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- Nov 20, 2011
maybe its just her dress, dunno
I was just asking, well adding weight might cause problems maybe to their lifts ?
2012 Cup of Russia Short Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
maybe its just her dress, dunno
I was just asking, well adding weight might cause problems maybe to their lifts ?
I was responding to a question regarding V/M's TES.
D/W's was 35.25 vs 33.15 for V/M.
As far as BV, D/W had 28.50 vs 27.50 for V/M.
In execution D/W had 6.75 while V/M had 5.65.
V/M slightly higher in PCS: 37.50 vs 37.14 for D/W.
The actual gap between TES + PCS is 1.14, but D/W got -1 deduction for an extended lift, so yes just a gap of .74 points overall.
As usual it's going to be QUITE tight between these two.
You know after watching it again I can see what they were striving for- a more sophisticated and dramatic look and feel so that they could be viewed as more mature in their presentation then a Mary Poppins SD would have given them. I think they probably wanted to give themselves their best chance this season. I could also see themselves wanting a program that stands out from the pack of cutsey polkas. This program could grow once they get more mileage under it and refine the technical components so they get their levels back.
But I'm concerned that choreographically and musically this program is a bit opaque and not readily accessible-which is what you want in a SD. What I love about them is that even though they're young they have such clean, bold lines that really gives them a certain dignity in their presentation. Most of their successful programs retain that dignity - Nat King Cole FD, even last year's second SD was saucy, dynamic and bold (esp in the samba part) but dignified. This program comes off a bit corny- maybe if Alex could take his headband off- but I think it's more than that. The choreography is also a bit flat and not special- which you'd really need special unique choreography to pull this music off.
All in all, even though they've changed it once already this season I wonder if they shouldn't go back to their Mary Poppins number. It would be more clear cut and have that expansive joyful quality that they could really latch on to and perform the heck out of. I remember watching the Italian team at Skate America perform to their Mary Poppins SD and just wishing I could see a more technically proficient team really skate that program lights out. The Shibs could do that.
As for others commenting on how their technical ability has dropped- I don't think that's accurate. I think they're capable of a great deal of difficult technical skating but that their sharpness and conditioning to make sure that all precise edges and minute point getting details are being hit isn't there yet this season. So what we're seeing is just a drop in levels and not in overall technique
Good luck to them for the rest of the season- they're one of my favorite teams.
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Thanks missysays!
On viewing it on YouTube (as opposed to my crappy work connection in real-time), there's actually some positive key points, namely the step sequence. I think they will have a lot of refining to do, and perhaps they would benefit in changing the music in the polka sequence....All in all, I'm don't see the point of trashing this program wholesale. I think they would benefit more from reworking the choreography, which they've done before.
And Missy, I totally get your point RE: clean lines. My husband absolutely loves this team for that reason. But on the other hand, you can't blame them for trying to do something completely different -- the judges clearly sent the message that "young and fresh" won't do last season -- consider how poorly the Shibs score relative to I/K in PCS, who are exactly the same age (18/21).
It's probably worth noting that the Shibs, historically, have never been a strong SD team early in the season. That was in particular obvious last season with the Latin pattern, but even with the Golden Waltz in 2010-2011, it was really only at the end of the season -- Nationals, 4CC and Worlds -- where they really got the solid scores. In fact their PB in the Short Dance is all the way back in 2011 Worlds. They had issues at 4CC/Worlds last season, with Alex having injury/elevation problems, so it's hard to say how their reworked Latin program would have compare. Of course they did it quite well at Nationals.
If you look at their SD scores in 2010-2011: 46.90 (Nelbelhorn; they had errors here); 53.68 (NHK); 56.46 (Skate America); 62.04 (4CC) 66.88 (Worlds)
2011-2012: 58.45 (Finlandia); 57.79 (Cup of China); 59.02 (NHK); 65.53 (GPF); 63.38 (4CC); 62.35 (Worlds)
So in actuality, their score is pretty typical for their first competition and especially considering the last minute switch (the Italian commentators clearly were confused because they thought they were skating to Mary Poppins), the score is not surprising upon further thought.
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- Aug 1, 2011
Can I just add a HUGE thank you to Mao88 for seemingly always posting the standings AND the youtube links for all of these competitions. It is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED (especially for lazy sods like me!).
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- Nov 3, 2006
I'll second that !
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- Dec 12, 2008
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- Jun 3, 2009
V/M: Beautiful but still room for improvement. I expect this dance to peak at the GPF. Those blasted levels, though. Unusual to think that such gifted compulsory dancers struggle as much as they do with the key points, but it demonstrates just how much the SD differs. They've got a lovely, silent-movie purity to their expressions that Renoir would've been jealous of.
I/K: Ummm..... I didn't hate it, but it was still not great. It's about as good as a Morosov dance program is gonna get. It feels way too close to Leonova's SP for my own personal taste, and it's very face-and-arms, but whatever. Well skated. Love that one judge gave them 6.25 for the linking footwork/movement. Wish that other judges followed suit. That stated, the race in Russia will be amazing.
