2012 TEB Men's Short Program SP

[Mirunna]

Why no need. No it wasn't okay. That's why skating safe policy is a dangerous thing. Will move around ....

Then I take back what I said.(but I don't find anything wrong with Machida or Jeremy's scores to be honest). The thing is Mura would have been closer if his combo was clean. He got his 3T< and negative GOE. It's not Jeremy's fault that the quad guys didn't completely deliver. He went clean and this is how it turned out today. I don't see any merits in going for a quad which the skater doesn't master and almost always takes a fall(Verner, Amodio for example).

 

[Buttercup]

Newsflash: PCS are to some extent subjective, and sometimes skaters one dislikes will get what will seem like a too-high score. Deal with it or go watch a ski event.

 

[let`s talk]

Amodio too... And with no jump + one spin missing he still manage not to finish last. 13.85 pt for two falls... Thanks wonderful COP.
Under 6.0 this would never happen. Let's not talk about Amodio 7 in performance/execution for his worst skate ever. Or 7.4 for empty choreo.

:agree: :thumbsup:

 

[wallylutz]

I thought Amodio was a solid one among these skaters before it started.

I'm really happy that Jeremy stopped trying quad in SP and made this new jumping layout! It worked!:thumbsup:

It worked here because the field is relatively weak and none of them skated terribly well. The truth is, despite making only minor errors, his SP score is quite low compared to some other top men he is expected to compete against for World / Olympic podium. To me, this means this program is insufficient or to put it plainly, inadequate. Then again, Jeremy may just need a little more consistency to regain his confidence and command. Doing less is sometimes more in the long run.

 

[Art&Sport]

81. I think [Jeremy] had a problem on a spin? Anyway, it seems a bit low

Yes, I was expecting slightly higher: 82 or 83, but he'll take it. He could have had stronger spins, but again he pulled it out.

 

[let`s talk]

I don't see any merits in going for a quad which the skater doesn't master and almost always takes a fall(Verner, Amodio for example).

... or Evan. We have already been there, in a quadless era of Vancouver.

 

[LRK]

You could look at the handle and guess who would drag PC into a thread where he is not even competing...the best thing is just to scroll down and ignore.

Who? Where? I haven't seen anybody drag "PC" - I presume you mean "Patrick Chan"? - into the discussion -well, unless you just did. I've gone back and looked, and really... I can't find anything...

 

[Bluebonnet]

To me, this means this program is insufficient or to put it plainly, inadequate. Then again, Jeremy may just need a little more consistency to regain his confidence and command. Doing less is sometimes more in the long run.

Jeremy's both programs this year are inadequate in choreography, IMO, and not up to his usual standard. So this no fall SP is quite good from him. I'm glad he didn't continue to change his quad jumping entry and try a quad in SP because he is just not able to have a quad in SP.

Newsflash: PCS are to some extent subjective, and sometimes skaters one dislikes will get what will seem like a too-high score. Deal with it or go watch a ski event.

What a double standard!

 

[herios]

Why no need. No it wasn't okay. That's why skating safe policy is a dangerous thing. Will move around ....

I disagree. Until the quad is a mandatory element, nothing is wrong with a quadless winner. I prefer a winner who skates clean as opposed to a guy who wins after he wiped out the ice with his rear end following his quad attempt and defeating skaters who put out a clean program.
What is wrong IMO to give too much credit for an unsuccessful quad attempt.

 

[LRK]

The thing, though, is... Jeremy might not have needed the quad in the SP here - however he will need it later to be competitive. And as far as I've seen, the quad is not something you can take out and put in at will. If you want it to be reasonably consitent. And it's such a hard element, that, to put it in is a big deal, and liable to make the skater nervous... I think you see where I'm going with this? Is it a good thing for Jeremy to have something like that, later, to make him EXTRA nervous... ?

 

[Mrs. P]

It worked here because the field is relatively weak and none of them skated terribly well. The truth is, despite making only minor errors, his SP score is quite low compared to some other top men he is expected to compete against for World / Olympic podium. To me, this means this program is insufficient or to put it plainly, inadequate. Then again, Jeremy may just need a little more consistency to regain his confidence and command. Doing less is sometimes more in the long run.

