2014 Olympics Ladies Free Skate

[HalfTriple]

Ok, poor choice of words. forget light out.
So you basically confirming that the presumed degree, quality, and "comprehensive realm" of skating of the top veteran ladies is prohibitive for anyone else to compete against them as it's just different universe. Well, why would they invite Adelinas to this "realm"?
What is the point?

Prohibit is not right choice; gap is gap. difference is difference. If Ashley has no chance to beat Kim or Kostner, shall she give up competing? Or Should she not try her best to make up her deficiency in competitive strategy? And who knows she may demonstrate quite improved merits, but in ladies free, it was a closed case: there is no way in your right mind to say Adelina or any other win the competition.

 

[Nater]

Adelina was also overscored in the the TES.

She got more goe for her jumps than Carolina, Yuna and Gracie(girls with better jumps than Adelina). She also got more GOE for her steps the Mao Asada.

Also, the judges did not mark her flutz. The 3T of the 3Lz+3T was UR. Herstep out on that 3-jump combo should get -2(she gost mostly -1). Her 2A+3T had a bad back posture and awkward and lean landing. That 2A+3T should recieve, at most, +1. Most of the judges gave it +2 and +3.

It takes a special type of crazy to say Kostner is a better jumper than Sotnikova.

 

[HalfTriple]

It takes a special type of crazy to say Kostner is a better jumper than Sotnikova.

Jump is a many sided component, and figure is aesthetic sport. hope this help.

 

[Ven]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I just wanted to share my thrill for one of the best skated ladies FS competition in olympic history. I am having hard time choosing the winner to be honest. My sentimental winner would be Carolina. But I have no problems with placements overall.
But I am also puzzled by some of the comments here. So the only reason Adelina should not have won is that she by definition could not have PCS at the same level as Kim, Carolina, or Mao. In fact she should be 6 points below?
Well then my next question is why do we need to have this competition if from the starting point she can skate lights out but still she, or anyone else not named Kim, Mao or Carolina, would never win against the three?
It does not make sense to me. Or can somebody explain to me what would one need to do to win against the triumvirate, hope for them to fall? wait for them to retire? Or maybe have segregate the contenders into categories from the start based on their PCS abilities?
I am just curious.

There's a reason why there are components scores. Adelina did not follow her music, her skating skills are not equal to Yuna's etc.

She also stumbled on a jump, a mistake. Neither Yuna nor Caro made a mistake.

 

[whatif]

Prohibit is not right choice; gap is gap. difference is difference. If Ashley has no chance to beat Kim or Kostner, shall she give up competing? Or Should she not try her best to make up her deficiency in competitive strategy? And who knows she may demonstrate quite improved merits, but in ladies free, it was a closed case: there is no way in your right mind to say Adelina or any other win the competition.

i just think it's wrong to say something like that, just like it is also wrong to to rig the competition.

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh, I don't think so, not at all. If you read the article, the two changes she suggests are (1) eliminate anonymous judging and (2) increase the penalty for falls so that clean programs are valued over flawed ones. (1) is in the works already and will probably be implemented next spring. (2) is a matter of on-going debate -- I think the majority of fans agree that there ought to be a way to reward clean programs better, but we can't agree on the details of how best to do it.

Ashley skated great in the LP. She could easily have got fifth. (I thought the same about Rachael Flatt in 2010.)

Her remarks about favoritism toward Russian skaters was pretty mild -- most posts on this board are far more direct.

I agree, Mathman. In fact, I can see why Ashley feels gypped. Julia scores 69.82 in the Team event for a flawless FS. And then scores 70.06 for a FS that had errors.

Ashley got 30.94 in PCS in the team event in the SP, a week later she got 33.64 for the same program.

I mean it's totally confusing. The anonymous judging keeps judges from having to explain themselves and how they score. Yes, yes different panels and judges...but the scoring has been inconsistent, I think, therein lies the problem.

 

[zschultz1986]

A combination? I thought Adelina got dinged for that mistake on the 3jump combo as much as it could. What would you give it?