S/Z: Congratulations. You've just hit what is known as the Kustorova wall. It's the wall you smack into when you realize all those shortcuts she taught you that made you unbeatable juniors become liabilities. Over GOEd, overscored... a disappointment.
Shibs: It needs a bit more... choreography, personality whatever. They're actually technically stronger than the Duchesnays, imo - better bladework (especially comparing the ladies), but I think it could be something pretty phenomenal.
Monko/Khaliavin: Eh. The polka looked really laboured.
Orford/Williams: Eh.
Coomes/Buckland: A bit of a mess, really, but the camerawork was atrocious. A lovely dance to listen to.
I/K: Ummm..... I didn't hate it, but it was still not great. It's about as good as a Morosov dance program is gonna get. It feels way too close to Leonova's SP for my own personal taste, and it's very face-and-arms, but whatever. Well skated. Love that one judge gave them 6.25 for the linking footwork/movement. Wish that other judges followed suit. That stated, the race in Russia will be amazing.
S/Z: Congratulations. You've just hit what is known as the Kustorova wall. It's the wall you smack into when you realize all those shortcuts she taught you that made you unbeatable juniors become liabilities. Over GOEd, overscored... a disappointment.
Shibs: It needs a bit more... choreography, personality whatever. They're actually technically stronger than the Duchesnays, imo - better bladework (especially comparing the ladies), but I think it could be something pretty phenomenal.
Monko/Khaliavin: Eh. The polka looked really laboured.
Orford/Williams: Eh.
Coomes/Buckland: A bit of a mess, really, but the camerawork was atrocious. A lovely dance to listen to.
Hm..interesting thoughts IP, especially the Kustorova wall. Are you saying they'll probably score much lower as the season goes on?
I actually do like the I/K program, probably the best Mozorov got for his team. But it looks like he put all his energy in this SD because the FD looks like a total mess. I guess I'm just happy they're not going for the funeral look this year, at least for the SD anyway...
And RE: the Shibs: Can you elaborate why you think this could work and be a great program? It hasn't exactly received rave reviews here and I'm not 100 percent sold, and you know I'm a big fan.
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- Jun 3, 2009
Kustarova wall: Not so much score much lower, but struggle as the years go on (it's unfair to say this since they're likely not skating any more international events this season, but I'd be surprised if they outscored this SD until after Sochi). Their posture is bad. As in really really bad. Like nearly unwatchable. And this program wasn't terribly choreographed or anything (until it got fast paced). And it's going to be so hard to fix. It'll limit their scoring potential. Technically weaker teams - the Kerrs, for example - just run up against it. Compare how she develops her skaters to how Paul McIntosh developed Virtue/Moir and there's a world of difference.
Shibutanis: It's a gorgeously paced program - it's calibrated very strongly and peaks well. Well skated with strong technical elements and it'll leave a good impression. It's different enough for them to be a notable challenge, but not completely out of their wheelhouse either (both do give great face, imo). It's interesting to note that Zoueva really does seem interested in more modern movements - both the Shibs and V/M are trying more unusual body positions throughout their dances (watch Maia's arm movement). It'll need a lot of work - the devil's in the details with this one; I/K aren't three points ahead of them PCS (that's a joke and clear home cooking). But I look forward to this one.
Shibutanis: It's a gorgeously paced program - it's calibrated very strongly and peaks well. Well skated with strong technical elements and it'll leave a good impression. It's different enough for them to be a notable challenge, but not completely out of their wheelhouse either (both do give great face, imo). It's interesting to note that Zoueva really does seem interested in more modern movements - both the Shibs and V/M are trying more unusual body positions throughout their dances (watch Maia's arm movement). It'll need a lot of work - the devil's in the details with this one; I/K aren't three points ahead of them PCS (that's a joke and clear home cooking). But I look forward to this one.
Thanks IP. I think you articulated much better why I can't quite just say "trash it" to the Shibs SD. In the end I think if they did Mary Poppins, they would be accused of not challenging themselves and/or doing the same type of program. I'm going to watch it again and look for the things you pointed out.
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- Mar 16, 2005
OMG! After watching the Shibutani's SD I am in shock how awful it is. Terrible music. Terrible, generic movements. The program has no soul or life. This makes 2 years in a row where Zueva has given them absolute crap. They really need a change. They are going downhill fast and these lame programs are doing nothing to improve or enhance their reputation. Sad to see this because they were one of my favorite teams and I wanted them to do well so the U.S could maintain 3 places for the Olympics. With this disaster of a program, they will be lucky to even make the World team. AWFUL!
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- Nov 22, 2009
Agree with most of this assessment. I don't think this program is salvageable into a good points-getting vehicle. I'd have preferred them to do a literal polka, cheesy and all, over this mess. It's starting to become obvious that they are an "afterthought" team for Zoueva so they should consider moving on, and possibly asap rather than wait for this season to end. They might be able to salvage the end of the season and re-set themselves in a better position for the next Olympic season.
