2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

[Mathman]

As for the rest, I prefer Mirai to Ashley, but Mirai's performance deserved those scores. It's annoying to read people say "Skater X fell once and came 99743th whereas Skater Y fell three times and won." It doesn't work like that. Perhaps it's time for a skating version of the tennis "Hawkeye", so audiences can be shown underrotations. Or better commentators pointing them out.

For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.

By the way, on the men's coverage just now, Tracy Wilson did do a little segment on why it is better (points-wise) to fall on a quad toe than to get a get it downgraded to a triple. (Not sure if the audience was paying attention, but anyway... )

 

[Mrs. P]

For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.

By the way, on the men's coverage just now, Tracy Wilson did do a little segment on why it is better (points-wise) to fall on a quad toe than to get a get it downgraded to a triple. (Not sure if the audience was paying attention, but anyway... )

I did notice that segment. I think it was good they explained that.

 

[auga]

For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.

Mirai did a lot of URs, and she's the skater I was thinking of. Went on twitter last night, and there were lots of posts from people talking about how she was robbed, several saying she should have won and using the number of falls as criteria for victory.

 

[christinaskater]

Please let Gracie go to another choreographer who knows what her strengths are. Staying with Scott Brown isn't going to cut it. She needs imput from other people. Wow though once this girl really learns to skate and not just jump she will really be something.

I have to agree. She needs someone like David Wilson or Lori Nichol.

 

[christinaskater]

I think it was a combination of nerves and setbacks including the whole food poisoning thing that kept her away from the ice just a week before nationals. I know it sounds laughable, but I've seen it in action (unfortunate) and it really can take a lot out of you. My husband was sick for several days when he had it.

Really it seem Ashley has been through a lot this year -- she had a head cold during TEB, got a hip pointer during GPF then food posioning a week before Nationals...I'm hoping that she can stay away from all of those things for 4CC and Worlds.

These superstitious things and unfortunate events can really play on your mind and body. I hope she stays healthy and positive!

 

[Mathman]

Mirai did a lot of URs, and she's the skater I was thinking of. Went on twitter last night, and there were lots of posts from people talking about how she was robbed, several saying she should have won and using the number of falls as criteria for victory.

I forgot to say the main thing: Welcome! Post often, post long! :yes:

 

[christinaskater]

Wow. Not thrilled I let this competition take such a chunk of my night's sleep. Next year, I'm not going to set my alarm for 3 in the morning. I should be thrilled with who ended up 1-2. But yeah.

I feel bad for Ashley. 4 falls in two competition? And we know she can skate with crazy confidence, her Samson & Delilah was incredible at JO, SA, TEB... I think with the hip pointer and the salmonella they probably rushed her Nats training a bit, 'playing it safe' is not really 'playing it safe' if you haven't been able to practice even (slightly) watered down content properly. I feel bad that people are shouting "undeserved". She's the first US Lady to defend a title the first time out since... Rosalynn Summers? We should applaud this accomplishment. The hole Gracie buried herself in the SP was too big, she rightfully takes away the LP and the silver medal + the world team spot; let's see how she goes from here. How will she deal with the pressure of trying to win back that third spot?
I hope Ashley and her team make the right decision re 4 continents; would she need it to conquer her GPF and Nats demons in the freeskate before Worlds? Or does she need more time to regroup, find her strength and start training that 2A-3T and 3F-3T that sh's been talking about all season? I honestly wouldn't know which decision is the right one for Ashley. I hope John Nicks knows Ashley will/should listen to her Yoda

Also; what's with the bitchy vibe I got from the sneak-peak backstage when Mirai was skating? From what it looked like (but maybe someone saw with higher volume), Ashley was sitting backstage looking angry and frustrated (at herself, I assume), in comes John Nicks, telling her that Gracie skated really well and Ashley should congratulate her. So up she gets, offering Gracie, who is looking really sour herself, tapping on her phone and generally ignoring two Ashleys (the other being Ashley Cain trying to lighten the mood, I think), very reluctantly accepting Ashley (W.)'s hug. These to girls smiled and had fun together at WTT right? When did the war began? On a happier note Ashley and Agnes clearly get along

I think Gracie is just tired. Believe me or not, these girls are competitive. Not Tonya competitive but they are really very focused. I think everyone perceived Gracie as the "threat" and I believe some may not be as cool to her. Ashley is very professional and is very driven. I love her self-belief. Some may find her cocky but I think it's just confidence.

