I do realize that so you don't have to be so condescending. I'd say there has been a lot of CoP era performances that excited me in both artistic and athletic ways. I do not really see how it was so artistic and soulful about those past performances, anyway. Maybe cuz I am a new fan, who didn't know figure skating existed in the 6.0 era.
2013 4CC's Mens FS
- Thread starter sequinsgalore
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't know the answers to these questions. I do know that I watched Fadeev's program all the way through, transfixed. I watched the first half of Lambiel's and turned it off. Don't know why.
Perhaps my favorite performance of all time is Michelle Kwan's Tosca at 2004 U.S. Nationals. She does nothing but stalk seven jumps one after the other. Yet commentator Dick Button is blubbering at the wonder of it all, and so was I. Hard to figure. Somehow there is more to it than x's and o's.
^^ No intention to be condescending. If you are a new fan, that does limit your perspective. Maybe you had to have witnessed some of the great skating performances growing up to truly understand. You had to be there to understand the excitement and electricity in the arena when Rudy Galindo received his marks in the kiss 'n cry at 1996 U.S. Nationals.
I'm not saying that 6.0 was a perfect scoring system. The sport had problems under 6.0 but IMO, the problems have only increased with IJS/ CoP, because TPTB acted too hastily and without a complete understanding of what figure skating is all about. I think they should have begun seriously working on making changes well before 2002, when they were suddenly forced to do so. There had been discussion in prior years, but TPTB were slow to change until it was forced upon them, and then they rushed in a new, half-baked system that has undergone constant reworking since then.
IMO, they should have carefully looked at a way to develop a new judging system with not completely throwing out the brand of 6.0. Even if they used 10.0, but something more accessible that protected the audience's relationship with that brand, and also that worked best for the skaters, and not something forced in primarily to protect the judges. Just as they should have acted with more caution before completely eliminating figures. It still should have been required for skaters to practice, but eliminating from competition or making figures competition a separate event might have worked better. The sport might not be dealing with so many technique problems on jumps had they acted with more diligence regarding understanding the basic importance of practicing figures.
Feeling frustrated after having watched these programs. The judges need to find some kind of happy medium with COP. It can't be all about jumps and giving component scores as a reward for technical excellence even when choreography, interpretation, musicality, etc. are absent from programs. I've seen almost all the free skates now, and honestly, Takahashi and Hanyu are the only skaters who look as though they're doing something other than paying lip service to the choreography.
It's hard for me to knock the skaters, because you do what you have to do to get as many points as possible. I'd probably put together programs the same way if I competed. And the technical content they're bringing to these competitions is INSANE. Kudos to them for that. But just like people complained (and still complain) that it was a problem that Chan could fall 3 times in a program and place first by 20 points because his component scores are so much better than other skaters', I'm complaining about Aaron, Reynolds, Yan, Song, Dornbush (to a lesser extent), and others being rewarded for jumping exhibitions that don't resemble performances. There's no artistic impression, no attempt to connect with the audience, to tell a story with the choreography except by punctuating crescendos in the music with half-hearted arm movements. Some of them don't even have good basic skating in between the jumps-- relatively slow, mediocre edge quality, etc.
I hope that some of the better performers bring the technical content at Worlds. Either way, here's hoping that the judges figure out a balance between rewarding technical and artistic elements where it exists and marking down skaters who are deficient in either area before Sochi.
It's hard for me to knock the skaters, because you do what you have to do to get as many points as possible. I'd probably put together programs the same way if I competed. And the technical content they're bringing to these competitions is INSANE. Kudos to them for that. But just like people complained (and still complain) that it was a problem that Chan could fall 3 times in a program and place first by 20 points because his component scores are so much better than other skaters', I'm complaining about Aaron, Reynolds, Yan, Song, Dornbush (to a lesser extent), and others being rewarded for jumping exhibitions that don't resemble performances. There's no artistic impression, no attempt to connect with the audience, to tell a story with the choreography except by punctuating crescendos in the music with half-hearted arm movements. Some of them don't even have good basic skating in between the jumps-- relatively slow, mediocre edge quality, etc.
I hope that some of the better performers bring the technical content at Worlds. Either way, here's hoping that the judges figure out a balance between rewarding technical and artistic elements where it exists and marking down skaters who are deficient in either area before Sochi.
Right on!
^^
I think the basic critiques re the judging system and in general the lack of understanding of what makes the sport unique by TPTB holds true no matter who wins or doesn't win. It's the way PCS are so manipulable and the over-emphasis on quads, and sameness of many moves, and slow eked out spin revolutions that are problematic, added to the fact that the rules constantly change.
