Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[drivingmissdaisy]

If Adelina got called on an under rotation for her 3T, I have no idea.

That wouldn't affect the difference, because if Adelina's 3T was called < Yuna's second 3Lz would have been too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

Stop the video at 6:39 and her jump was clearly more than 1/4 short, which probably explains the swinging free leg on the landing. Her second 3S may have been as well but I haven't seen a slow-mo video of it.

 

[Alex D]

That wouldn't affect the difference, because if Adelina's 3T was called < Yuna's second 3Lz would have been too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

Stop the video at 6:39 and her jump was clearly more than 1/4 short, which probably explains the swinging free leg on the landing. Her second 3S may have been as well but I haven't seen a slow-mo video of it.

Very well spotted my friend, I saw this as well and wondered why nobody else said a word about this yet. Now you took away the cliffhanger from my article (just kidding).
On a more serious note, I think that if people want to find a flaw in either Adelina´s or Kims program, then they will. This is FS and there will always be elements that could go either this or that way.

For the open minded and un biased skating fan, finding something on both sites would be possible, but since everyone likes Yuna and somehow dislikes Sotnikova people only speak about the Russian, which I find sad.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That wouldn't affect the difference, because if Adelina's 3T was called < Yuna's second 3Lz would have been too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

Stop the video at 6:39 and her jump was clearly more than 1/4 short, which probably explains the swinging free leg on the landing. Her second 3S may have been as well but I haven't seen a slow-mo video of it.

Just Wow. That UR should be held to the same criticism that Adelina's jumps receive. It's as disruptive to the jump as any egregious flutz I've seen. Paused @ 6:40 I noticed that:

1)crowd should not be chanting RU-see-Ya

2) That is a UR jump. When I paused at the exact moment the toe pick made contact it was more than 45 degrees and then she slide almost another 180 degrees out of the landing. Worthy of the +3 GOE one judge awarded her? How this isn't at least equal to a flutz call is perplexing to me if in fact the rules don't call for it. I believe it could be called "lacking rotation"(no sign) under ISU guidelines: page 3-right column-second line.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf

If we're gonna nitpick Sotnikova on her jumps then we need to hold Yuna to the same review. It's only fair. :yes:

I'm sure that anyone claiming they want fair judging will agree to that. I mean the same judge that scored Yuna two 10's gave her a +2 for this Outlier or not. That is just as suspicious as any Sochi scoring!

 

[sk8in]

That wouldn't affect the difference, because if Adelina's 3T was called < Yuna's second 3Lz would have been too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

Stop the video at 6:39 and her jump was clearly more than 1/4 short, which probably explains the swinging free leg on the landing. Her second 3S may have been as well but I haven't seen a slow-mo video of it.

It is not more than 1/4th. At 6:40 her blade is just touching down on the ice and it is about 45 degrees from full rotation. She lost control of the landing, and her blade swung around instead of gliding back.

Compare to Sotnikova's 3T: http://youtu.be/CrVL5tM926s?t=6m36s It is not even close to fully rotated. She has a well controlled landing, but her blade touches down facing the camera... meaning she was almost half a rotation short, let alone 45 or 90 degrees.

 

[jaylee]

2) That is a UR jump. When I paused at the exact moment the toe pick made contact it was more than 45 degrees and then she slide almost another 180 degrees out of the landing. Worthy of the +3 GOE one judge awarded her? How this isn't at least equal to a flutz call is perplexing to me if in fact the rules don't call for it. I believe it could be called "lacking rotation"(no sign) under ISU guidelines: page 3-right column-second line.

Um, slightly underrotating is not equal to a flutz call because they're not the same kind of errors at all. Have no idea why you're calling for equality on errors.

Why are you pausing the instant that the toe pick makes contact with the ice versus when the blade makes full contact with the ice? If you apply that level of scrutiny to any other ladies skaters, more of their jumps would be considered underrotated versus Yuna's. I guarantee it. No one would be exempt. By the time Yuna's blade is on the ice with the full weight on it, she's fully rotated and well within the 1/4 allowance, but even the toe pick touch starts at the border of 1/4 allowance and skaters can be given the benefit of the doubt.

Yuna barely pre-rotates her lutz at all, maybe a 1/4 at most, while many ladies, flutz or no, pre-rotate their lutz up to a full half-turn, so even accounting for a slight UR on the landing of this one, she's rotating as much as they are in the air. Go take a look at Yulia Lipnitskaia's lutz in slow-mo and compare how much she pre-rotates her lutz versus how much Yuna pre-rotates before they take-off. I saw it on the NBC replay site in HD and the difference is immense. And Yulia's not the only one. Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi regularly pre-rotated their lutz up to a 1/2 turn. Yuna is unusual for NOT pre-rotating as much. That's why you hear the comment that she jumps "like the men".

It absolutely wasn't worthy of a +3, but that was only one so luckily it didn't count. The majority of the judges (5/9) gave her a +1. Since usually Yuna can earn +2/+3 for her solo lutz, it's clear most did take the imperfect landing into account.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I was referring to the nearly 180 degree skid on landing being equal IMHO to the disturbance in a jump caused by a flutz and maybe should warrant equal if not at least similar penalty as a flutz. Not just for Yuna but for all skaters. I don't think that's unfair and I don't know if it's addressed in the ISU guidelines. That was all . Maybe there should be flutz,lip,and now flotation (which is a nearly 180 skid on your landing). I maybe joking around but it's a serious question. If you need to take off on a clear edge then why be allowed to land on unpronounced gliding edges?