 

[christinaskater]

Well I wonder if Mirai, Caroline and Alissa will consider whether to skate one more year or will they wait to see if three spots are earned for the olympics. I am sure they will wait but one wonder if it is time for them to move on - still one wonders if Mirai who really looks like she could be a OGM sometimes will get it together. Wagner still was solid enough to win. Good work for Gold -her best - I sense she may be saving her best for world's - she is developing and peaking at the right time.

I do hope she could peak with 2 flawless performances in Worlds! Good thing it's in Canada! Let's support our girls there!

 

[christinaskater]

Random comments since the forum crashed last night...

Such a strange competition there at the end. I feel like with all of her clout and international potential, Ashley did enough to win anyway, it just feels so weird because they gave Gracie such a massive score likely because they assumed the good performances would keep coming, especially from those expected to perform (ironically the ones who weren't able to) and so they had to get crafty with the number manipulation in the end which really soured the competition. I can't imagine how casual viewers felt about that one, it may have come off as a huge wuzrobbed debacle.

You could see it all over her face that Gracie was disappointed not to win as well, but in a positive light, it's got to be better for her not to have the extra pressure of being the champion going to her first Worlds as a 17 year old kid, especially given how much she was feeling the pressure in this event. That excellently skated program seemed very cathartic for her, she just let it all go there when it was over. It's easy to forget this experience is all so new to her -hopefully this event was a good life lesson on managing expectations and she won't let them weigh her down so much going forward.

I do think they would have given Zawadski the marks if she didn't bomb for once. Mirai maybe not (although you can also say Ashley was placed above Gracie just in case Mirai nailed it - there's no way they were ever going to leave Wagner off the Worlds team no matter how this competition went) but I still don't see them trying to bury her either way as some have suggested. Not this year they weren't at least. I love her but she deserved her score relative to most of the programs we saw tonight. So many visible errors and not in a "let's go to the slow motion replay" sense, it was clear on first viewing that that was going to get wrecked by the technical panel.

Gao should have won at the very least a pewter. It just doesn't seem right to let a skater of such quality go unappreciated within her own country. On the bright side for her, it's only her second real senior season and she's been making good progress internationally so you've got to be kidding if you expect this to even get her to consider retirement.

Most awkward camera shot ever? Ashley Wagner smirking as Mirai collapses into tears behind her. That is so gif worthy, I can see non-figureskating fans/forums playing with that one for years to come.

I think Ashley was torn- she was happy she was National Champion and was sad to see Mirai.

 

[cheerio2]

I never said Cohen and Hughes were perfect. You, however, said Kwan never would have won with 2 falls at Nationals when, in fact, she did. None of the contenders in 2013 was perfect either when you look at both programs.

I wasn't looking at both programs, I was looking the one program. Kwan could not have fallen twice in the long program, completed only 4 clean triples, and won. Period. That is my point. Even if Kwan had been clean in the SP, she could not have won falling twice in the LP. At 2000 Nationals, Kwan was ranked 3rd for the SP because she fell, so the fall was duly taken into account. Then she completed six clean triples in the long, more than Sasha and Sarah, all of them fell, and she ranked first on the LP. Now with Ashley, she was ranked first in the SP even though others completed 3-3s because why??? Then she was ranked second in the LP even though she fell twice because why??? The judging was egregious. And yes, I am aware there are scores for quality of skating, components, artistry, etc. None of that justified the result in my mind.

 

[bekalc]

Ashley was touted as brave and pretty darn good at GPF now that same event for her is considered a disaster? Come on people if we want to see the judges show consistency shouldnt we also?

I never praised it, didn't watch it. Just know there were two disasterous programs in a row....

 

[Mathman]

Yeah I agree that the ones crticizing Ashley are 1.) Ones that always criticize her no matter what or 2.) Criticizing the system that allowed this result to happen.

Fpr me (although i am always up for a good round of CoP bashing ), I have to confess that taking it out on poor Ashley (and Agnes and Mirai) was purely psychological.

Every skater they showed skated lights out, personal best, hip-hip-hooray! Angela Wang, Carlline Zhang. Ashley Cain, Hannah Miller, Samantha Cesario, Christina Gao, Yasmie Siraj, Courtney Hicks, you go girls!

Then when it came time for the grand drum roll and cymbol clash that we had been crescendo-ing toward -- awww. (Somebody has to pay for ruining my evening. ) Sorry, Ash.

 

[Mrs. P]

Fpr me (although i am always up for a good round of CoP bashing ), I have to confess that taking it out on poor Ashley (and Agnes and Mirai) was purely psychological.

Every skater they showed skated lights out, personal best, hip-hip-hooray! Angela Wang, Carlline Zhang. Ashley Cain, Hannah Miller, Samantha Cesario, Christina Gao, Yasmie Siraj, Courtney Hicks, you go girls!