It's a nice win for Kevin because he mastered quads and made some improvements in his skating, and mainly in his confidence. He was also the most consistent skater, so well deserved. But he also won because the expected heavyweights did not perform to their ability. So that's sport, but the placements were off even in the short program. E.g., Nan should probably have been ahead of Dai and Han was a bit over-scored, plus Ross and Max were a bit underscored vs. guys who also made some minor mistakes ahead of them. Max did not make a huge mistake in the short program, and presentation-wise he performed no differently than in the fp, yet his PCS increased. He completed the revolutions on his fall in the sp, and the fall did not significantly detract from the performance. The judges seem to make a course correction re rewarding or not rewarding on PCS, having not much to do with the actual skating.
I think the basic critiques re the judging system and in general the lack of understanding of what makes the sport unique by TPTB holds true no matter who wins or doesn't win. It's the way PCS are so manipulable and the over-emphasis on quads, and sameness of many moves, and slow eked out spin revolutions that are problematic, added to the fact that the rules constantly change.
It's a nice win for Kevin because he mastered quads and made some improvements in his skating, and mainly in his confidence. He was also the most consistent skater, so well deserved. But he also won because the expected heavyweights did not perform to their ability. So that's sport, but the placements were off even in the short program. E.g., Nan should probably have been ahead of Dai and Han was a bit over-scored, plus Ross and Max were a bit underscored vs. guys who also made some minor mistakes ahead of them. Max did not make a huge mistake in the short program, and presentation-wise he performed no differently than in the fp, yet his PCS increased. He completed the revolutions on his fall in the sp, and the fall did not significantly detract from the performance. The judges seem to make a course correction re rewarding or not rewarding on PCS, having not much to do with the actual skating.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
I agree. Has to have a balance. People complained when Patrick had the highest SS and pcs in the world and still won with a few mistakes and now not only Patrick but also Yuzuru, and Dai can loose to skater who lacks their SS and pcs but have the jumps and a cleaner skate so there are complaints there too. I prefer a little more quality of SS and artistry.
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- Joined
- Jan 15, 2012
Can't please everyone including myself. Poor judges. If they reward clean hard great jumps over PCs, some complain. If they reward PCs over unclean jumps or falls, some complain. I feel for the judges.
^^
Just as the judging needs to have standards and balance, the skaters also need to have good SS, technical consistency and artistry. The scores need to reflect that standard regardless of who the skater is or what they are capable of doing. As it stands now, there is too much confusion re what's a fall and what's not a fall. And frankly, IMO, I don't think making the revolutions and then falling should necessarily receive points. It's like it's written into the rules that falling is okay if thus and so happens, and not completely having your body on the ice is not a fall (where sometimes that rule is abided by if the judges like a skater, and sometimes it isn't, e.g., Mirai's "non-fall" at U.S. Nationals was judged a fall and a deduction was taken). All of this and more is too confusing which leads to vast discrepancies and inconsistencies between judges's scores and in judging from event to event.
Skaters who are considered to have better SS need to strive to skate clean well-balanced programs and not expect to be forgiven for huge mistakes. That's the problem ... there simply isn't a clear standard because the rules are always changing, and the PCS is used like place holders with no real regard to how skaters actually performed presentation-wise. But the main problem is, the judges don't really seem to know how to judge what good SS, CH, IN, and PE consists of anyway. If there was a consistent standard, that would help everyone's understanding including judges, skaters, coaches, fans, commentators, and the general public.
Can't please everyone including myself. Poor judges. If they reward clean hard great jumps over PCs, some complain. If they reward PCs over unclean jumps or falls, some complain. I feel for the judges.
But that's the point. It should not be an either/ or situation. An understandable, easily measurable and fair standard is required, or else what's the point of the judging and the rules anyway? I wouldn't call them "poor judges." They certainly know what they signed up for and why. Plus under the new system, the judges are the ones being carefully protected at the expense of the skaters and the fans, IMHO.
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- Nov 7, 2007
^^^ I find it highly ironic that you're talking about "standards and balance" in SS and "artistry" when you complain that Max Aaron of all people is underscored in PCS.
^^
Yes, but again, that's the point. I never said Max deserved high or low PCS. I said based on the overall scoring, and in terms of technical mistakes made by skaters placed ahead of Max and Ross, that I felt Max and Ross were a bit underscored in that respect.