SP Scores 75+ so far this season
Yuzuru Hanyu 95.07 (51.71; 43.36) (SA)
Javier Fernandez 85.87 (46.41; 39.46) (SC)
Patrick Chan 85.44 (41.62; 43.82) (COR)
Takahito Kozuka 85.32 (45.57;39.75) (SA)
Daisuke Takahashi 84.79 (41.90; 42.89) (COC)
Tatsuki Machida 83.78 (44.16; 39.32) (COC)
Patrick Chan 82.52 (39.81;42.71) (SC)
Nobunari Oda 82.14 (44.61; 37.53) (SC)
--------------------------median
Jeremy Abbott 81.18 (40.35; 40.83) (TEB)
Jeremy Abbott 77.71 (37.81; 40.90) (SA)
Konstantin Menshov 76.73 (42.51; 34.22) (COR)
Takahiko Kozuka 76.34 (37.99; 38.35) (COR)
Tatsuki Macida 75.78 (38.65; 37.13)(SA)
Takahito Mura 76.65 (41.15; 35.50) TEB
Brian Joubert 75.46 (38.73; 36.73)
Denis Ten 75.26 (40.22; 36.04) (SC)


TES:
Yuzuru Hanyu 51.71 (SA)
Javier Fernandez 46.41 (SC)
Takahito Kozuka 45.57 (SA)
Nobunari Oda 44.61 (SC)
Tatsuki Machida 44.16 (COC)
Konstantin Menshov 42.81 (COR)
Daisuke Takahashi 41.90 (COC)
Patrick Chan 41.62 (COR)
--------------------------median
Takahito Mura 41.15 (TEB)
Jeremy Abbott 40.35 (TEB)
Denis Ten 40.22 (SC)
Patrick Chan 39.81 (SC)
Brian Joubert 38.73(TEB)
Tatsuki Machida 38.65 (SA)
Takahiko Kozuka 37.99 (COR)
Jeremy Abbott 37.81 (SA)

PCS
Patrick Chan 43.82 (COR)
Yuzuru Hanyu 43.36 (SA)
Daisuke Takahashi 42.89 (COC)
Patrick Chan 42.71 (SC)
Jeremy Abbott 40.90 (SA)
Jeremy Abbott 40.83 (TEB)
Takahito Kozuka 39.75 (SA)
Javier Fernandez 39.46 (SC)
------------------------------ median
Tatsuki Machida 39.32 (COC)
Takahiko Kozuka 38.35 (COR)
Nobunari Oda 37.53 (SC)
Tatsuki Macida 37.13 (SA)
Brian Joubert 36.73 (TEB)
Denis Ten 36.04 (SC)
Takahito Mura 35.50 (TEB)
Konstantin Menshov 34.22 (COR)

Just thought some data was some good food for thought. So yes, Jeremy, even with strong PCS, is actually below the median as far as top scores among all the men competing so far on the GP.

 

[Art&Sport]

It worked here because the field is relatively weak and none of them skated terribly well. The truth is, despite making only minor errors, his SP score is quite low compared to some other top men he is expected to compete against for World / Olympic podium. To me, this means this program is insufficient or to put it plainly, inadequate. Then again, Jeremy may just need a little more consistency to regain his confidence and command. Doing less is sometimes more in the long run.

I disagree wallylutz, that Jeremy's program "is inadequate." It's a solid program, but he did have a bit of traveling and slowness on some of his spins (I think from nerves). Other than that, the speed and choreography, as well as the interpretation is excellent. It's one of the better sps this season, IMO. Sure if Hanyu, Fernandez, Kozuka, Chan and Dai perform all their jumps well, they are certain to be scored higher if Jeremy doesn't include a quad in his sp, but I think Jeremy's sp and especially his gorgeous fp are very competitive with these guys. I don't think Dai has stellar programs choreographically this season, unfortunately. IMO, it will come down to Jeremy performing technically well along with showing off his great artistry. Jeremy won't have enough points even should he win gold here to make it to GPF. So, I hope he does cop the gold here and goes home in a strong frame of mind to do great things at Nationals and Worlds (fingers-crossed he makes the World team).