Then when it came time for the grand drum roll and cymbol clash that we had been crescendo-ing toward -- awww. (Somebody has to pay for ruining my evening. ) Sorry, Ash.

I have to admit it was quite unsatisfying after all those great performances, so no I don't blame you for taking it out on Ashley. But still somehow I can see how she backed her way into that win.

 

[Orange Cat]

Having watched the programs- well, Ashley was lucky to hold on, and I think she knew it. Gracie is an excellent athlete, though I could turn off the music and I enjoyed her program just the same that way- still, she has potential and at times she did project liveliness and a sense of connection to the music, even if those times were sparse.

To be honest, I'm sad for Mirai and sad for Caroline, but I'm really annoyed with how Christina was so underscored. To me she was definitely better than Agnes- good enough to overtake Agnes - and she is so much more pleasant to watch than Courtney Hicks, whose jumping skills I admire, but little else. I dunno. It wasn't the cleanest event, but I feel that Christina could (should) have been on the podium, and it's really her placement that is irritating me the most out of the results now.

 

[R.D.]

Bottom line was this: there was no clear winner of the event. It could have gone either way - I bet one could make convincing arguments to have either Wagner or Gold the winner.

That said, in such a close call like this, I figured the judges would lean toward Wagner (this is where some favoritism or politics may come into play, on an unconscious level). If Wagner didn't do so well on the GP, the judges may have leaned in Gold's direction.

In general, though, I'm glad Gold doesn't have the burden of being national champ because with all the media attention on her (Did you watch NBC simply waxing poetic over her the entire night?!??) and with her already showing signs of vulnerability, that pretty much would have been it.

You know I tell it straight as I see it - no favoritism or extreme bias here - As far as getting back the 3rd spot goes, I'm not liking the odds. 1 in 3 - that's Gold's hit rate for the short program this season (and the free skate for that matter). 1 in 2 - That is Wagner's hit rate with the freeskate...just flip a coin and that's how she'll do. To Wagner's credit, she has been consistent in the SP, but without a 3-3 that will leave her behind in the standings. So, since we need BOTH Wagner AND Gold to do well, the lower odds prevail in this case with Gold's SP troubles. You know what they say - a team is only as good as its weakest link. She struggled with nerves at SC and Nationals - Worlds is an even bigger event.

 

[Jammers]

I don't expect Ashley and Gracie are going to get that third spot back either. But no combination of skaters is going to get it back.

 

[ForeverFish]

I don't expect Ashley and Gracie are going to get that third spot back either. But no combination of skaters is going to get it back.

I still have hope. However, in the event that they don't manage 13th place overall, I'll sincerely fear for their futures in the eyes of the USFSA. Hopefully, the federation understands how much they're asking of these two and won't lowball them at next year's Nats if they don't meet expectations (Christina and Caroline, anyone?). Barring the sudden emergence of another star next season, Gracie and Ashley will be the most reliable American women headed into the Olympics.

 

[Jammers]

Unless Gracie gets injured or just doesn't improve i expect her to be in the running for a long time. I just wish she'd go to someone who knows how to choreograph programs for her. It's not unusual to have two different choreographers to do the SP and LP so she needs to explore her options. I don't know why her coaches are limiting her.

 

[silverlake22]

Still sad for Gao, who I thought really deserved to be 3rd or at least 4th...

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Wow, I had no idea that Ashley's winning was irritating to some people. Gracie had a TERRIBLE SP and was VERY far behind Ashley points-wise. I see the result not so much as Ashley being "propped up" as it is that Gracie just had too much ground to make up after the SP. After all, the winning margin was only 2.27, so it's not as though Ashley made those mistakes and still won by a landslide. It was CLOSE! The bottom line is that Ashley did enough in the SP relative to Gracie to maintain the lead over her. Frankly, I'm thrilled that Gracie was able to do such a stellar FS. She was SO happy after her skate, which made me so happy for her. It was definitely the best moment of the night for me.

I do feel bad for Mirai because before the marks I was hoping she would get 3rd. But, I can see why she wasn't on the podium. Her program was lifeless, just a list of elements that were barely gotten through. By Mirai's recent standards, however, it was a very good skate. Her lower technical content and her URs are what kills her. She has to really fight to rotate her jumps, whereas Zawadski's jumps look effortless when she executes them as planned. NBC should not have zoomed in on Mirai in the first moments of her disappointment. Of course she was going to react strongly since she always wears her emotions on her sleeve, but the viewing audience doesn't need to see it up close like that.

If I had been given the power to decide the final standings, my top six would have been:

1. Ashley
2. Gracie
3. Christina
4. Agnes
5. Mirai
6. Courtney