Figure Skating and Ballet

[Olympia]

Thanks, mskater93, ivy, and the others of you who are knowledgeable about the effects of ballet training for skaters. It's satisfying to realize the importance of this training for more than just the look of a skating program (though of course ballet benefits that as well).

 

[colleen o'neill]

I started doing this on my wordpad yesterday, because I knew I'd get caught up in other things. Then this morning , I find mskater and ivy have made excellent posts ,and I agree completely with what they've said.

I'm always arguing for the inclusion of ballet in a skater's training , but part of that is because ballet lessons are pretty widely available. It could just as well be modern dance ( a la Martha Graham , e.g. ) , rhythmic gymnastics ..anything that trains the student to be aware of , to use and control their whole body simultaneously , keeps them centred and develops balance and presentation. Since both of these other disciplines borrow from , or incorporate ballet in their regimen , I usually just cite ballet when discussing the question.

( I should note that when I refer to balance I don't mean just the ability to hold an extension on one leg, I also mean the ability to change feet , change direction, postion etc. quickly and fluidly and still keep centred )

Also , I don't mean to say that every skater should look classically balletic in style in every program. Style can be variable and change with the choreography , or the skater may develop a unique style of their own that is recognizable in everything they do. Ballet can help in the one case , and certainly shouldn't hinder the other.

Ballet will also strengthen areas like weak ankles , or the muscles that support the knees, so the skater who was cited earlier as having too much flexibility in these areas must have had a natural weakness ; it wouldn't have been caused by ballet , it should have been helped , if the training was good. Ballet will also increase the student's natural jumping elevation on the floor, so I can't imagine it would work counter to jumping ability on the ice , though I realize there are also skating-specific techniques that come into play.

When people say OK but get the skating first, I want to know do they literally mean skate only first for a few years and then try to pick up some ballet , or do they mean do both but make skating the priority ? If it's the former, it's asking for problems that could be avoided. For example, once a stiffness in the upper back shoulders and arms has been allowed to set in, when you try to address it say ,in the late teens or early twenties..yes, you can make improvement, but the result won't ever be as good as if it had been developed at an early stage, when the bones and muscles (including the brain muscle.. ) are still supple and pliable.

If it's been trained all along, the relaxed tension mskater speaks of is just there.It will be completely natural.
It takes an extraordinary amount of time and effort to try to fix these problems at a late stage...time that could be spent refining a program , or any number of other ways.

Also, in the areas where ballet can provide strength and support , say knees, ankles , back , e.g., it can help a skater avoid injury that they may be susceptible to without that training...injuries that may come from doing something repeatedly without that strength and support.

So I say whether it's ballet ,or_? ... make it an integral part of the training from the get go. It doesn't have to take an equal amount of time as on ice..skating should be the priority... but it should be a regular , daily part of the regimen.

 

[gkelly]

When people say OK but get the skating first, I want to know do they literally mean skate only first for a few years and then try to pick up some ballet , or do they mean do both but make skating the priority ? If it's the former, it's asking for problems that could be avoided. For example, once a stiffness in the upper back shoulders and arms has been allowed to set in, when you try to address it say ,in the late teens or early twenties..yes, you can make improvement, but the result won't ever be as good as if it had been developed at an early stage, when the bones and muscles (including the brain muscle.. ) are still supple and pliable.

Keep in mind that for the most part skaters who go on to reach elite levels sometimes start skating (though not necessarily focused training) even before they start school, often by age 7, and almost all before age 10. For the first part of those years they may just be having fun on the ice and later decide to get serious.

The girls may also take ballet lessons for fun -- it's pretty rare at least in North America for little boys to take ballet for fun. They'll study it if they want to be dancers or if they think it will help them with sports (skating or otherwise), but that's usually a bit older when they're ready to get serious about something.

The point when a skater decides to get serious about training for competitive figure skating would be the most likely time to start thinking about complementing the on-ice training with off-ice disciplines such as ballet. They may already be working on double jumps by the time they make that decision.

And some preteen and teen girls might decide to do both skating and dance classes for fun without aiming for elite levels.

As I mentioned, most ballet techniques will be beneficial for skating. There are a few that can interfere with skating techniques. So it's important that a skater who is serious about being the best possible skater s/he can be (and not necessarily the best possible ballet dancer) works with ballet instructors who do not insist on overtraining skills that will be counterproductive for the skating.

