What did Sotnikova do wrong?

[Barb]

Kim doesn't deserve a lot of the GOE that she has historically gotten on her jumps, and especially not on her spins or spirals.

Kim does 6 crossovers into her opening combo, and after the crossovers she does a back edge pull and then some back cross strokes. That's all. There is literally no transitions/clear steps going in and out of that combo, no delay in rotations, no variation in position (Rip Lutz, Tano Lutz). That combo should get +2 GOE Max. The fact that she skates around in predominately one direction doing crossovers for a fair bit of the program should impact her TR and SS PCS scores. A less-reputable skater who skated Kim's program exactly as she skated it would struggle to break 8s for SS and TR with the way that program is structured, and getting 6 Bullets for a +3 on that combo clearly shows the judges are frequently willing to forego the criteria and simply smash "+3" simply because she did a decent combination. There are clear criteria for awarding GOE to jumps, and a lot of her jumps simply aren't meeting enough of the criteria to get a +3 yet the judges have continued to throw them at her... There is no explanation for this other than: Reputation.

Adelina does 2-3 crossovers and transitions/choreo straight into her opening 3-3, with basically no hesitation.

On Kim's triple flip, she does some crossovers, and then a Mohawk (one of the easiest transitions), steps forwards and glides into a hugely telegraphed triple flip. Again, it's simply criminal to give that +3 GOE if you're going by the criteria. Kim also telegraphs the crap out of her 3F in the SP, which makes me wonder why she gets such high GOE when she has no clear steps directly preceeding the jump, which the requirements call for...

Adelina does Mohawk-Choctaw-Counter straight into her triple flip with barely any hesitation. Before going into it, she skates (with transitions and choreo) in both directions. She also does choreo out of the jump, which counts as a transition.

That's how Sotnikova's program works the system - you can see this throughout the program. Look at the skating into, out of, and between the elements. Kim's GOEs have historically been inflated, but people never really questioned it because she's always stood up on her programs or had such huge leads going into the FS that it didn't even matter - that, or her competitors faltered. Additionally, she's a veteran and she's been getting this type of PCS for a while and she has been smart about only showing up when she was ready to the few major competitions she's competed in in the past few years, so there is not much variation in her performances... Her PCS skyrocketed quite a bit leading up to Vancouver and ever since then the judges have been unwilling to score her programs based on how they were structured and skated, because they simply carried forward the status quo. Her program from 2013 Worlds was magical, but her protocol was a joke.

These programs were not on the same level as her 2013 or 2010 programs. There is a clear difference between even her 2009 Worlds FS and this one. She had two times as many transitions in that program, way more choreo and expression. It isn't even comparable. These programs were "easy skates" for Yuna Kim, and she probably needed them to be easy because she wasn't competing that much and probably does not have the same level of stamina that she had back then.

These YNK programs were cleverly designed to coast to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win and some of the easiest in-between skating of the competition in the top 12-14 skaters. They were designed to maximize her chances of going clean and bank on her reputation.

The question should not be why Sotnikova is suddenly getting massive PCS.

The question should be why skaters with well-balanced IJS programs are struggling to get high PCS while veterans that take coffee breaks or speed skate through their programs are awarded ridiculous marks. This has always been a problem with the "second mark" in skating. In 6.0 as well as in IJS, and in both cases the only way for an upstart skater to win was for the judges to suddenly inflate their second mark past what they were "allowed" to obtain previous to give them the win.

People on this thread are seriously expecting Sotnikova to get PCS at the level of Miki Ando when she won her last world title, which is a laughing stock.

You have some very good points, in fact it would be interesting like someone mentioned in another forum to watch the same program with same music skated for all skaters, i know it wont happen because it would be boring, but for me it would be interesting to watch the real differences between skaters, it is not fair for skaters with little money to have poorer coreography for example.

 

[Mrs. P]

heck, I did 4 years of Latin in high school, and four more in college. In fact, the Classics dept. helped fund my pursuit of a completely unrelated major Never tell me that it doesn't pay to take Latin.

IBM thanks your classics department, right?

I kid about the Latin. It was actually quite valuable and came in handy in many instances.

 

[Skater Boy]

What did Adelina do wrong. Seh unfortunately for her won OGM in Russia against several skaters with huge and loud fans. she skated her big tricks unexpectedly well and wowed the judges that is what she did wrong. If there is a conspiracy then she won at the wrong time. I know what my mom would do with all this fighting, whining, complaining. Well children if you can't play nicely thent ehre will be no more skating in the olympics. solves that problem.

 

[vegarin]

Last I checked, Adelina WON the Olympics. So why are you complaining that Adelina was held down? She wasn't and hasn't been. She's had 2 seasons as a full senior on the international level. She is a multiple time Russian national champion. She was being heralded in 2010 as one of the Russian superbabies, written about on Goldenskate itself. She represents a powerful skating federation. She had a reputation when she debuted on the senior GP in 2011.

