Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[drivingmissdaisy]

I do not find the argument very convincing that goes, "Adelina's choreographer must have known the rules, therefore Adelina must have executed a level four sequence."

No, what I'm saying is that she must be attempting a level four sequence, as getting only 1 out of 3 steps right is (as YesWay pointed out) either (a) bad choreography or (b) a spectacular failure in execution.

 

[kslr0816]

When tech school and clarification memos to tech panel members push that it means 5 CW and 5 CCW and 3 CW and 3CCW and 3 sets of "clusters" for L4, then that is what is meant. As I stated when I cut and pasted the rules and the source, my coach IS a Regional TS and in designing her skaters' leveled steps (and in calling leveled steps at competitions), she makes sure it is 5/5 and 3/3 MINIMUM or else it doesn't get called. I suspect that if Sotnikova was trying to get a L4, either her bracket was supposed to be a counter or her counter was supposed to be a bracket (as those were the mis-matched turns).

There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.

don't worry - your posts are getting read - it's just that the adelina ubers have no counter to them

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

When tech school and clarification memos to tech panel members push that it means 5 CW and 5 CCW and 3 CW and 3CCW and 3 sets of "clusters" for L4, then that is what is meant. As I stated when I cut and pasted the rules and the source, my coach IS a Regional TS and in designing her skaters' leveled steps (and in calling leveled steps at competitions), she makes sure it is 5/5 and 3/3 MINIMUM or else it doesn't get called. I suspect that if Sotnikova was trying to get a L4, either her bracket was supposed to be a counter or her counter was supposed to be a bracket (as those were the mis-matched turns).

There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.

So a regional TS is who choreographs designs L4 steps for her students and yet there's a possibility that Adelina's team planned level 3 for her? You really think her SS are awful.

 

[capcomeback]

When tech school and clarification memos to tech panel members push that it means 5 CW and 5 CCW and 3 CW and 3CCW and 3 sets of "clusters" for L4, then that is what is meant. As I stated when I cut and pasted the rules and the source, my coach IS a Regional TS and in designing her skaters' leveled steps (and in calling leveled steps at competitions), she makes sure it is 5/5 and 3/3 MINIMUM or else it doesn't get called. I suspect that if Sotnikova was trying to get a L4, either her bracket was supposed to be a counter or her counter was supposed to be a bracket (as those were the mis-matched turns).

There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.

I like your latter explanation. I would seem likely based upon the fact that she had not gotten Level 4 on her programs all season. This way. she would not have had her choreography changed to work in the extra turns. It still begs the question why the tech panel failed so epically here. Is this a case where there just not enough eyes on what's happening on the ice?

 

[YesWay]

I am willing to accept mskater93's corroboration of BoP's interpretation of the rules. This is helpful.

Now is there anyone who can verify that BoP spotted and counted everything up correctly, and therefore Adelinas steps were indeed only level 3? mskater93? zamboni step? Oh go on! :-D

Assuming no issues there - it would become irrelevant why she only did level3 steps on the night... all that would be left would be: how come the judges gave her level4?

But I still don't think there is any conclusion to be drawn on that (cheating, incompetence, whatever)... without similar analysis of other skaters. (Only Adelina receiving such benefit would be highly suspicious... multiple skaters getting the same boost for similar deficiencies might point to a general leniency rather than bias, random boosts might point to incompetence... etc).

 

[capcomeback]

So a regional TS is who choreographs designs L4 steps for her students and yet there's a possibility that Adelina's team planned level 3 for her? You really think her SS are awful.

You are making it sound like Adelina is skating these elements in a vacuum (as opposed to a vacuum cleaner, lol). It's one thing to be skating L4 footwork sequences. It's another thing to do them AND incorporate complicated 3-3's along with multiple triple jumps, difficult spins etc. I'm sure that isn't happening a lot at most local rinks.

I'm a layman when it comes to this, but does this make sense Mskater93 (and others who actually skate on other surface other than frozen ponds, lol)?

 

[ILuvYuna]

the choreographer did not just suddenly discover the rules last month.

^This.

she had not gotten Level 4 on her programs all season.

^
This.

There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.

^And this, make the most sense to me, so far...

It still begs the question why the tech panel failed so epically here.

how come the judges gave her level4?

 

[Mathman]

To tell the truth, I am not up in arms over this. There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography. We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.

As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.

 

[capcomeback]

Just deleted my inane response, lol

Seriously, it's just more fodder that indicates that Adelina perhaps was scored more favorably than she should have been.

 

[ILuvYuna]

There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography.

I agree with you. I think they definitely worked on making this sequence more crowd-pleasing. You can see the differences in this video -- it shows her Olympic free skate side-by-side with the one at TEB. Aesthetically, I prefer the stsq from the Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TESfQwyXvI

We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.

True, but being that's it's a required skill, there are GOE points that go along with it, and factor into the total score.

Y: L3BV 3.30 + GOE 1.14 = 4.44
A: L4BV 3.90 + GOE 1.70 = 5.60

Imo, 1.24 is a significant bite out of the margin of victory, and remember that Yuna had yet to skate, so I'm not really buying the argument about the bv being too insignificant to bother w/inflation. Points are points.

