit them, but the judges mostly still tend to reward them for men as well as women, often as much as or more than the difficulty of the technical content.

On the other hand, I do think that judges are influenced by their ingrained cultural expectations/prejudices and are more likely to forgive roughness in edge quality in male than in female skaters.

Is that changing at all, as gender expectations in the wider culture change?

Can we give examples of female skaters who have solid or even good or great skating skills and successfully choose nonprincessy artistic styles?

Shall I move this question to a new thread in The Edge?
 
Now this is interesting. I think you can make a pretty convincing argument that feminism and the consequences have definitely had a direct impact in shifting roles of men in modern, Western culture. But you lose me with the rest of it. Can you choose one damage you feel that the dominant genes (presumably women) have done when not being careful/humble, and how feminism is at fault? I mean a general, cultural example, not a specific one.

I'm surprised that you've forgotten all the examples so far in this thread! I'll give you another one:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm (College gender gap widens: 57% are women)
 
I think this does rate a new thread in The Edge, although we'll probably continue talking about it here, because it's so tempting in a discussion of feminism and skating.

I'm glad you mentioned Debi Thomas. When I recently rewatched a tape of hers, I was amazed at how powerful a presence she had, and what a contrast she provides to so many of the more recent skaters who tend to be small, slim, and sprite-like. (Not all of them are, of course.) Yet she was fluid, graceful, almost feline. Just a wonderful skater, and I'm so sorry she imploded in the long program during the Olympics, because she would have made a wonderful champion. I'm glad she has a world championship to her name and that she spent some time performing as a pro.

Slutskaya had some of that powerful quality as well. Although I always rooted for Michelle, I was happy to have Irina in the mix and was glad that she won world championships and Olympic medals. Tonya Harding, who got a bit sloppy about her training and eating and lost some of her competitive advantage, was wonderful when she was on, and was graceful in her way--which was emphatically not princessy. There definitely should be room for people with that approach to skating, whether they end up being personal favorites of ours or not. They add to skating in general.

Actually, Kerrigan was in some ways a power skater. She was unusually tall for a skater, being I think five foot four, and had a strong build with wide shoulders. She wasn't just likened to Katharine Hepburn because of her cheekbones but because of her strong athleticism. Though Kerrigan was graceful, the princess of the time was Baiul, I'd say.
 
Bluebonnet said:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm

College gender gap widens: 57% are women

So the question is, what should women do about this? Should they drop put of college to protect men's fragile egos?

Imaginary Pogue said:
Why are men being left behind?

I can't speak for all of the U.S., but in my town the primary reason is the appallingly large number of college-aged men who are in prison.
 
***whole post about "woman" versus "female"***

I think Olympia summed it all up in a nutshell. The reason all those phrases ("woman firefighter," etc.) sound wrong is that "woman" is noun being pressed into reluctant service as an adjective, while "female" is already a bona fide adjective. Furthermore, it is an adjective that means exactly what it means without any ambiguity or possibility of misunderstanding.

I suppose the adjectival form of "woman" would be "womanly." She is a womanly firefighter. Meaning, I suppose, she puts out fires in a womanly fashion, as a opposed to a manly fashion.

There are also some instances where, through usage, the adjectival form seems more pleasant and the bare noun seems harsher. "You are a Jew. I am going to beat you up." "You are Jewish. Will you please help me understand this passage of the Talmud?"

Here is a peculiarity:

Lady killer = a debonaire and handsome man.

Man killer = a rogue tiger that eats humans.

In my neck of the woods the word "mannish" is used to chastise little boys who are acting "too big for their britches." "Stop acting so mannish." = "You are not as grown up as you think you are, and you still have to do what I say!"
 
I'm surprised that you've forgotten all the examples so far in this thread! I'll give you another one:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm (College gender gap widens: 57% are women)

Are you thus implying women should drop out of college to make more "room" for men? That higher education makes women coarse? And that I as a woman in college should drop out and live my life assuaging a man's pride?

As a woman in college and member of the generation of less humble women you've bemoaned, I find myself quite offended.
 
So the question is, what should women do about this? Should they drop put of college to protect men's fragile egos?

No, of course not. I think it is more of what should society as a whole do about this? Has there been any campaign for men like the one for women for ages? No. Probably it is a good idea to be back to earth in some degree in order to solve the growing problems. Feminism needs to be straitened. Human society needs to start to pay more attention on men. Men's pride and men's ego need to be emphasized and taught to young boys by society. There are several good books on boys' development. One excellent one is "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. James Dobson which has talked about the disadvantage of boys' nature and the bias against boys in schools. With the neglect of parenting in general, boys need even more prolonged trial and error period and self learning which have now evidently stretched into late teens and early 20s of men's life. As we've seen, boys in general are lack of self-esteem and confidence. More or less blind in future planning and goals. They need more guidance and more attention than girls.

As a woman in college and member of the generation of less humble women you've bemoaned, I find myself quite offended.

You know what? I'm aware of it and prepared. I know that I'm not saying things politically correct. But I don't care as long as I think I'm correct.
 
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No, of course not. I think it is more of what should society as a whole do about this? Has there any campaign for men like the one for women for ages? No. Probably it is a good idea to be back to earth in some degree in order to solve the growing problems. Feminism needs to be straitened. Human society needs to start to pay more attention on men. Men's pride and men's ego need to be emphasized and taught to young boys by society. There are several good books on boys' development. One excellent one is "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. James Dobson which has talked about the disadvantage of boys' nature and the bias against boys in schools. With the neglect of parenting in general, boys need even more prolonged trial and error period and self learning which have now evidently stretched into late teens and early 20s of men's life. As we've seen, boys in general are lack of self-esteem and confidence. More or less blind in future planning and goals. They need more guidance and more attention than girls.