There is no justification whatsoever that Adelina was held down for reasons like lacking "maturity" as you say. Adelina has been held back by NOTHING her own inconsistent record. She did NOT deliver at 2013 Worlds. She skated well-enough for her worlds debut, but she didn't outjump, outskate, or out-perform the veterans on the podium, or even fellow newbies like Kaetlyn Osmond, Zijun Li, and Gracie Gold. She was behind all of them. So yeah, you need to stop parroting that Adelina or other newbies have been unfairly held down. Adelina couldn't even beat the newbies at 2013 Worlds (and she got the highest PCS than those newbies, so again, she was not held down in PCS).

Had Adelina skated more consistently these past 2 seasons, her PCS would've gone up sooner. Simple as that. Adelina has been held back by nothing but her relative inconsistency, not because of those "veterans".

Ditto. If Adelina did better in the last worlds, PCS would've gone accordingly.

De gustibus non est disputandum

I admit it -- I had to google it.

 

[WeakAnkles]

God, WA! Why you got to be using Latin to make us all look DUMB. Seriously, WA, you are a piece of work.

(An aside: I took two years of Latin because my teacher said I would do better on the SAT. WHAT A BUNCH OF LIES!!!)

LOL. I used to be on a poetry board, where there were these CONSTANT battles between people who loved free verse and people who loved metrical/formal verse. Much more vicious than what I've seen here. And a very wise older poet (who, like me, loved both types of poetry) used that phrase. And it's right.

I'm sorry Nater but i cannot disagree with you more. It has ZERO to do with holding someone down to prop up someone else. One of the best choreographed programs I've ever seen is Susanna Rahkamo and Petri Kokko "Finlandia," the highlight of which is a straight line sequence consisting of nothing but three drops to one knee performed in tandem. Gorgeous, utterly musical, ruthlessly memorable. Jason Brown, about as newbie as one can get in the senior ranks, had two of the best choreographed programs of the year. So did uber veteran Carolina Kostner. It has nothing whatsoever to do with holding down or propping up. I find Sotnikova to be a fabulous technician, but her choreography to be, so to speak, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

And ultimately that's just my taste. YMMV and your taste may as well. De gustibus non est dispatandum.

 

[Mrs. P]

LOL. I used to be on a poetry board, where there were these CONSTANT battles between people who loved free verse and people who loved metrical/formal verse. Much more vicious than what I've seen here. And a very wise older poet (who, like me, loved both types of poetry) used that phrase. And it's right.

I'm sorry Nater but i cannot disagree with you more. It has ZERO to do with holding someone down to prop up someone else. One of the best choreographed programs I've ever seen is Susanna Rahkamo and Petri Kokko "Finlandia," the highlight of which is a straight line sequence consisting of nothing but three drops to one knee performed in tandem. Gorgeous, utterly musical, ruthlessly memorable. Jason Brown, about as newbie as one can get in the senior ranks, had two of the best choreographed programs of the year. So did uber veteran Carolina Kostner. It has nothing whatsoever to do with holding down or propping up. I find Sotnikova to be a fabulous technician, but her choreography to be, so to speak, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

And ultimately that's just my taste. YMMV and your taste may as well. De gustibus non est dispatandum.

I'm sorry

People getting vicious over poetry?! Well I can sort of see that....writers are the most neurotic people EVER. (I speak as one, I guess...)

Actually the thing with Adelina that I'm clueless about is why they gave her such terribly-choreographed programs this season. She actually has some lovely qualities -- pointed toes, extension, decent fluidity....why did they give her a program that essentially hides all those things?

Her junior version of her FS this year is actually decent...I mean obviously here she still has some work to do and her jumps are better now, but at least the quality of her skating is much more apparent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeXXrxjNXtA

 

[Blades of Passion]

No, you don't celebrate new skaters.

You hold them down and use ******** like "maturity" as a reason to justify the judges lowballing their PCS scores so that your beloved "veterans" can continue to wrack up titles with much simpler and less risky programs while speed skating around in between jumps doing nothing but looking bored.

Do you have any idea what choreography and interpretation are?

Veterans almost always have better musicality and finesse in their movements because they've been doing it longer. This is certainly true of Yu-na's performance with how she does movements directly TO the music and has a clearer sense of purpose and sharpness in her body movements. Throwing a few counter turns into your program may give more transitions, but it doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the PCS.

 

[vegarin]

LOL. I used to be on a poetry board, where there were these CONSTANT battles between people who loved free verse and people who loved metrical/formal verse. Much more vicious than what I've seen here. And a very wise older poet (who, like me, loved both types of poetry) used that phrase. And it's right.

Oh hee, I can just picture it, the battle of wielding poetic devices between free verse lovers and metrical verse lovers. It would've been epic.

I do love your phrases and paraphrases. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, indeed.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Oh hee, I can just picture it, the battle of wielding poetic devices between free verse lovers and metrical verse lovers. It would've been epic.

