2013 Japanese Nationals Ladies

[babayaga]

First of all, congrats to Mao for her good performance!

Seriously. How many times do we have to hear that Mao "only" landed 3, or 4, or 5 clean triples after some great performances like GPF or this one? Some people ignore every other positive aspect of her skating, even when she gets some of the highest base values in competitions. Why does she always receive so much criticism when she's not absolutely perfect? You can bet that even if she is absolutely perfect, many people here will come and say she can't jump, she had ur, was overscored and so on...

When she lands 5 triples and has 2 mistakes, ok, she was not good, but some posters say she landed 2 clean triples and was atrocious. When she lands 5 triples and has 1 mistake, people say she skated like it was 1982, even if most skaters were even worse. When she lands 6 triples, but has 2 <, she only landed 4 triples. When she lands 6 triples, but has two mistakes, she only landed 4 clean triples. ***?? Clean triples is the only thing that matters in figure skating?

Not to mention some sick posters who post criticism and offenses to Mao like, 10 times every day. This is tiresome.

Thank you, this discussion is getting ridiculous. And these are some of the same people who were defending Patrick Chan and talked about "this is figure skating", not "figure jumping", and now all of the sudden all that matters is the number of "clean triples" and only clean triples. It was a good skate with SIX triples and two small mistakes and it deserved a big score. Mao's PCS were even almost the same she gets at international competitions, unlike 76 that Karolina got at her nationals. The reaction here is sick.

 

[aftertherain]

Thank you, this discussion is getting ridiculous. And these are some of the same people who were defending Patrick Chan and talked about "this is figure skating", not "figure jumping", and now all of the sudden all that matters is the number of "clean triples" and only clean triples. It was a good skate with SIX triples and two small mistakes and it deserved a big score. Mao's PCS were even almost the same she gets at international competitions, unlike 76 that Karolina got at her nationals. The reaction here is sick.

No need to drag PChiddy and Carolina Kostner into this conversation to make it even more "sick". Mao, Patrick, and Carolina are champions in their respective national championships (past and present) in their own rights, regardless of what their personal opinions about skating may be.

I'm glad to see that Akiko is definitely going to Worlds. I hope all of the entries perform well at both Worlds (Jr/Sr) and 4CC!

 

[skatel80]

Wow Mao, that was beautiful! I absolutely love her swan program and thought she skated brilliantly today, I love the way she moves so effortlessly over the ice, really impressed by Satoko getting a medal , good for her great skating by alot of the younger ladies , Hongo , Oba, Kato in the free. all of the Japanese skaters have such lovely knee bend in their skating

 

[babayaga]

No need to drag PChiddy and Carolina Kostner into this conversation to make it even more "sick". Mao, Patrick, and Carolina are champions in their respective national championships (past and present) in their own rights, regardless of what their personal opinions about skating may be.

I'm glad to see that Akiko is definitely going to Worlds. I hope all of the entries perform well at both Worlds (Jr/Sr) and 4CC!

Well, I actually have nothing against Karolina's score - after all nationals are always like that. I guess the difference in people's reaction is what I don't get. When Akiko scores 65 and is in first with 3T-2T and 3F - it's an embarrassment to the sport they say. When Karolina scores over 70 with 3T-2T and 3Loop - it's understandable because it's nationals. OK then. :sarcasm:

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Seriously. How many times do we have to hear that Mao "only" landed 3, or 4, or 5 clean triples after some great performances like GPF or this one? Some people ignore every other positive aspect of her skating, even when she gets some of the highest base values in competitions. Why does she always receive so much criticism when she's not absolutely perfect? You can bet that even if she is absolutely perfect, many people here will come and say she can't jump, she had ur, was overscored and so on...

When she lands 5 triples and has 2 mistakes, ok, she was not good, but some posters say she landed 2 clean triples and was atrocious. When she lands 5 triples and has 1 mistake, people say she skated like it was 1982, even if most skaters were even worse. When she lands 6 triples, but has 2 <, she only landed 4 triples. When she lands 6 triples, but has two mistakes, she only landed 4 clean triples. ***?? Clean triples is the only thing that matters in figure skating?

Not to mention some sick posters who post criticism and offenses to Mao like, 10 times every day. This is tiresome.