You are aware that men still make up the substantial majority of people in power worldwide in government, business, politics, academia, etc? That there exists a significant gender pay gap in favour of men (even for 'liberal' Canada, it exists: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/the-nightmare-gender-gap/article1488609/)? It would also behoove you to read an academic study of the gender gap--that primarily favours men--that exists worldwide (e.g. here: http://www.uis.unesco.org/Library/Documents/wdr-12_en.pdf).

Look--I think the college gender gap as it exists is an important issue that should be addressed. But saying things like "Feminism needs to be straitened [sic]" and blaming feminism for a varied assortment of ills seem very counter-productive to me.
 
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I wonder how much the absence of fathers affects the incidence of boys with problems. More households today are headed by women. This isn't necessarily because women are bearing children out of wedlock (to use an old-fashioned phrase). Often, men just leave. I know this from experience. So women aren't the only ones who need to step up to the plate. I'm not saying this to express bitterness, because most of the men I know are wonderful partners and fathers. But the statistics in the U.S. (I don't know the Canadian ones) are significant.

As for you, Lilith11, good going! I'm always thrilled to hear about someone pushing ahead with his/her education. Keep up the great work.
 
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Personally, most of the men I know well have never had a fragile ego problem, quite the contrary. Granted, this is in the 50 to 80 age group, where they were brought up as the kings of the universe. Do the young ones have more fragile egos?

Frankly, they seem to suffer more from a sense of entitlement; i.e., that if Johnny can't read, (1955)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,807107,00.html
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Johnny-Cant-Read-about/dp/0060913401
and still can't read (2009)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-10-14-illiteracy_N.htm

omygod, our whole school system has to be fixed, or all the books that have female protagonists have to be removed from the classroom, and the entire method of teaching needs to be fixed.

Maybe we have to scrap public education entirely
http://thenewamerican.com/opinion/sam-blumenfeld/6283-why-johnny-still-cant-read

It's a national problem. :eek:

We discover dyslexia, and things are looked at, perhaps not always productively.


OTOH, if Alice can't add (the "math gender gap" from the 1950's and 1960's), it means Alice is stupid, and Alice's parents need to address the problem if Alice is little, or Alice herself needs to address the problem, if Alice is older, or Alice just needs to accept that girls are more stupid than boys at math, and are inherently inferior anyway. Or, pop ahead many years, it means that Alice was improperly socialized, and there is no gap.

http://thenewamerican.com/opinion/sam-blumenfeld/6283-why-johnny-still-cant-read

Meanwhile, research into dyscalculia is very new. My niece has 2 foster kids, both with the problem. Their father had the problem. The school doesn't recognize or understand the problem, or know its name.

At least there is now a name for it. And an organization. Perhaps there will finally be some progress.
http://www.dyscalculia.org/
 
No, of course not. I think it is more of what should society as a whole do about this? Has there been any campaign for men like the one for women for ages? No. Probably it is a good idea to be back to earth in some degree in order to solve the growing problems. Feminism needs to be straitened. Human society needs to start to pay more attention on men. Men's pride and men's ego need to be emphasized and taught to young boys by society. There are several good books on boys' development. One excellent one is "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. James Dobson which has talked about the disadvantage of boys' nature and the bias against boys in schools. With the neglect of parenting in general, boys need even more prolonged trial and error period and self learning which have now evidently stretched into late teens and early 20s of men's life. As we've seen, boys in general are lack of self-esteem and confidence. More or less blind in future planning and goals. They need more guidance and more attention than girls.



You know what? I'm aware of it and prepared. I know that I'm not saying things politically correct. But I don't care as long as I think I'm correct.

What equivalent men's movement has existed? Perhaps centuries of colonialism, war, nation building, creating male dominated institutions (the Roman Catholic Church, monarchies, universities, business, symphonies, etc.), a society that worships violent contact sports in some countries (US, UK, Australia, Canada). The entire framework of our western society has been set up for a few thousand years now to favor men over women.

As for using books by James Dobson, you might want to cite a more credible source. He is a thoroughly discredited political figure masquerading as a practicing mental health expert. His ideas have been universally rejected by the mainstream psychology community. He has spent most of his career building up right wing social conservative movements and organizations based more on religious positions (Focus on the Family, The Family Research Council, etc.) than on any evidence based ideas. That fact that he uses his background as a psychologist to push a religious agenda is highly unethical.
 
jcoates, I have discovered a few pages ago in this thread that how different level of moral standard you and I each held. I've nothing to say to you on your ridiculous assertions, same as last time. I think there are too many people who think and act like how you think and act, which in turn actually are the very source of many growing problems!:p That's why I've said, "No wonder...";) I am putting you on my ignore list since I'm not willing to discuss this with you any more. I'll wish you the best anyway!
 
The wit and wisdom of James Dobson:

It's important to beat your dog
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=001112;p=0

Also your four year old.
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...james-dobson/the-rod-of-discipline-29804.html

Just never use your hands to do it-only a rod, stick, belt or similar beating aid.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/W00021.html

OTOH, it seems a bit eyebrow raising to suggest on one hand beatings for all, and on the other hand, worrying about the self esteem of boys so beaten, given that beatings do not generally seem to raise self esteem. See above link.

I would not use James Dobson as a guide to anything, let alone dog or child training. YMMV
 
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