She was not. It was a mostly -1s, when, if Ashley's 3/3 was given -3s by some and -2s by most, it should have been the SAME. She landed on two feet and over-rotated. The only way it could have been worse was if she had fallen.

The judging was MUCH less critical for her than all others. Judges 2 and 7 on Adelina's sheet, in particular were extremely generous to her.

The range on her 3Z-3T says it all. How can a jump combo have a range from -1 to +3? If there was a flutz (that wasn't called) then it that is on the Tech caller.

 

[hurrah]

There's a reason why there are components scores. Adelina did not follow her music, her skating skills are not equal to Yuna's etc.

She also stumbled on a jump, a mistake. Neither Yuna nor Caro made a mistake.

Well, I wouldn't say neither Yuna nor Caro made mistakes. They did, but on the whole, they still should have won over Adelina who also made mistakes and basically is an inferior skater.

 

[Nater]

I actually agree with Ashley. I see nothing controversial or personal in her comments.

The only controversial thing about what Wagner said is that she actually believed she was in contention for a medal. She actually seems kind of bigger that she is behind Gracie Gold simply because Gracie Gold fell in an otherwise outstanding performance. Even with the fall, Gracie deserved to be a good 10 points ahead of Wagner who skates around like she has ankle weights on.

Wagners best chance for a major international title or medal was in that weak field in 2012 when Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva weren't eligible, Lipnitskaya was still in diapers, Gold was still a Junior, Kim was absent, and Mao was having serious issues, among other things. That was her best chance.

She didn't capitalize on it then, because she was busy playing it safe. I don't think she will ever have another shot at a major international title and will even have a hard time getting on the podium moving forwards because the younger skaters from the US and Russia are too superior to her.

Wagner is acting like the quality of her skating is on the level of the top contenders and simply "not falling" is enough to score high. It does not work that way.

And I hate the way she skates literally across the rink just to go into her 3F/3T. Is all of that telegraphing really necessary, seriously?

Also, wasn't Ashley singing a completely different tune when she won Nationals last year with that disastrous Free Skate, and acting "baller" when she got on the Olympic team due to her "body of work?" She was barely better than Polina Edmunds here, and only because the judges hosed Edmunds in components (and GoE) for being young and new.

 

[whatif]

There's a reason why there are components scores. Adelina did not follow her music, her skating skills are not equal to Yuna's etc.

She also stumbled on a jump, a mistake. Neither Yuna nor Caro made a mistake.

I can see your point. What would you recommend Adelina to do differently "to follow her music"?

Also as I have been on this board for some time now, I remember everyone completing Adelina's superior skating skills. That is something all skating experts also agree. Well that was until tonight of course.

 

[imisscohen]

The only controversial thing about what Wagner said is that she actually believed she was in contention for a medal. She actually seems kind of bigger that she is behind Gracie Gold simply because Gracie Gold fell in an otherwise outstanding performance. Even with the fall, Gracie deserved to be a good 10 points ahead of Wagner who skates around like she has ankle weights on.

Wagners best chance for a major international title or medal was in that weak field in 2012 when Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva weren't eligible, Lipnitskaya was still in diapers, Gold was still a Junior, Kim was absent, and Mao was having serious issues, among other things. That was her best chance.

She didn't capitalize on it then, because she was busy playing it safe. I don't think she will ever have another shot at a major international title and will even have a hard time getting on the podium moving forwards because the younger skaters from the US and Russia are too superior to her.

Wagner is acting like the quality of her skating is on the level of the top contenders and simply "not falling" is enough to score high. It does not work that way.

And I hate the way she skates literally across the rink just to go into her 3F/3T. Is all of that telegraphing really necessary, seriously?

Also, wasn't Ashley singing a completely different tune when she won Nationals last year with that disastrous Free Skate, and acting "baller" when she got on the Olympic team due to her "body of work?" She was barely better than Polina Edmunds here, and only because the judges hosed Edmunds in components (and GoE) for being young and new.