As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too.

Which is why - even if nothing can be proven - I don't see how cheating can be ruled out either. Humans are frail, and the judges are only human. :sarcasm:

 

[verysmuchso]

To tell the truth, I am not up in arms over this. There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography. We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.

As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.

Level calls must or can also affect the judges' perception of the quality of execution, in other words, GOE. So the impact on the score may not be just 0.6 points.
OK I see that I♥Yuna has already addressed this point.

 

[Mathman]

As I understand it, the judges do not know what level has been called when they key in the GOE. Isn't this right?

Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.

 

[Blades of Passion]

As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.

"Oops, sorry I ruined your life dream."

There's absolutely no reason anything should be missed with the high-def replays available to them. You either know what you're doing or you don't. There are tough calls to be made on whether or not a jump should be called underrotated, or a spin position should count, or a step should count, but there should certainly not be anything "missing" from the picture.

And in this case the calls were not tough with Sotnikova. She clearly had an underrotated jump and she clearly had a Level 3 step sequence. She's even had a history of making these mistakes (of always making this mistake, ie - a technique problem, in the case of the 3Lutz+3Toe combo).

Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.

Unfortunately that's not how the sport is being judged right now. One of the many big problems that needs to be fixed. Sotnikova's sloppy step sequence received massive +GOE and her Choreography score was the highest of the competition. :disapp:

 

[verysmuchso]

As I understand it, the judges do not know what level has been called when they key in the GOE. Isn't this right?

Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.

Well the judges are aware of edge calls when they key in the GOE and reflect them in the GOE. I'd surprised if only edge calls are communicated and not spin or step sequence levels.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well the judges are aware of edge calls when they key in the GOE and reflect them in the GOE. I'd surprised if only edge calls are communicated and not spin or step sequence levels.

Don't the judges grade the element (GOE)and the tech panel makes edge deductions and rotation issues completely independent of each other? Without communication.

For instance judge A could give a skater a +3 GOE for a spin and have no idea what level of it is awarded(but could probably make an assumption).

 

[usethis2]

The circumstances also belie the notion of tech panel's "incompetency." To the contrary, the tech panel was exceedingly competent in getting what they wanted.

In the SP: Adelina receives lvl 4, everyone else lvl 3
In the FS: All the top contenders received lvl 4 except for Yuna who received lvl 3.

 

[verysmuchso]

Don't the judges grade the element (GOE)and the tech panel makes edge deductions and rotation issues completely independent of each other? Without communication.

Apparently as of 2007 (based on a 2007 post on GS), if the technical panel calls a change of edge, for example, the judges are required to give negative GOE; which points to the existence of communication between the tech panel and the judges.

 

[gkelly]

Level calls must or can also affect the judges' perception of the quality of execution, in other words, GOE.

No, judges DO NOT KNOW THE LEVEL CALLS when they award their GOEs. They might guess that the sequence looks complex enough for level 4; if they are also technical specialists or controllers they might count the steps to themselves by habit; but they do not know how this technical panel at this competition called this step sequence. In awarding their GOEs they can only be influenced by what they themselves see.

OK, here's what I saw for the steps. I'm not going to look back at what BoP called until after I post them.

RFI double three CCW
brief turned-out two-foot glide (technically an Ina Bauer? doesn't count as a step)
RBI choctaw CW
RFO twizzle CW
tap-toe CCW
RFI rocker CCW
RBI-RBO edge change CCW-CW
RBO three CCW
RFI double three (or slow twizzle) CCW
brief wide step/Ina to LBI choctaw CW
RFO loop CW
RFO three CW
RBI choctaw CCW
LFO illusion CCW
toe steps CW
RFO rocker CW
RBO counter CW (the free leg action and the camera angle makes it hard to see exactly what she's doing on my VHS tape of the NBCSN broadcast; the nbcolympics.com has a different camera angle but the website doesn't play very smoothly for me, but as far as I can tell it's a counter)
RFO counter CCW (clearly comes out on a RBO edge but free foot comes down immediately after, so a strict caller might not count it)
RBO mohawk CCW
LFO loop CCW
tap toe CW
LFI rocker CW
LBI rocker CCW
LFI bracket CW
some crossover steps that don't count, but there is an RBI-RBO edge change CW-CCW
crossover
RBI double three CW (or possibly RBI rocker, shallow edge change, RFO three)

So it might mean being generous on the gray areas (the second twizzle?), but I can see how a caller could give her credit for threes, rockers, twizzles, loops, and counters in both directions, as well as toe steps (if those hops count as steps), choctaws, and edge changes in both directions.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

VHS TAPE????

Be careful...VCR's eat tapes all the time.

 

[gkelly]

Just to clarify, for those who are confused:

Judges get to see the e calls and < and << calls on the jumps after the program is over and before they send their marks.

They do not get to see the level calls.

And yes, Sam-Skwantch, I have a VCR/DVD player that's about 8 years old and I never did figure out how to record on DVDs so if I want to make a recording I make it on tape.