To be "fair" - this happens to a lot of skaters. Carolina or Kiira are getting a lot of "critisism" too. I love Adelina and I don't get how some people can talk about her the way they do. For Patrick you have poeple making fun of his falls, posting pictures or whatever (I often disagree with his scores myself, but I still don't like the personal part). Hanyu seems to be heading the same way - he was all-beloved last year, now the flatation and conspiracy stuff is coming up. That might get really ugly in the future. It seems to be you're either underscored or hated - but I'm kind of sure some skaters could even manage both.
But of course I agree with what you wrote. Mao has been getting the heat this season. There has been a lot of stupid judging and it's rather obvious this system still needs changes and tweaks. But that's no reason for an outcry like that. Glad someone said it :thumbsup:

 

[aftertherain]

Well, I actually have nothing against Karolina's score - after all nationals are always like that. I guess the difference in people's reaction is what I don't get. When Akiko scores 65 and is in first with 3T-2T and 3F - it's an embarrassment to the sport they say. When Karolina scores over 70 with 3T-2T and 3Loop - it's understandable because it's nationals. OK then. :sarcasm:

That not true. Criticisms like that are abundant in this board about all kinds of skaters. Some have stated that Carolina should have been scored much lower for what she did and things like that.

Regarding the "difference in people's reaction", were these posts from the same person -or- different posts from different people? If it's the latter, then you should just save yourself the headache. It's bad science to compare posts from different posters. All that proves that that individual fans have differing opinions about individual skaters, which we all already know. If it is the former, then you have every right to be puzzled.

Personally, I am happy at the way both Carolina and Akiko skated their short programs at their Nationals.

 

[babayaga]

That not true. Criticisms like that are abundant in this board about all kinds of skaters. Some have stated that Carolina should have been scored much lower for what she did and things like that.

Regarding the "difference in people's reaction", were these posts from the same person -or- different posts from different people? If it's the latter, then you should just save yourself the headache. It's bad science to compare posts from different posters. All that proves that that individual fans have differing opinions about individual skaters, which we all already know. If it is the former, then you have every right to be puzzled.

Personally, I am happy at the way both Carolina and Akiko skated their short programs at their Nationals.

I guess it's a difference in the overall tone of the discussion. People stated that Carolina should probably have been scored lower, but it was all within reasonable and respectful boundaries, her performance wasn't called "atrocious" several times per page for example. I shouldn't be comparing the two threads though, you are right about that. And the reason I brought up Patrick in my original post is exactly because I think there are the same people who were defending his scores for performances filled with jump errors because he is so good in everything else and who are now counting "clean triples" for Asada.

I too, love Caro's short, just magnificent, love both Mao and Akiko, and Patrick won me over with his skating this season. Sorry for bringing them up in this mess.

 

[Leonardo]

I guess it's a difference the in overall tone of the discussion. People stated that Carolina should probably have been scored lower, but it was all within reasonable and respectful boundaries, her performance wasn't called "atrocious" several times per page for example. I shouldn't be comparing the two threads though, you are right about that. And the reason I brought up Patrick in my original post is exactly because I think there are the same people who were defending his scores for performances filled with jump errors because he is so good in everything else and who are now counting "clean triples" for Asada.

I too, love Caro's short, just magnificent, love both Mao and Akiko, and Patrick won me over with his skating this season. Sorry for bringing them up in this mess.

I totally agree with everything you just said.

 

[sather]

How come you find her and Mao's similar added TES interesting?

hmm... I mean... technical wise I felt Mao's LP less impressive so I had to look up the protocol and it clearly showed this podium is about pcs. For Mao, it would mean she definitely should work on her jump quality in Worlds if she wants the top of the podium since she doesn't have her chance when she receives similar TES with skaters at the level of Kanako.

BTW I hope that I'm not adding another controversy on this thread because there's already plenty

 

[Nadia01]

Who said anything about the SP? I was talking about the LP.

Then why did you quote my protocols to short?

There is something fundamentally wrong with ladies skating right now and we saw a glimpse of it during the SP - the winner was someone who landed a Triple Toe + Double Toe combo and the 2nd place finisher merely did a single loop and one Triple, a Flip. Both skaters scored 60+ for such performance. Heck, in 1982, ladies could do better than that, if CoP was implemented back then.