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- Mar 16, 2005
I am just baffled as to what that woman's thought process must have been when creating this. Did she choreograph this with the lights turned off?! As a world class coach I would be embarrassed.
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- Feb 24, 2012
Hold on folks their Long program/dance will be better. the Shibs are such nice peeps; I hope they figure out where they are going. They do a nice interpretation and utilize their Japanese roots. But I am more concerend about V and M - they don't seem to be scoring too well compared to D and W mind you different judges. Also, I would like to see I and K's scores as well as V and M be given a bit hgher. I do think B and S and I and K have closed the gap considerably with P and B but the marks don't reflect that. I find P and B rather generic but the Russians defnitely have more versatility and something special factor.
Just watched this. Still not convinced by V&M's SD, I don't see a coherent concept here. Especially since their FD is so interesting and well thought out, the SD seems even more "meh" in comparison. I liked I&K's SD, but from what I've seen so far their FD is an absolute nightmare... And I'm agreeing with everybody saying that all the talented Kustarova teams need to get away from Kustarova ASAP. Perhaps then she'll rethink her approach to coaching and choreography and do things in a more productive fashion.
The Shibutanis' SD is a terrible fit for them. It worked for D/D because they were fierce and charismatic and had on point choreography, otherwise music like that can make a programme appear aimless, which this one did. They've rightly recognized that they need to branch out artistically, but copying...sorry, "being influenced by" the Duchesnays doesn't strike me as either original or a good idea. V&M's FD is great, as is D&W's SD, not quite convinced yet by the three other programmes coming out of Canton. And I do agree that none of the teams look quite as technically sharp as we're used to see from them, even this early in the season. I do think the lack of Shpilband is noticeable there. But these are probably the usual growing pains in situations like this. I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.
The Shibutanis' SD is a terrible fit for them. It worked for D/D because they were fierce and charismatic and had on point choreography, otherwise music like that can make a programme appear aimless, which this one did. They've rightly recognized that they need to branch out artistically, but copying...sorry, "being influenced by" the Duchesnays doesn't strike me as either original or a good idea. V&M's FD is great, as is D&W's SD, not quite convinced yet by the three other programmes coming out of Canton. And I do agree that none of the teams look quite as technically sharp as we're used to see from them, even this early in the season. I do think the lack of Shpilband is noticeable there. But these are probably the usual growing pains in situations like this. I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.
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- Nov 22, 2009
This is a sobering thought indeed and they would do well to consider all their options right now. But it's got to start with jettisoning this program. I can see this not even doing well enough Nationals to podium. I'm wondering if the best thing to do would be to pull out of their second GP and just focus on getting a new SD together and maybe see if they can deal with the coaching situation.
Again, consider this is the FIRST competition for the Shibs. You can dispute they should have started earlier or whatever (there's a discussion going on their fan thread). Also consider this program is all but 3-4 weeks old (consider the commentators didn't even realize they changed programs (I don't understand Italian but I heard "Mary Poppins" a lot on the YouTube video!)!
They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.
And as I said up thread, they are not great early-season (and it's early season for them) SD skaters.
Let's see how they do in the FD and take it from there.
ETA: Also consider that Isabelle and Paul were 27 and 29 when they did that program! Maia and Alex are only 18 and 21. So to expect them to be at the same level artistically is a bit much.
Ultimately the Shibs do have time on their side at this point to explore different styles and music. And yes not everything will be perfect, but with so many veteran couples at the top currently, this is actually good time to do it.
They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.
And as I said up thread, they are not great early-season (and it's early season for them) SD skaters.
Let's see how they do in the FD and take it from there.
ETA: Also consider that Isabelle and Paul were 27 and 29 when they did that program! Maia and Alex are only 18 and 21. So to expect them to be at the same level artistically is a bit much.
Ultimately the Shibs do have time on their side at this point to explore different styles and music. And yes not everything will be perfect, but with so many veteran couples at the top currently, this is actually good time to do it.
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- Joined
- Mar 16, 2005
I am sorry but there is nothing that can be salvaged from this program. It's complete and utter garbage. If I was the USFSA I would not send them to 4CC or Worlds. And I would hammer their PC's to hell until they get the message that BIG changes need to be made.
This year Zueva put all her energy into Carmen and all the other programs pretty much went by the wayside. Even Davis and White has that terrible FD.
Well I'm glad that USFSA doesn't trash skaters based on one performance of one SD. Good lord! I get that you don't like the program, but we haven't even seen the FD yet. Last I heard, there are TWO segments in a competition.
ETA: I saw D/W FD at Skate America live and I didn't think it was terrible. They will work on it throughout the year and even so, they performed it well. Like the Shibs' program, it was relatively new AND a switch from their earlier FD (Sinatra). Time, people!
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