If Chan does everything well, he has very competitive programs artistically this season, so that will likely keep Chan on the top at GPF and possibly Worlds, unless Fernandez continues to build his presentation skills, stays strong on technique and pulls another fast one against Chan at GPF. Japan Nationals will be a slugfest, but I'm thinking Hanyu, Kozuka and Dai might prevail. I think Hanyu is loved by ISU judges, but he still needs to build maturity and endurance. Kozuka is a strong skater, but I don't think he's a better skater than Jeremy Abbott (despite SA results). Dai doesn't have absolutely great programs this season, and even when he had them last season, the judges were reluctant to reward Dai, plus Dai has shown some vulnerability technically in his last GP. So, once again, I think Jeremy's sp is competitive with the top guys (maybe some think it's a weak program because the music and stylistic approach are not classical, but that shouldn't be the determining factor, IMO). Of course, Jeremy doesn't always get the reputation points because he needs to consistently prove he can do his best under pressure, and he needs a more consistent quad.

 

[wallylutz]

Just thought some data was some good food for thought. So yes, Jeremy, even with strong PCS, is actually below the median as far as top scores among all the men competing so far on the GP.

Thanks for the hard work and a good job in showing us the numbers. Always appreciate when you put the stats in perspective.

 

[Kunstrijdster]

I prefer a winner who skates clean as opposed to a guy who wins after he wiped out the ice with his rear end following his quad attempt and defeating skaters who put out a clean program.
What is wrong IMO to give too much credit for an unsuccessful quad attempt.

^This. What they should have done is rewarding well executed quads more instead of lowering the penality on failed quads. I don't wanna see skaters pick up lots of base value on rotated falls. I like good quads but I also like quality skating. I hope Jeremy pulls of a win here, with or without quad.

 

[let`s talk]

TES:
Takahito Mura 38.73 (TEB)

It's Brian's TES. Mura got 41.15.

 

[wallylutz]

I disagree wallylutz, that Jeremy's program "is inadequate." It's a solid program, but he did have a bit of traveling and slowness on some of his spins (I think from nerves). Other than that, the speed and choreography, as well as the interpretation is excellent. It's one of the better sps this season, IMO. Sure if Hanyu, Fernandez, Kozuka, Chan and Dai perform all their jumps well, they are certain to be scored higher if Jeremy doesn't include a quad in his sp, but I think Jeremy's sp and especially his gorgeous fp are very competitive with these guys. I don't think Dai has stellar programs choreographically this season, unfortunately. IMO, it will come down to Jeremy performing technically well along with showing off his great artistry. Jeremy won't have enough points even should he win gold here to make it to GPF. So, I hope he does cop the gold here and goes home in a strong frame of mind to do great things at Nationals and Worlds (fingers-crossed he makes the World team).

If Chan does everything well, he has very competitive programs artistically this season, so that will likely keep Chan on the top at GPF and possibly Worlds, unless Fernandez continues to build his presentation skills, stays strong on technique and pulls another fast one against Chan at GPF. Japan Nationals will be a slugfest, but I'm thinking Hanyu, Kozuka and Dai might prevail. I think Hanyu is loved by ISU judges, but he still needs to build maturity and endurance. Kozuka is a strong skater, but I don't think he's a better skater than Jeremy Abbott (despite SA results). Dai doesn't have absolutely great programs this season, and even when he had them last season, the judges were reluctant to reward Dai, plus Dai has shown some vulnerability technically in his last GP. So, once again, I think Jeremy's sp is competitive with the top guys (maybe some think it's a weak program because the music and stylistic approach are not classical, but that shouldn't be the determining factor, IMO). Of course, Jeremy doesn't always get the reputation points because he needs to consistently prove he can do his best under pressure, and he needs a more consistent quad.

Well said, you made some very valid points. Let me clarify my comments re: Jeremy. When I said inadequate, I am speaking strictly regarding the TES, not the PCS. The men have reached a stage where a quadless SP is unlikely going to be competitive for the foreseable future. In that sense, the technical design of such SP is inadequate. I don't think Jeremy would be satisfied this season unless he can win US Nationals and make at least Top 5 in the Worlds, if not a world podium finish. To do that, I believe he will need his Quad in the SP. I don't see him beating the Japanese and other European challengers without it.