Fastforward to the LP, Mao Asada eventually won the LP with 4 clean triples, not counting the Lutz because it received overall negative GOE and most likely a wrong edge take off. So a lady who merely landed 4 clean Triples not only won but with a score of 130+? Whereas the men went the complete different direction, the ladies are not stagnant, they are regressing and downright depressing to watch. For this sport to grow, the ladies cannot afford to produce champions who can be beaten by women 3 generations before them, even prior to the time of Midori Ito, that's just insane to think about in 2012.

The sad truth is, this Japanese Nationals is merely a reflection of the ill in ladies skating given the same phenomenon is observed elsewhere as well.

I pray that this situation will change soon.

True, and yes you're right that it's not just Mao.

Also it is disappointing that women's side is regressing technically. If all I wanted to see was pretty spins and spirals, I'd watch ice shows, not competitive programs, which require decent jumps.

I don't understand how in the world Mao could get to this point. She used to jump so well, and she had nice enough SS and so on that it was probably unthinkable back then that she'd struggle like this with jumps (and this without attempting 3As!).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Satoko Miyahara was massively overscored and should have been 6th place at best. Pretty much ALL of her jumps were underrotated; in the LP I would have called both Lutzes, the Flip, and the Salchow as <, in addition to the second Toeloop being << and the Loop obviously being << (the only call she actually received). Look at how she spins on her toepick during takeoffs...she isn't getting enough rotation in the air and the tech panel didn't punish all of this crazy pre-rotation. Her jumps aren't just small, a la Lipinski, they are badly cheated. In the SP I would have called her combo as 3Lutz< + 3Toe<<, although I'd give her the benefit of the doubt on the Flip (only because of the footage available to me; that jump likely deserved < too).

 

[Nadia01]

Satoko Miyahara was massively overscored and should have been 6th place at best. Pretty much ALL of her jumps were underrotated; in the LP I would have called both Lutzes, the Flip, and the Salchow as <, in addition to the second Toeloop being << and the Loop obviously being << (the only call she actually received). Look at how she spins on her toepick during takeoffs...she isn't getting enough rotation in the air and the tech panel didn't punish all of this crazy pre-rotation. Her jumps aren't just small, a la Lipinski, they are badly cheated. In the SP I would have called her combo as 3Lutz< + 3Toe<<, although I'd give her the benefit of the doubt on the Flip (only because of the footage available to me; that jump likely deserved < too).

Interesting that you mention it BoP b/c I too thought her jumps looked very small, and that she was able to rotate fast b/c she was so small and juniorish right now. I'm not sure if she'll be able to survive puberty/ growth spurt.

 

[aftertherain]

Then why did you quote my protocols to short?

Hey, hey. Everyone just calm down. No need to get defensive on such a small matter.

---

Just watched Satoko's LP. I reaffirm my earlier statement. She's so tiny! I hope she can improve her technical ability (i.e. higher and bigger jumps) which such ambitious jump contents. I do hope she can before the puberty monster gets to her.

 

[hurrah]

Just had the opportunity to watch some of the performances. Firstly, congratulation to Mao for her 6th Nationals title. She skated really well today! I thought her step sequence was really, really wonderful. You can tell she is really making sure to do it on very deep edges. As for her jumps, well, she did the salchow!! And I guess she is still tweaking her edge jumps and they weren't perfect, but she is getting better and better. Secondly, I'm very happy for Kanako's successes. It seems like she is trying to clean up her jump technique issues. She still has a truckload of problems, but they didn't seem to traslate into under-rotations or failed jumps, and she has had a really difficult season, so very happy for her. And I am feeling very sorry that Akiko did not do too well this time, but hey, it didn't affect her chances of going to Worlds, so that's good. I felt that Akiko may also have started to change her jump technique as well and that's why she had the problems she did. And that then makes her mistakes necessary because as of now, Akiko's jumps are neither pretty nor spectacular, but just very average. I look forward to 4CC and Worlds!

 

[Blades of Passion]

I was also happy to see Kanako deliver a strong LP, but I really hope she starts performing more again, like she did at Skate Canada. No doubt the many wrongful calls she has received on her jumps is making her focus more than she needs to on the tech elements. I want to see her performance ability at the forefront and I want her to be judged fairly. It's bad enough that she already took her 3Toe-3Toe combo out of the LP because of receiving <, even though she doesn't ever < on that combo.

 

[let`s talk]

she is very harshly critized in this forum. I think people expect a lot from Mao.

