2013 Canadian Nats Senior Men LP

[pangtongfan]

well in defence of nationals scoring (at least this time), reynolds did basically skate a clean program with 3 quads... one of which was late in the program.

Doesnt matter, he would still never ever score above 170 in front of an international panel, and would be lucky to break 160. Wouldnt get the GOE, PCS, spin levels, anything besides the jump difficulty needed. Chan also would score below 170 in front of an international panel for that skate.

 

[wallylutz]

Some judges was certainly throwing out +3 GOE and 8.5-9 PCS like freebies at national events, but not internationally. Why the discrepancy?

Actually, this is not correct. There are plenty of outlier scores at international events and ISU Championships. Certainly, not all the judges at the Canadian Championships tonight was throwing out +3 GOE or 9 for PCS like free candies. Just because there were a few examples of those really is not that different to any given international competition where there are outliers within any judging panel. Say the average GOE is +1 but we can see times to times that some judges will give +3 while others -2 for that overall +1 score. Same thing for PCS, there are always outliers at any given competition. What is clear is that the high scores given out tonight were strictly reserved for the top 2 skaters. The 3rd place finisher and lower received no such love. If there is any inflation, they could have well very inflated Rogozine's scores but that didn't happen.

At international competitions, some judging panels are more lenient than others. That is why it is hard to compare scores between different competitions. Notable examples include GPF and Olympics where some would get the impression that judges are especially lenient, just like what you described : +3 GOE all over the place and high PCS scores and those are international events.

Rather, I think what's at work here is the human perceptions and some of the myths that we have long assumed as facts that are influencing our perceptions. Scoring at some national events have, in the past, been more strict than at international events. Other times, they seemed like coronation. I think the answer is it depends. Different panel, different leniency and the timing and circumstances / time all play a role. It would however be false to simply assume national events carries an automatic inflation. Virtue/Moir, the reigning Olympic and World Champions, had their lowest scores last season at their nationals. Likewise, Patrick Chan had his highest season scores at his Nationals because he also happened to peak there with his best skates, which were totally flawless. Yet, many would still call that an inflation ignoring that he did in fact skate his best there.

 

[jjane45]

Thanks wallylutz for your kind explanation and everyone for the response. I haven't followed Canadian nationals closely, just observed they are perceived to be one of the most inflated events - with more than usual outliers, possibly.

 

[Butterscotch17]

I really hope Elladje Balde gets sents to 4CC! I like his style, and I am well on my way to becoming a devoted fan Too bad he didn't make the World team, but congrats to the three medalists!

 

[Becki]

any videos? I really want to watch Reynold's FS...

 

[wallylutz]

Thanks wallylutz for your kind explanation and everyone for the response. I haven't followed Canadian nationals closely, just observed they are perceived to be one of the most inflated events - with more than usual outliers, possibly.

There is really no substance to such claim just because one or few posters decide to spread such claims. Mao Asada scored a 130+ LP at the most recent Japanese Nationals with only 3 clean Triple jumps in her Free Skate. Does that mean Japanese Nationals is the king of all national inflation? See, it's dangerous to quote things out of context like this.

 

[Skater Boy]

Good for Reynolds. Chan looks in trouble; he watered down his routine - what happened to the triple lutz loop triple salchow. I think he might not even make the podium at this rate.

 

[wallylutz]

Good for Reynolds. Chan looks in trouble; he watered down his routine - what happened to the triple lutz loop triple salchow. I think he might not even make the podium at this rate.

That combo was switched and now attached to his Triple Flip in lieu of the 2nd Triple Lutz, a sensible move given that his Triple Flip is more consistent and better executed than his Triple Lutz. But due to the uncharacteristic fall on the 3F, he was unable to complete the combo as planned so he didn't actually water down his routine. Instead, the fall killed that planned combo.

 

[Moment]

Patrick's La bohème is gorgeous, one of my favorite programs of the season and I am really anticipating a near-clean performance of it. I'm really sad it didn't happen at the nationals, the last chance is the Worlds since he isn't competing at the 4CC.

 

[Buttercup]

Here are the facts, Kevin did some fairly amazing elements in his skate tonight :

4S, 4T, 3A+3T, 4T+3T (+2nd half bonus), 3F+3Lo (+2nd half bonus)

This kind of technical content is simply unmatched in the world at this time. I cannot recall the last time a man had 3 Quads in his LP plus two other 3/3, including a 3A and combo involving a 3Lo. Perhaps the poster who had a laugh at Reynolds' score could enlighten us of another man who had, in the past, successfully completed the above mentioned jumps within the same LP?