Regarding PCS, I said that there isn't a standard, and that the PCS wildly fluctuate. The thing is, if Max was judged a certain way in PCS in the short, and his presentation didn't appreciably change in the lp, then why did his PCS increase? It either needed to be higher consistently or lower consistently. The fluctuation simply demonstrates that because Max skated early in the sp, the judges held back on PCS (again the place holding effect), as well as under-rewarding technically in comparison to skaters placed in front, and then the judges made a course correction on PCS in the lp. I'm simply using the case of Max as an example, but there are plenty of examples. That doesn't mean I'm saying what Max's PCS needed to be, just that there should be a measurable and understandable standard for PCS and TES in place that is abided by consistently without the confusing fluctuation.
^^ 
Despite my laughter re your perfectly timed question, I have to say I'm sure Kevin's fans will be re-watching his performances (although they must know his sp by heart by now), and maybe Richard's fans re-watching his sp which was one of his best performances of that sp this season. I love Richard's sp music too, btw.
Otherwise to the dustbin of forgotten history doth 2013 4CCs go, and not too quickly enough I might add.
Despite my laughter re your perfectly timed question, I have to say I'm sure Kevin's fans will be re-watching his performances (although they must know his sp by heart by now), and maybe Richard's fans re-watching his sp which was one of his best performances of that sp this season. I love Richard's sp music too, btw.
Otherwise to the dustbin of forgotten history doth 2013 4CCs go, and not too quickly enough I might add.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Maybe Misha Ge's. He might not have the jumps to contend, but he's a fantastic performer.
I also hear that Christopher Caluza was enjoyable.
Oh, but you meant the top guys? Honestly, most programs are so interchangeable these days that unless a skater is really able to bring something special into it, I'm not interested in a repeat viewing.
Some advice to the men:
Reynolds - if you keep landing the jumps, you might pass Dai in PCS. So just keep landing them?
Hanyu - Yuzuru, unless you can find a way to work around the stamina issues, you are not meant for backloaded programs. Change your jump layout. And while at it, skate last year's LP at Worlds. You look bored with Notre Dame de Paris.
Yan - get a better choreographer.
Max Aaron - work on presentation, not that it will matter if you can land your jumps.
Ross Miner - I have no advice for Ross because his skating always puts me to sleep.
Daisuke Takahashi - dump Morozov and Morozov's programs. Take any of your old programs and skate those instead.
Further down the rankings...
Misha Ge - is fabulous. If only he could get his tech up.
Elladj Balde - if you're going to skate an Amodio-like program, don't do it in a plain black hoodie with your hair scraped back.
Scoring inflation: remember when 160 was pretty special and 170 unheard of? I get that skaters have learned to work with the system, but Kevin Reynolds and Max Aaron now have LP PBs higher than Joubert and Lambiel, and Reynolds' PCS is in the ballpark of the best Buttle ever received. That is just wrong in every way, even with three quads (which Joubert, of course, has landed in the past).
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- Feb 25, 2006
They're showing a couple of men again on British Eurosport and the announcer just said Kevin Reynolds is a contender for the GOLD medal at worlds. A medal, maybe, but the GOLD? That's a stretch, and I like the guy..
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2012
Honestly, I really like the Eurosport guys, but some things they said during this 4CC were just very questionable. One of them being, that this was one of the best Men's competition ever. What? I will never watch it again, it was horrible and not only because my favourites didn't deliver. It left me totally unsatisfied and there was just very little excitement in it.
^^ ITA. Howarth and Reed actually said quite a few things during the broadcast that were either generalized, OTT, and in a few cases inaccurate. E.g., they confused Christina with Mirai inexplicably by saying that Christina came in 6th and struggled with the flu at Nationals. That was a bad error on their part. Christina was underscored at Nationals, did not have the flu, and she placed 5th (Siraj was 6th and Mirai 7th). Usually Howarth and Reed are on target re their knowledge of the aesthetic qualities of figure skating, but clearly they aren't greatly familiar with all of the skaters. I guess they don't have a good research staff assisting them.
They were gushing a bit about Kevin. While it was a breakthrough performance for Kevin and a pleasing personal victory for him, it was not close to being one of the greatest performances this season, or ever. Although he's showing improvement in expressing the music, Kevin needs to tone down his over dramatic windmilling arms, and continue to work on improving his skating skills and refinement.