I think you're crying more than she is, to be honest.

 

[zschultz1986]

The only controversial thing about what Wagner said is that she actually believed she was in contention for a medal. She actually seems kind of bigger that she is behind Gracie Gold simply because Gracie Gold fell in an otherwise outstanding performance. Even with the fall, Gracie deserved to be a good 10 points ahead of Wagner who skates around like she has ankle weights on.

Wagners best chance for a major international title or medal was in that weak field in 2012 when Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva weren't eligible, Lipnitskaya was still in diapers, Gold was still a Junior, Kim was absent, and Mao was having serious issues, among other things. That was her best chance.

She didn't capitalize on it then, because she was busy playing it safe. I don't think she will ever have another shot at a major international title and will even have a hard time getting on the podium moving forwards because the younger skaters from the US and Russia are too superior to her.

Wagner is acting like the quality of her skating is on the level of the top contenders and simply "not falling" is enough to score high. It does not work that way.

And I hate the way she skates literally across the rink just to go into her 3F/3T. Is all of that telegraphing really necessary, seriously?

Also, wasn't Ashley singing a completely different tune when she won Nationals last year with that disastrous Free Skate, and acting "baller" when she got on the Olympic team due to her "body of work?" She was barely better than Polina Edmunds here, and only because the judges hosed Edmunds in components (and GoE) for being young and new.

If the quality of Sotnikova's skating is OGM worthy, then so is Ashley's, IMO.

 

[HalfTriple]

i just think it's wrong to say something like that, just like it is also wrong to to rig the competition.

Not only in free, but in short as well; it wasn't three-tie race form the beginning. it was artificial set-up by judges. In free, it couldn't have been more decisive. Please refer to my earlier postings.

 

[whatif]

The only controversial thing about what Wagner said is that she actually believed she was in contention for a medal. She actually seems kind of bigger that she is behind Gracie Gold simply because Gracie Gold fell in an otherwise outstanding performance. Even with the fall, Gracie deserved to be a good 10 points ahead of Wagner who skates around like she has ankle weights on.

Wagners best chance for a major international title or medal was in that weak field in 2012 when Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva weren't eligible, Lipnitskaya was still in diapers, Gold was still a Junior, Kim was absent, and Mao was having serious issues, among other things. That was her best chance.

She didn't capitalize on it then, because she was busy playing it safe. I don't think she will ever have another shot at a major international title and will even have a hard time getting on the podium moving forwards because the younger skaters from the US and Russia are too superior to her.

Wagner is acting like the quality of her skating is on the level of the top contenders and simply "not falling" is enough to score high. It does not work that way.

And I hate the way she skates literally across the rink just to go into her 3F/3T. Is all of that telegraphing really necessary, seriously?

Also, wasn't Ashley singing a completely different tune when she won Nationals last year with that disastrous Free Skate, and acting "baller" when she got on the Olympic team due to her "body of work?" She was barely better than Polina Edmunds here, and only because the judges hosed Edmunds in components (and GoE) for being young and new.

I agree she sound bitter but her actual recommendations about what needs to change are not so off.

 

[sk8in]

But I am also puzzled by some of the comments here. So the only reason Adelina should not have won is that she by definition could not have PCS at the same level as Kim, Carolina, or Mao. In fact she should be 6 points below?
Well then my next question is why do we need to have this competition if from the starting point she can skate lights out but still she, or anyone else not named Kim, Mao or Carolina, would never win against the three?
It does not make sense to me. Or can somebody explain to me what would one need to do to win against the triumvirate, hope for them to fall? wait for them to retire? Or maybe have segregate the contenders into categories from the start based on their PCS abilities?
I am just curious.

Mao landed 7 triples, including the axle, which only a few women have every done in competition. Yuna did 2 lutz and one flip. Adelina did one lutz, two flips. The lutz is a harder jump than the flip, and Adelina's second flip had poor execution. That is not a "lights out" performance. It is a sloppy one, and indicative of poorer technique.

