- Joined
- Jan 29, 2011
Lol. Yuna lips once as far as my memory recalls (in 2008?) and suddenly she's a chronic lipper. Prettykeys, where are you?
Which Ladies Can Skate a 130+ LP at Worlds?
- Thread starter drivingmissdaisy
- Start date
Lol. Yuna lips once as far as my memory recalls (in 2008?) and suddenly she's a chronic lipper. Prettykeys, where are you?
Then your memory FAILED you.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
I am just greatly amused how passionately non-Caro and non-YuNa ubers FlattFan, mateus, jenaj and Bartek are discussing the fine differences between Carolina's and YuNa's Lutzes and Flips. Not in a condescending way, but this is really why we are gathered on a figure skating forum, right? Because we're figure skating fans and can be passionate about aspects of figure skating without necessarily playing favourites.
To my eyes, the differences are so minor that they aren't going to make or break whose program or skate I prefer. Carolina's telegraphing does not take away my appreciation of her beautiful 3Lutz and I do not have the skating experience/expertise to declare that it makes the execution of it easier. There aren't too many Lutzes in the top ladies' field right now that make me go "wow". Carolina is one skater who does it like that. YuNa and Gracie are two others. The technical finesse is so high that it's aesthetically pleasing to behold, because I'm one of those people who gets off on that sort of thing.
Carolina, YuNa both have beautiful 3Flips. As a YuNa fan, I can remember way back in 2005, 2006 when Carolina was doing a 3F-3T and I dare-say that I think they are my favourite 3F-3T's. The horizontal distance and delicate touch as she flew through the air were gorgeous. YuNa's 3F-3T was more of a power display in its explosiveness. Once again, splitting hairs and falling on personal preferences. YuNa got a few ! calls because she sometimes took off her Flips on a flat and the callers at the time decided it was a "slightly wrong edge" because it wasn't clearly on the inside. She did get one e and it really was on an outside edge at the time. It happens. I'm glad that nitpicking nincompoopery was disposed of and that she's proven herself able to do clean Flips, even spontaneous 3F-2T's and 3F-3T's on the rare occasion she misses her signature 3Lz-3T.
In the end we're powerless to change the course of history. The girls will skate however they skate and the podium will be decided on more than these fine differences. Right now I'm just patiently waiting for Worlds because I'm oh-so-curious what happens! And I'm definitely not overconfident on YuNa's behalf. There are so many good skaters...there's that delicious excitement and nervousness again! :yay:
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- Jan 29, 2011
Yuna got 1 e on her flip throughout the years, as well as a few ! As far as I know, she's also fallen far less and overall had fewer problems with her flips than Carolina. How many ratified 3F-3T have both received in international competition? It would be intellectually dishonest to suggest that Carolina has had a better flip over the years if in fact she hasn't received all the credit for it due to falls or edge deductions. It would not however be so if you claimed that at her best Carolina's flip might be better than Yuna's, because as prettykeys suggested this does come down to personal preference.
Nitpicking Yuna to death while ignoring the troubles another skater has had speaks of dishonesty and having an axe to grind with skaters who are in the mix to really challenge for Worlds next month.
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- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
^ I don't know if FlattFan's favourite skater right now is Carolina. She has stated that to her, Mao Asada has the better 3Loop, although to me the best 3Loop of the current top ladies belongs to Carolina (they both have excellent 3Loops; Carolina's looks like it has more height.) It's hard to say because she switches a lot. 
Maybe no one is her favourite.
I love all these skaters. They have brought so many wonderful performances to us to enjoy. Oh mannn was I mad that Carolina took Silver at 2008 Worlds at the time, but over the years I've grown fond and appreciative of her. Her 2005 Worlds SP is one of my favourite SP's of all. This graceful veteran of the sport with so much quality in almost everything she does... I am not crazy about her Bolero LP but she has my respect and if she puts everything together, will get a deserved monster score in London.
Also - that "personal preference" comment is just my opinion, after all. Maybe someone with stronger technical knowledge can break down what deserves to be scored or regarded higher due to whatever factors, but I cannot make that claim.