Also someone who comes to skating at an older age having already trained for years to be a ballet dancer will need to unlearn some habits. But if it's at an older age, they're probably not aiming at elite skating. And the dance training will certainly mostly be a help compared to no prior training.

 

[double_flip]

Greetings all!

I've been reading since autumn but just registered.

I agree with mskater93's points about the advantages of ballet - if it really gets in your body, the way in which you present, particularly with your upper body, will always reflect this. I danced for 7 years before starting to skate at 12. Ballet got me off to a running start in skating - it gave me a good sense of musicality, a killer spreadeagle and I picked up jumps quickly ( I had been more of a jumper that a turner in ballet). I found spinning much more challenging, in part because dancers "spot" (stare at a spot on the wall and snap the head back to it on each turn), whereas you'd probably break your neck if you did that during a spin. Despite the advantages of ballet, I never felt I achieved the sense of skating from the blade up that the best skaters at my rink had. Of course, none of this was at the elite level, but it may be interesting to add some anecdotal ballet-than-skating experience to the discussion...

Re the trend towards ballet choreography, ITA that the ballerina look isn't one size fits all (and can often, IMO, be quite a snoozefest). One of the things that drew me to skating as a viewer and participant was the freedom of expression, particularly in comparison with ballet. I'd be curious to know if anyone (perhaps Kirk or Ota?) managed to combined dancing en point w/FS training...one's poor feet!

 

[colleen o'neill]

gkelly..Those are good points, and we're really not so far apart on this. I would agree that when a skater decides to take a competitive track is the time to get serious about it. But that can still be at a pretty young age.

And of I course mean that the training should be appropriate for age and intent. Having said that , even at the having fun stage , a little bit of carriage and port de bras ( usually disguised as make believe in ballet classes ) could easily be included, and still be part of having fun on the ice.

I've known ballet teachers who had skaters for students and they had no problem adjusting where they put the emphasis in training for that student.They had discussed their particular needs beforehand. Ideally , if it could be incorporated into the training ,the ballet teacher could have a class just for skaters,which would be more efficient and none of the students wouldn't feel like the odd man out .

 

[gkelly]

Yes, there are definitely ballet teachers who give classes at rinks (many of which have dance studios for off-ice training) or have an arrangement with a rink to refer skaters to their nearby studio.

Some resources:

http://www.balletforfigureskaters.com/
http://reflectionsinverse.blogspot.com/2010/01/relationship-between-ballet-and-figure.html
http://iceskatingresources.org/BalletSkatingRelationship.pdf

http://everythingfigureskating.com/prosCorner/interviews/interview-with-phillip-mills-choreographer/

 

[deedee1]

gkelly..I've known ballet teachers who had skaters for students and they had no problem adjusting where they put the emphasis in training for that student.They had discussed their particular needs beforehand. Ideally , if it could be incorporated into the training ,the ballet teacher could have a class just for skaters,which would be more efficient and none of the students wouldn't feel like the odd man out .

I agree with you, especially the above part, your suggestion for classes just for skaters by professional ballet teachers, discussing with skating coaches their particular needs in skating beforehand.

Sorry to bring up Daisuke again, some of you may think...but this was eaxctly how Dai felt as a boy in late teen: 'odd man out there'.

From his days as a kid skater, Dai was well aware of his unflexibility was his huge disadvantage, and understood the needs for ballet excercises all along; e.g. can't do a spread eagle or ina bauer, can't hit difficult positions on spin.

When Dai was asked 'why did not you start ballet at an earlier age?', he answered something like this.

"Even before taking any lessons, I alreadly knew I could not hit any good positions the instructor tells me to do, due to my unflexibility. I hated to feel embarrased by my inability, hated to see my rather ugly positions which I have to face in the mirror. Did not want to feel disappointed by myself. That's why I was hesitant to ballet for years."

He was very impressed by ballet dancers, regardless of their ages, even kid dancers, they understands very well about their own body, such as bone structures, the mechanism of muscles, even names of smaller bones and muscles, and knowledge on nutrition, of course.

Now he pays much closer attentions to his body, Dai says, not only while in skating but in his daily life; straighten up the back, walk properly, or sit on a chair properly.

I can clearly see his efforts and its progress for better body lines/postures in his skating this season; e.g. his Exhibition program The Crisis, more stretched out leg position in his sit spins. I hope these excercises will help to improve his camel position, too.