Well, Javier Fernandez didn't do the exact same content at the GPF, but I don't believe his free skate there was inferior in terms of technical content. And he's a better skater than Reynolds.

That said, it is a very impressive performance from Kevin, so congratulations to him.

 

[dorispulaski]

I thought the mark should have been much closer. I would have given the edge to Kevin Reynolds.

Welcome to Golden Skate, Jade!

I'm hoping both Kevin's long & his short appear on either tsn.ca or youtube soon! Good for him!

Most Nationals inflate scores, IMO. Canadian Nationals are no different than any other Nationals.

 

[herios]

Well, Javier Fernandez didn't do the exact same content at the GPF, but I don't believe his free skate there was inferior in terms of technical content. And he's a better skater than Reynolds.

That said, it is a very impressive performance from Kevin, so congratulations to him.

Actually Wallylutz didn't include all KR jumps in that message. He did more than that and yes, from a technical point of view it was the strongest i have seen in the whole season. It was very impressive. And keep in mind, I am not a fan!
By the way, 3F/3L is an extremely difficult and rare combination

 

[Ziggy]

Hmm another substandard (again for his - highest - standards) performance from Patrick Chan. No triple axel, only two combos (and no three jump combo).

Incredible technical content from Reynolds, on the other hand!

I wonder how Skate Canada is going to play this one now. They are probably pissed off that Rogozine beat Balde (in both programs too ) but they still could send Reynolds, Rogozine and Balde to 4CC and say that the third Worlds spot will go to whoever places higher in Sapporo. Balde doesn't have the Worlds minimum score yet but he could earn it there.

Of course that assumes Chan declines 4CC.

 

[prettykeys]

By the way, 3F/3L is an extremely difficult and rare combination

It's not that bad...quite a few men and women have done it. But, that late in a free skate? I have yet to see. I am looking forward to YouTube vids of Reynolds' performance!

 

[Ziggy]

It's not that bad...quite a few men and women have done it. But, that late in a free skate? I have yet to see. I am looking forward to YouTube vids of Reynolds' performance!

I can't think of anyone at the moment. I'm sure somebody's done it but only a few skaters IIRC.

 

[let`s talk]

By the way, 3F/3L is an extremely difficult and rare combination

Eh? What are you talking about? In the time when guys were busier with landing stuff with quad/3A combo/solo, this 3F-3Lo together with a more difficult combo 3Lu-3Lo were fun for Ladies, even Junior Ladies. A bunch of them landed those combos here and there. And even now some perform it. Shelepen comes to mind, as well as Slutskaya, Sotnikova, Ando, Asada. I might have forgotten someone. You see- all girls. I am sure there are boys too. But I have to agree that recently skateras don't bother to use 3Lo as a second jump because risk and difficulty is not rewarded as it should be. There's a thread about that in the Edge.

 

[Niki2012]

It does not look to me that Reynold’s score was inflated. He got three successful quad including 4-3 in latter half of the program. He got one edge error but did not fall, and he landed successful 3A-3T and 3F-3Lo too. It was one of the strongest performance jump-wise this season. His PCS was 78, which is in reasonable range too.

 

[Buttercup]

Actually Wallylutz didn't include all KR jumps in that message. He did more than that and yes, from a technical point of view it was the strongest i have seen in the whole season. It was very impressive. And keep in mind, I am not a fan!
By the way, 3F/3L is an extremely difficult and rare combination

While the 4S-3T that Javi did is super common and easy? He also did a 4S past the second half mark. I'm not saying either skate is more impressive; only that I feel both had a lot of difficult technical content.

I'm aware that Wallylutz did not include all of Reynolds elements in the earlier post. I did not think that Reynolds only went for 5 jumping passes.

 

[jamie]

Actually Wallylutz didn't include all KR jumps in that message. He did more than that and yes, from a technical point of view it was the strongest i have seen in the whole season. It was very impressive. And keep in mind, I am not a fan!
By the way, 3F/3L is an extremely difficult and rare combination

Kevin has without question produced the most difficult jump layout of all time. That cannot be argued.

3 quads is staggering in itself but to add:
3axel/3 toe
3 flip/3 LOOP
and a 3 toe at the end of the second quad toe.....

I'm in awe. It's a shame for him that this isn't the 90's and PCS actually count. But a similar program at worlds will definitely get him top 6 in the Free!

 

[jamie]

Aside from Eric Millot and VDP, tell me one MAN who has landed 3 flip/3 loop?

I think you'll find the list of ladies who actually rotated the combo also quite short

It's important to give credit where it's due