I noticed that she was way overcritized compared to others long time ago. And I couldn't come up with any reasonable explanation besides that you gave here- high expectations, which is actually a compliment, somehow. Still it doesn't justify all the nastiness towards here.

 

[Ilvskating]

Wow, Mao was amazing! The step sequence is the bet ever, and I love to see the joy comes back to Mao's face! Can't wait for World! Based on the pace, she could be clean withe 7 triples at World, possibly with 3A somewhere, or at least in Sochi.
congratulations.

 

[Mirunna]

True, and yes you're right that it's not just Mao.

Also it is disappointing that women's side is regressing technically. If all I wanted to see was pretty spins and spirals, I'd watch ice shows, not competitive programs, which require decent jumps.

I don't understand how in the world Mao could get to this point. She used to jump so well, and she had nice enough SS and so on that it was probably unthinkable back then that she'd struggle like this with jumps (and this without attempting 3As!).

Oh but it is all about Mao. For example, I never once saw anyone counting Ashley's triples for instance, because she also has an edge call which means she "only" landed 5 clean triples and scored very well, close to 130, and this in an ISU competition(just to be clear, I think Ashley skated very well). But hey, 5 clean triples is OK, 4 clean triples is atrocious, ladies figure skating is a mess and Mao is overscored. If I recall correctly even Yuna won worlds with "only" 5 clean triples in the LP(and I am not even counting that she got an "!" on her combo because that was absurd so according to this logic, it was a mediocre performance. Not to mention an invalid spin. And yet it wasn't, it was a great performance which got a huge standing ovation.
BTW, spins and spirals are technical elements but somehow this rule doesn't apply to Mao on this forum, all that matters is how many triples did she land. Oh sorry, how many clean triples, because for her, a 2 footed jump or a 3Lz with an edge should not count at all. I am sick and tired, fine, we got your point, you made clear on every single topic about Mao(or not even about her), she can't jump and is the reason why ladies skating is declining. We get it. If it's so bad I don't get why do you even bother watching to be honest.

 

[Bartek]

If we are to use this stupid logic that some users do while evalutaing ladies' performances most of 6.0 glorious, memorable skates would contain about 4 triples and that is including Kwan's winning programs. E.g. in famous SOTBS we would discount both triple lutzes due to edge calls and triple flip and triple toeloop were definitely underrotated. She may have been given the benefit of the doubt on the second lutz and loop in terms of roatation. That would leave Michelle with only 2 "clean" triples if I remember correctly which doesn't diminish the overall performance's other qualities.

I am also sick and tired of the posters who every single time when Mao skates complain about the number of her "clean" triples. It's been normal for quite some time that most of the ladies have problems with either flutzing or lipping and in fact most of them win with only 3 or 4 clean triple, according to your logic of course.

Now, how many "clean" triples is satisfactory to you in order not to claim that the winning performance was completely atrocious? 5? Ok, then show me 5 winning performances from CoP era that fullfil your requirements. I wish you good luck as you will likely find out that only Rochette, Ando and arguably Slutskaya could be considered as not atrocious. Kim's winning performances had usually 4 "clean" triples according to your logic since she relied on her double axels and her flips regularly got edge calls.

Another point, Mao's jumps ARE decent to say the least. Besides, figure skating is not only about jumps. If we are to focus only on the technical part it also includes spins, steps and spirals. Mao excels in those categories with the highest levels and high GoE's on all of them. A lot of ladies couldn't go through her footwork effortlessly and flawlessly. There is also something called Program Components Score in which case Mao certainly diserves 8's.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Now, how many "clean" triples is satisfactory to you in order not to claim that the winning performance was completely atrocious? 5? Ok, then show me 5 winning performances from CoP era that fullfil your requirements. I wish you good luck as you will likely find out that only Rochette, Ando and arguably Slutskaya could be considered as not atrocious. Kim's winning performances had usually 4 "clean" triples according to your logic since she relied on her double axels and her flips regularly got edge calls.

And Ando never really got a lot of love either. She had fully-rotated, technically good lutzes, salchows, loops and toe-loops and was really consistent with those - but because she didn't have a 3/3 many people didn't consider her good enough either.
I really wonder where those people get their expactations from. (Although Nadia01 for example just seems to like to argue against Mao. You can't say anything helpful in those cases, I guess).