Maybe no one is her favourite.I love all these skaters. They have brought so many wonderful performances to us to enjoy. Oh mannn was I mad that Carolina took Silver at 2008 Worlds at the time, but over the years I've grown fond and appreciative of her. Her 2005 Worlds SP is one of my favourite SP's of all. This graceful veteran of the sport with so much quality in almost everything she does... I am not crazy about her Bolero LP but she has my respect and if she puts everything together, will get a deserved monster score in London.
Also - that "personal preference" comment is just my opinion, after all. Maybe someone with stronger technical knowledge can break down what deserves to be scored or regarded higher due to whatever factors, but I cannot make that claim.
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Well, then you conveniently ignored what prompted my response.
That person said Yuna over the year had better GOE, better flip, blah blah blah while ignoring Yuna's problem with the flip. Well, I reminded him/her that Yuna's flip got wrong edge deduction for a while, and her flip became unstable for another while.
No one is out to nitpick your precious and ignoring Carolina's own troubles. How is that dishonesty?
This is why I feel Yuna's fans are so special.
Let me clarify.
Do I prefer Carolina's flip to Yuna's flip? Yes.
Do I prefer Yuna's lutz to Carolina's lutz? Yes.
Do I wish Carolina doesn't take that long to set up her jumps? Yes.
Do I like the top 3 girls? Way more than the rest, save Akiko.
Do I like one girl in the top 3 more than the others? Yes
Do I think one girl in the top 3 are better than the other 2 in every ways? No
Caro's telegraphed jumps have SO MANY other qualities that she regularly got +2 GOE anyway. That's why I responded to a few people who clearly had no understanding of what GOE is, and kept on saying how terrible her telegraphed jumps are. If they are so bad, why do they get big GOE every time she landed them cleanly?
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
Just to be clear, all the jumps you listed on Yuna's part were executed later in the second half whereas Carolina's 2a and 3f were the first two elements of her program and 3s was right after 2 min mark. Stamina takes a part in that, too, you know.
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- Jan 29, 2011
Let's just leave it at this then - if Yu-Na and Carolina skate to their full potential the race will be very tight indeed. (Add Mao in there too). I have my doubts about Kim - I would have liked to have seen her in a couple more competitions and I do worry that her Les Mis program is not as special as her other programs. Shall we agree?
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Let's just leave it at this then - if Yu-Na and Carolina skate to their full potential the race will be very tight indeed. (Add Mao in there too). I have my doubts about Kim - I would have liked to have seen her in a couple more competitions and I do worry that her Les Mis program is not as special as her other programs. Shall we agree?
I have to agree with this
Yeah and he has picked 2011 when Yu-Na was clearly not in her best form. Maybe let's look at 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 seasons and compare the GOE's? Yu-Na consistently got 2's and 3's for her SUPER CONSISTENT triple-triples and 2's for her 3F's and 1's-2's for her 2A-3T's whereas Caro became consistant only after 2011 Worlds.
Yu-Na consistenly got 2's for her 3F's in 2009-2010 season as well and she also got 2's and 3's for something that Caro never got as high GOE that is a triple-triple combination.
Let's just leave it at this then - if Yu-Na and Carolina skate to their full potential the race will be very tight indeed. (Add Mao in there too). I have my doubts about Kim - I would have liked to have seen her in a couple more competitions and I do worry that her Les Mis program is not as special as her other programs. Shall we agree?
I think we agreed a long time ago. I said if both skate clean to their planned contents, Caro will be a few points behind after the SP, but will make up a few points in the LP, so it would be really close and could go either way.
Mao is the one they should be jumping over.
Prior to 2009 world, she always does 3F-3T, and the combo get low GOE because of the edge problem
After that, the 2009-2010 season!!!!!!
at TEB
SP, where she did the 3F alone.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra09/gpfra09_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
+1 GOE
Completely missed the flip in the LP
In SA 2009
Her Flip got mostly +2, some +1 in the SP
Again, in the LP, her flip got -3 GOE and URed.
In GPF
Popped her flip in the SP
0 GOE in the LP
At the Olympics (where Kim is at her absolute peak)
Her flip has lower GOE than Carolina. And Carolina was a complete mess with political dumping as well. Her PCS was actually lower than most girls, including Miki, Joannie, Laura, etc...