Obviously Howarth and Reed immediately realized their mistake in saying that Kevin was a contender for gold, as they quickly mentioned that of course Takahashi has the experience and ability to skate better, Hanyu likely will skate better, and Fernandez also has 3 quads and skated better than Kevin at Europeans. Even Amodio would likely be scored ahead of Kevin on PCS if he does as well as he did at Euros. And then Howarth and Reed seemed to have completely forgotten about Kevin's compatriot and the defending World champion, Patrick Chan. I guess out of sight, out of mind.
With clean quads in both programs, possibly Kevin is a contender for top five or six. It depends upon how the top guys skate, and also how well Brezina and other second tier guys skate. During the zamboni cleaning, Eurosport only showed Kevin's and Nan Song's long programs. Nan didn't perform as well in his lp as he did in his sp, and the lp wasn't as well-choreographed. Also, I think Nan is an example of someone who if they skate clean, what is the standard for measuring his performance against someone like Dai who made technical errors, but still has better SS and better artistry? That is something that I don't think is adequately clarified under IJS. Even with a clean skate (as in the sp), Nan's weakness is that his SS aren't great; he also needs to develop more stretch, more speed and flow over the ice, and more style and polish which all can come with hard work and maturity.
Another thing is how can skaters under this new system and in this new environment overcome a lack of reputation as well as increase their confidence. There are so many variables involved, but with a strict and emphatic emphasis upon landing quads, quads and more quads, other good qualities that a skater has often are overlooked or disregarded, especially if they do not have an established top level reputation. Ross Miner comes to mind in that respect, because he has excellent skating skills and an engaging skating style. I think Ross' weaknesses are fairly minor (
no pun intended); he has a tendency to be a little stiff but conversely he also has good carriage and posture, very good speed, and excellent centering and positions on his spins. He's also a very good jumper with usually steady consistency. He has just recently mastered the quad salchow and has a good execution rate. I think it was a bit of nerves and plus competing again so close to Nationals that may have thrown him off on his quad at 4CC, which then affected his concentration on a couple of other jumps. Still he did not fall completely apart in either program. Skating early in the sp kept his score down which also hurt him. Still, by missing a couple of jumps, I don't think that should adversely affect PCS in every category unless the performance quality is down in every category. I don't think Ross gets enough credit for his skating skills and polish which I think are better than a lot of guys, including Kevin. Ross does need to improve his on-ice style, interpretation and artistry, but he has good musicality. And both of Ross' programs this season are beautifully choreographed.In regard to Richard, he was well-rewarded for a good short program. Too bad he did not have as strong a lp. Richard needs to work on keeping his shoulders down and improving his posture overall, as well as his confidence. Otherwise he has everything and he should continue to improve, but it's hard for him to not have the opportunity to go to Worlds every year and gain momentum internationally.
Max is a great jumper and unfortunately I don't think he gets enough credit for his other good qualities such as speed, flow, and ice coverage. He also has good spins (he could make them even better), and he has good stretch. He could improve some of his blade work, and he definitely needs to learn how to extend his moves and interpret the music better. I think Max is overly dismissed by some fans on PCS simply because he is short and has short limbs. But he is very good at using every inch of his body -- he has good body control and he moves well. With maturity and experience, he should be able to improve his weaknesses. He's improved a great deal since last season. Even though I haven't been a huge fan of his, I'm glad Max has this opportunity to compete at Worlds, and I hope he makes the most of it. I think he has a great temperament, and he seems to be strong mentally. He just needs more experience in the big arena.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2012
What I really appreciate about the British Eurosport guys is the enthusiasm and positivity they infuse into their commentary. Even when I manage to catch competitions live through other sources, I'll actively search for the British Eurosport broadcast (if available) through Youtube afterwards, because I find their commentary adds something to the viewing experience. Yes, they get their facts mixed up, but as a skating fan, I don't need them to tell me who ranked where in the last competition, or how to pronounce Daisuke Takahashi's name correctly - I already know that. For casual viewers, they aren't going to remember or care about statistics, what they benefit from is energetic and engaging commentary to go along with the show.
Regarding the free skate - hugely surprising results, but congrats to Kevin for another excellent skate. I suppose this kills any chance of him dumping Macleod? I'm skeptical about his PCS staying this high, though if he manages to make it 3 super competitions in a row, he's definitely in the mix for a medal.
Regarding the free skate - hugely surprising results, but congrats to Kevin for another excellent skate. I suppose this kills any chance of him dumping Macleod? I'm skeptical about his PCS staying this high, though if he manages to make it 3 super competitions in a row, he's definitely in the mix for a medal.