 

[SGrand]

Ballet is basically the fundamental of dance and you probably won't find a professional dancer out there (with the exception of street styles etc) who hasn't taken ballet to build their core and lines and make them more aware of their body. Years ago, when I competitive danced, even if we didn't compete in ballet, we still had to take it. In no way were we allowed to compete in jazz, tap, modern etc. without having it. I think it would be beneficial for almost any athlete to take it, but that's probably never going to happen lol. Let's be honest, a lot of hockey, baseball and football players could probably avoid a ton of injuries (hip flexors, groin, back etc) if they worked on their flexibility more. It could be argued that pilates would make for a great skater workout as it's all about your core and building flexibility (balance and control). I think Johnny Weir did it. It's an amazing workout. I agree that not every skater has to look or act balletic, but it gives them the fundamental posture they need to create beautiful, unbroken lines. And again, it can make a body more resilient when it comes to potential injuries and wear and tear. JMO

 

[dorispulaski]

Doubleflip, Welcome to Golden Skate! Post long and often.

Katherine Healy definitely did both skating and en pointe work.

Healy as a ballerina at 13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV29vY3uBTk

Healy as a skater at 15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM0ow-7n1g

 

[sky_fly20]

well doesn't most figure skaters have ballet classes ?

 

[Penny]

Katherine Healy had a long ballet career in Europe.

I'm curious as to what ballet techniques should not be taught to skaters?

 

[deedee1]

Thanks a million for all these informative comments on ballet and/or any other dance exercises.

I hope skaters, espacially young skaters should get to read this thread. Seriously.
They probably do everyday training without getting aware of their own bodies, I fear. Getting to understand their body mechanics will definately help them to avoid potential injuries in future and to stay healthy, so that they can have longer competitive careers than that of today.

Not only this, your guys' deep knowledge and opinions on ANY topics, are just amaging! Really. Just reading all your comments are fascinating and very educative for those who is no familiar/professional to that certain area like me. Again thanks!

 

[gkelly]

I'm curious as to what ballet techniques should not be taught to skaters?

It's not that they shouldn't be taught, but that they don't work well for skating so they shouldn't be emphasized to the point that they become such ingrained habits that the skater does them automatically when they shouldn't.

E.g., spotting during pirouettes/spins.

Also, the free leg and free hip position on scratch spins is not the same as on pirouettes.

 

[brightphoton]

I remember Katherine Healy's ballet teachers disapproved of her involvement with figure skating because they thought it would mess up her ballet technique. So the mapping from ballet skills to skating isn't perfect.

 

[conga]

I definitely agree that ballet is a great foundation for or complement to skating because of the focus on core and centering. That also makes Pilates a great addition to the skater's training regimen.

I vaguely remember Kurt Browning talking about training ballet much later in his career and how it was a positive addition. Does anyone recall that? Perhaps it was after he turned pro or when he met his wife. Not sure.

 

[mskater93]

Yoga is also an awesome addition because THAT also teaches proper breathing technique.

 

[Kitt]

I can tell you what doesn't go with figure skating. Jazz dancing!! All those body oppositions you are taught definitely do not help you stay on your edge.

Stick with ballet for the beautiful lines, core strength, and lovely extensions. Pilates would be good too.

 

[colleen o'neill]

conga ,

Re; Kurt ... it was definitely through meeting his wife , and I think that was around the time he was turning pro.

 

[Mrs. P]

Yoga is also an awesome addition because THAT also teaches proper breathing technique.

Yoga is definitely a love-hate activity for me. I am not very flexible so some of the poses are challenging, but it has definitely helped improve my running, so that's why I love it!

 

[Olympia]

I definitely agree that ballet is a great foundation for or complement to skating because of the focus on core and centering. That also makes Pilates a great addition to the skater's training regimen.

I vaguely remember Kurt Browning talking about training ballet much later in his career and how it was a positive addition. Does anyone recall that? Perhaps it was after he turned pro or when he met his wife. Not sure.

I remember his talking about that, too. He had already turned pro by that time, I'm pretty sure. The dance vocabulary he learned showed up especially in a piece like Nyah. I suspect the training also helped prolong his career; even now in his forties, he retains a lot of his earlier skills.

I echo other posters in thanking the GS people who are knowledgeable in this area for taking the time to explain all this. It's great to have such enlightening information! Little details such as the discrepancy between how spins/pirouettes are done in skating vs. ballet, with no spotting in skating--such fascinating information, and really helpful to know while watching a program.