I do love your phrases and paraphrases. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, indeed.

Thank you. It used to drive me crazy. I remember finally saying, Form is like a box. Boxes come in different shapes and sizes. On your birthday, do you save the box or the present? The form is the box; the poem is the present.

 

[Ophelia]

Last I checked, Adelina WON the Olympics. So why are you complaining that Adelina was held down? She wasn't and hasn't been. She's had 2 seasons as a full senior on the international level. She is a multiple time Russian national champion. She was being heralded in 2010 as one of the Russian superbabies, written about on Goldenskate itself. She represents a powerful skating federation. She had a reputation when she debuted on the senior GP in 2011.

There is no justification whatsoever that Adelina was held down for reasons like lacking "maturity" as you say. Adelina has been held back by NOTHING her own inconsistent record. She did NOT deliver at 2013 Worlds. She skated well-enough for her worlds debut, but she didn't outjump, outskate, or out-perform the veterans on the podium, or even fellow newbies like Kaetlyn Osmond, Zijun Li, and Gracie Gold. She was behind all of them. So yeah, you need to stop parroting that Adelina or other newbies have been unfairly held down. Adelina couldn't even beat the newbies at 2013 Worlds (and she got the highest PCS than those newbies, so again, she was not held down in PCS).

Had Adelina skated more consistently these past 2 seasons, her PCS would've gone up sooner. Simple as that. Adelina has been held back by nothing but her relative inconsistency, not because of those "veterans".

BOOM!

 

[CarneAsada]

Her junior version of her FS this year is actually decent...I mean obviously here she still has some work to do and her jumps are better now, but at least the quality of her skating is much more apparent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeXXrxjNXtA

I'd not even call it a "version" of this year's FS. I loathe the Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for personal reasons (I had the misfortune of playing it for a year and a half in middle school) but would take both the choreography and the music cuts of that generic-but-inoffensive FS over the souped-up mess that was her FS this year. And I like that she doesn't make the one-footed footwork requirement too obvious and labored. It's funny that she won Junior Worlds in Gangneung, Korea. I wonder how their reaction to her would be if they knew what would happen in 3 years.

 

[MalloryArcher]

maybe now they should attack Kansas and Arizona for their anti-gay bill laws

OK, first of all, the obvious - nether Kansas nor Arizona is hosting an Olympic Games.

Second of all - are you completely oblivious to all the criticism of state-level laws like this in the US?

Third - there are only so many Russian figure skating cheating scandals one can take. The Russian SF really just doesn't seem to care.

 

[MalloryArcher]

And Adelinaphobia.
I think a lot of people on here have it.

It's actually really insulting to compare homophobia, which drives people in Russia and elsewhere to actually kill others, with complaining about results of a figure skating competition. Really insulting and really dumb. You should be ashamed :no:

 

[Nater]

BOOM!

Consistency has nothing to do with components. You're kind of agreeing with me there. And if Yuna Skated Zijuns 2013 Worlds free skate she's have gotten a 150 score. That's my point.

 

[vegarin]

Thank you. It used to drive me crazy. I remember finally saying, Form is like a box. Boxes come in different shapes and sizes. On your birthday, do you save the box or the present? The form is the box; the poem is the present.

Right; and occasionally, a good packaging adds to the present, but the packaging itself cannot indicate the value of the present inside.

Love that we're talking poetry in a skating forum. Maybe this is too OT. Ahem. Moving on.

 

[Ophelia]

Consistency has nothing to do with components. You're kind of agreeing with me there. And if Yuna Skated Zijuns 2013 Worlds free skate she's have gotten a 150 score. That's my point.

Nah. Lower TES due to the program being less difficult, but PCS would've been higher for Kim executing it. If you're trying to pick an argument that Kim deserves the same PCS as Zijun, then that's laughable.

 

[Mathman]

That's why I like short programs. A short program is like a sonnet. First, it's short. Then, it has a prescribed number of elements strung together according to a fixed formula. :yes: I guess that would make the free skate more like Dr. Seuss.

 

[WeakAnkles]

That's why I like short programs. A short program is like a sonnet. First, it's short. Then, it has a prescribed number of elements strung together according to a fixed formula. :yes: I guess that would make the free skate more like Dr. Seuss.

I love Dr Seuss. Alas Suessical the Musical is uhm not great, so it probably wouldn't be a great music to skate to.

 

[vegarin]

That's why I like short programs. A short program is like a sonnet. First, it's short. Then, it has a prescribed number of elements strung together according to a fixed formula. :yes: I guess that would make the free skate more like Dr. Seuss.

Ahahaha. That parallel could definitely be made, though I agree with WeakAnkles that Dr. Seuss is a wonder, almost a genre onto its own.

 

[chuckm]

It's interesting that the only Senior event Adelina won until now (other than Russian Nationals) was 2011 Golden Spin. She is also the first Olympic ladies champion who has never stood on the World podium. That makes the sudden explosion of her PCS scores even more inexplicable.