Kim, half +1, haf+2
Caro, mostly +2
In the LP, Kim got most +2 GOE2
At the World 2010
Kim URed her flip in the SP, got mostly -GO
in the LP, she got mostly +2 GOE.
So, the real question is why are you lying? She did not consistenty get +2 +3 GOE for her flip even in her best season. And face to face, the judges still give Caro higher GOE, dating back to the Olympics.
For anyone who's feeling nostalgic, here are the SPs for the main contenders in the 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4BEsHP-TKM
Poor Carolina. I forgot how bad she was.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4BEsHP-TKM
Poor Carolina. I forgot how bad she was.
.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
Is everyone forgetting that GOE guideline has been changed drastically since 2010? It was difficult for any skater of high technical quality to receive 3s on GOEs before. After ISU had GOE factoring reduced to 70% then we began to see multiple 3s and 2s on protocol. Well, Yuna's 3-3s were one of very rare elements that got +3s prior to this change.
Wherever this obsession about the number of +2s and +3s is coming from, the thing is that all is dependent on how skaters execute on that very day. Be it that worlds or olympics. And I just remembered, if the ladies podium consist of Carolina, Yuna, and Mao in any order, it's 2008 worlds again. It's five years ago and these three ladies are still the prominent contenders. Wow.
Wherever this obsession about the number of +2s and +3s is coming from, the thing is that all is dependent on how skaters execute on that very day. Be it that worlds or olympics. And I just remembered, if the ladies podium consist of Carolina, Yuna, and Mao in any order, it's 2008 worlds again. It's five years ago and these three ladies are still the prominent contenders. Wow.
Yuna's 3lutz-3toe is worth of the +2 +3 GOE she got.
Caro's 3flip is one of the best. Too bad there are some people who kept on saying how terrible it is. That's where the +2s +3s GOE are coming from.
When LANDED cleanly it did get mostly 2's. After all this the main argument you use when it comes to Carolina. When landed, her jumps are awsome, that's right. The thing is that Yu-Na lands her jumps cleanly much more often than Caro and when she does she receives big GOE. Before her 3F-3T's were given ! mark, she had gotten 2's across the board for it, something that was matched only when Liza emerged on the senior scene. Yu-Na's 3Lz-3T's even got some 3's apart from usual 2's. Yu-Na's axels also have been awarded with higher GOE ever since 2006-2007 season. Of course you can pick a competition when Caro got higher scores for 2A like 2011 Worlds but on average Yu-Na got better marks for the jump.
Wow!
So let me recap this nonsense
I: "Caro's flip is great. Amazing"
Yuna's fans: "Oh no, she telegraphed too much. That made the jump terrible."
I: "Telegraphing doesn't make it a bad jump. Look at the GOE for her flip. When she landed them cleanly, she got +2 GOE almost across the board."
Yuna's fans: "You don't know what you are talking about. Telegraphing a jump is a bad jump. Look up the rule"
I: "Look at what she's getting. +2, +3"
Yuna's fans: "She can't do a triple flip that often. And her lutz, god, who knows if she really keeps it on the outside edge"
I: "Urgh, what? Look again. Here's a video."
Yuna's fans: "Oh no, she's really inconsistent. Kim regularly get +2 on her flip consistently during the 2009-2010 season"
I: "What? Look at her records. She wasn't that consistent with the flip and she got some edge call. How can it be better?"
Yuna's fans: "Oh, but she does 3F-3T and she routinely got +2 +3. She just has better flip"
I: "Not really. The few times they competed head to head, Caro's flip got better GOE. Like the 2011 World."
Yuna's fans: "Oh, not fair. Yuna wasn't at her best"
I: "At the Olympics, where Yuna is at her best, her flip still got lower GOE"
Yuna's fans: "Oh, but she does 3F-3T. And she got +3 and +2 on her 3Lz-3T, too. Oh, and Michelle said she's awesome. And Scott and Sandra and everyone think she's the best. Her 3F is better than the Samsung Galaxy S4. She should get +4 GOE"
Good grief. I will stop here.
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