Ironically, there is a chance that Daisuke Takahashi may not even make the Japanese world team this year. If that happens, I think many people would be very upset.

 

[Mao88]

MEN'S SHORT PROGRAM - VIDEOS & RESULT

1. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) - 81.18 Short Program
2. Takahito MURA (JPN) - 76.65
3. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) - 75.46 Short Program
4. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL) - 68.90
5. Jinlin GUAN (CHN) - 65.77
6. Nan SONG (CHN) - 65.75
7. Florent AMODIO (FRA) - 60.13 Short Program
8. Chafik BESSEGHIER (FRA) - 58.28
9. Tomas VERNER (CZE) - 57.40 Short Program

 

[Art&Sport]

...

Just thought some data was some good food for thought. So yes, Jeremy, even with strong PCS, is actually below the median as far as top scores among all the men competing so far on the GP.

Thanks for the breakdown, but Jeremy is not below the median on PCS. Anyway, despite what the numbers say, Jeremy is a way better overall skater IMHO than Mura, Machida, Menshov, Amodio, and Oda (the main thing Oda has going for him is his jumping ability and he often gets way over-scored on PCS by the judges IMO). And, Jeremy is highly competitive with the rest of the top guys, including Fernandez, Chan, Kozuka, Hanyu, and Dai (who doesn't have great programs this season).

The huge problem for Jeremy is that he doesn't get reputation points because he has to consistently prove he can stand up technically under pressure, and he needs his quad to be consistent. As a result, Jeremy is not seen as being as strong a jumper as Fernandez, Chan, Hanyu and even Dai (I don't think Kozuka is as strong jump-wise as the other four guys but he's relatively consistent and he does have great ability, plus improved programs this season). I don't think that Kozuka is artistically as strong as Jeremy though, and neither is Fernandez. Chan is improving his already good artistry this season. Hanyu is precocious technically and artistically, but lacks maturity and endurance. Dai doesn't have great programs this season and he's shown vulnerability technically. Jeremy isn't probably seen to be as strong a jumper as these guys technically. However, he actually is a strong jumper! He just needs to prove that consistently under pressure, and master the quad. None of the top guys are consistently solid as a rock, but they have more consistent quads and more rep with the judges than Jeremy.

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks for the breakdown, but Jeremy is not below the median on PCS. Anyway, despite what the numbers say, Jeremy is a way better overall skater IMHO than Mura, Machida, Menshov, Amodio, and Oda (the main thing Oda has going for him is his jumping ability and he often gets way over-scored on PCS by the judges IMO). And, Jeremy is highly competitive with the rest of the top guys, including Fernandez, Chan, Kozuka, Hanyu, and Dai (who doesn't have great programs this season).

The huge problem for Jeremy is that he doesn't get reputation points because he has to consistently prove he can stand up technically under pressure, and he needs his quad to be consistent. As a result, Jeremy is not seen as being as strong a jumper as Fernandez, Chan, Hanyu and even Dai (I don't think Kozuka is as strong jump-wise as the other four guys but he's relatively consistent and he does have great ability, plus improved programs this season). I don't think that Kozuka is artistically as strong as Jeremy though, and neither is Fernandez. Chan is improving his already good artistry this season. Hanyu is precocious technically and artistically, but lacks maturity and endurance. Dai doesn't have great programs this season and he's shown vulnerability technically. Jeremy isn't probably seen to be as strong a jumper as these guys technically. However, he actually is a strong jumper! He just needs to prove that consistently under pressure, and master the quad. None of the top guys are consistently solid as a rock, but they have more consistent quads and more rep with the judges than Jeremy.

Here's what I said after my data:

So yes, Jeremy, even with strong PCS, is actually below the median as far as top scores among all the men competing so far on the GP.

He's not below the median on PCS at all. In fact, he's ranked fourth among ALL the skaters (behind Yuzuru, Daisuke and Patrick). So the judges agree with you that Jeremy has better artistry than Fernandez or Kozuka. But the fact is that Jeremy's low TES keeps his OVERALL score below the median.

Nobody is disputing his abilities on the PCS side, but for now, he's not doing enough on the TES side to contend with the top men at the moment.

 

[Mrs. P]

It's Brian's TES. Mura got 41.15.

Corrected. Didn't really change his standing though.