Like Mao, Adelina did 7 jumps. Unlike Mao, she didn't have an Axle, but instead had a Toe Loop---an easier jump. Her GOM's were higher than Yuna Kim's despite her poor posture, and she had hugely inflated component scores. Costner, who is the most held up as the most graceful skater on the ice---with the best choreographed program by far, had a lower component score than Adelina. The Russian judges rigged the scoring in favor of a Russian skater. There is nothing more to it.

 

[Beure]

What? I'm not saying anything like that. All I mean is that there's no reason for Julia to suddenly make mistakes like that especially since she's never made them before, not even in the team event when she was arguably under greater or equal pressure.

So could the fact that she had to skate first after the warm-up when she's never had to before have caused the fall? And then could skating first combined with the fall from the short have caused the fall and the step-out.

In case it's not clear, I'm mostly grasping at straws here because I don't understand what suddenly happened that caused these mistakes.

When you asked, "Anyone else think this is more than a coincidence" I thought you were fishing for conspiracies since it seems to be the prevailing theme. My sincerest apologies.

 

[Angryyew]

Oh, I don't think so, not at all. If you read the article, the two changes she suggests are (1) eliminate anonymous judging and (2) increase the penalty for falls so that clean programs are valued over flawed ones. (1) is in the works already and will probably be implemented next spring. (2) is a matter of on-going debate -- I think the majority of fans agree that there ought to be a way to reward clean programs better, but we can't agree on the details of how best to do it.

Ashley skated great in the LP. She could easily have got fifth. (I thought the same about Rachael Flatt in 2010.)

Her remarks about favoritism toward Russian skaters was pretty mild -- most posts on this board are far more direct.

I don't disagree about eliminating anonymous judging or increasing the penalty for not skating clean, but I get the strong impression that Ashley thinks her performances were much better than they actually were.

She skated better than she did at Nationals and about as well as she has all season, but while she didn't fall, she didn't skate clean either. She two footed and possibly under-rotated her 3/3 in both programs and had other wobbly jump landings.

I'm all for skaters who truly skate clean being rewarded, but I don't like this trend of labeling flawed performances "clean" just because they didn't fall. I don't want to see someone two foot, UR and pop their way to an OGM any more than I want to see them fall.

I think the largest issue in FS scoring right now is inconsistent PCS scores, inconsistent calls on URs, edge violations, etc and not having technical errors that affect program quality reflected in PCS scores.

Personally, given that IMO FS is supposed to be an artistic sport and not athletic art, skaters should receive a score that accurately reflects the technical content and execution with some sort of positive or negative adjustment that reflects artistic merit, but doesn't totally negate technical merit rather than allowing PCS to totally eclipse TES and serve as a too easy way to manipulate results under the guise of "it's subjective."

 

[whatif]

Mao landed 7 triples, including the axle, which only a few women have every done in competition. Yuna did 2 lutz and one flip. Adelina did one lutz, two flips. The lutz is a harder jump than the flip, and Adelina's second flip had poor execution. That is not a "lights out" performance. It is a sloppy one, and indicative of poorer technique.

Like Mao, Adelina did 7 jumps. Unlike Mao, she didn't have an Axle, but instead had a Toe Loop---an easier jump. Her GOM's were higher than Yuna Kim's despite her poor posture, and she had hugely inflated component scores. Costner, who is the most held up as the most graceful skater on the ice---with the best choreographed program by far, had a lower component score than Adelina. The Russian judges rigged the scoring in favor of a Russian skater. There is nothing more to it.

OK, so you are saying that TES score is not justified.

 

[ginal]

If the quality of Sotnikova's skating is OGM worthy, then so is Ashley's, IMO.

 

[zschultz1986]

OK, so you are saying that TES score is not justified.

We're saying EVERY LEVER the judges could have raised to get Adelina more points was raised. Some were more recognizable than others (PCS inflation) but they were ALL inflated.