It's pretty close on the UR. Have to admit that. She does get near 45 when the blade starts to touch so for me..,meh. I'm not as critical as some. It just seems Yuna received quite generous scores herself and no one seems to be challenging those scores. Sometimes you gotta take the plunge and play devils advocate to know how you truely feel. Sochi judging...I'm over it. For every skater in the event. There are at least 5 judges for Adelina and Yuna that I'm sure someone had to break out the ammonia and deep clean the seats when all was said and done.

Yulia's flexibility does allow a bit extra pre-rotation with the body. Her feet are pretty close at times to going too far but shes not alone in this as you pointed out. Her flutz is just . I've never disputed her jumps. No need. They're cute the way they are they just don't score well.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It is not more than 1/4th. At 6:40 her blade is just touching down on the ice and it is about 45 degrees from full rotation. She lost control of the landing, and her blade swung around instead of gliding back.

Not true. I can e-mail a series of three screenshots I took from 6:39-6:40 if you'd like. Her pick touches down at about 135 degrees short and the blade is even completely flat short of 90 degrees. Send me a PM and I can send the images to you if you'd like and we can compare what we see.

 

[jaylee]

I was referring to the nearly 180 degree skid on landing being equal IMHO to the disturbance in a jump caused by a flutz and maybe should warrant equal if not at least similar penalty as a flutz. Not just for Yuna but for all skaters. I don't think that's unfair and I don't know if it's addressed in the ISU guidelines. That was all . Maybe they should be flutz,lip,and now flotation (which is a nearly 180 skid on your landing). I maybe joking around but it's a serious question.

It's pretty close on the UR. Have to admit that. She does get near 45 when the blade starts to touch so for me..,meh. I'm not as critical as some. It just seems Yuna received quite generous scores herself and no one seems to be challenging those scores. Sometimes you gotta take the plunge and play devils advocate to know how you truely feel. Sochi judging...I'm over it. For every skater in the event. There are at least 5 judges for Adelina and Yuna that I'm sure someone had to break out the ammonia and deep clean the seats when all was said and done.

If a skater stays upright, doesn't two-foot the landing, isn't off-balance, controls the landing, and even shows nice extension of the free leg on landing, then I'm not sure how you can call for the skater to be punished more than -1, particularly since there are so many other errors that cause more of a disruption. Yuna *did* lose GOE for the landing per what she normally gets.

I don't agree that Yuna's lutz was underrotated enough to merit a UR call, but let's say it was--that's ONE generous call for Yuna versus how many generous calls for Adelina? The flutz, the 3T UR, the footwork levels in both the SP and the FS, the negative GOE for her two-footed sloppy landing on the 3F combo. That's not even including way too generous positive GOE for Adelina.

The scores should've been close between the two and they weren't, producing a flabbergasting, undeserved margin of victory for one. We'll never know what the result would've been had all the calls and scoring been made objectively and with honest intentions. And that's a darn shame.

Yulia's flexibility does allow a bit extra pre-rotation with the body. Her feet are pretty close at times to going too far but shes not alone in this as you pointed out. Her flutz is just . I've never disputed her jumps. No need. Their cute the way they are they just don't score well.

Yulia's flexibility has nothing to do with allowing the extra pre-rotation. That's just how she jumps.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

For the open minded and un biased skating fan, finding something on both sites would be possible, but since everyone likes Yuna and somehow dislikes Sotnikova people only speak about the Russian, which I find sad.

The more important issue is that, if they Tech Panel was intentionally trying to be harsh on Yuna, the 3Lz was close enough that it could have been < with little controversy, as we see jumps like that downgraded all the time. There were obviously some missed calls in the FS but, like you said, if Adelina was marked down for her errors Yuna would have been too.

 

[jaylee]

Not true. I can e-mail a series of three screenshots I took from 6:39-6:40 if you'd like. Her pick touches down at about 135 degrees short and the blade is even completely flat short of 90 degrees. Send me a PM and I can send the images to you if you'd like and we can compare what we see.

If you're claiming that her pick touches down at about 135 degrees short, the point at which you are using as her jumping-off point is ridiculous. The point at which you start to pre-rotate counts towards the jump's total rotation--otherwise, why would it be in the rules that you can pre-rotate up to 1/2 turn?

Whatever, it's been clear from the beginning that you and a few others are just obsessed with inventing errors for Yuna.

 

[jenaj]

It is not more than 1/4th. At 6:40 her blade is just touching down on the ice and it is about 45 degrees from full rotation. She lost control of the landing, and her blade swung around instead of gliding back.

Compare to Sotnikova's 3T: http://youtu.be/CrVL5tM926s?t=6m36s It is not even close to fully rotated. She has a well controlled landing, but her blade touches down facing the camera... meaning she was almost half a rotation short, let alone 45 or 90 degrees.

It's pretty close if not a full 1/4 short. But the results are what they are and are not going to change.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The scores should've been close between the two and they weren't, producing a flabbergasting, undeserved margin of victory for one. We'll never know what the result would've been had all the calls and scoring been made objectively and with honest intentions. And that's a darn shame.

. Absolutely agree. I've been saying that since day one!

Yulia's flexibility has nothing to do with allowing the extra pre-rotation. That's just how she jumps.

As long as her feet don't pass that 180 degree point it's good. Just saying she is quite bendy and she can corkscrew herself more than most other ladies. But we're getting off topic. I like Yulia the way she is. No need to go there.


Re: Adelina's two foot landing. Look at the GOE guidelines I provided earlier. If you take the entire combo into consideration and say Adelina was going to only get +1 GOE for the combo, lets face it, based on what she was getting that's probably low. Those judges were quite excited. So if she was getting a plus 1 going into the 2lo that landed in quick sand. Give her -3 for two footing and take it off of the +1 we've established and you wind up at -2GOE. She got that and some -1's on that jump. Maybe some judges were going to give her +2 for the combo. The GOE doesn't require the total score to be -3. Just that it is negative. I don't think those scores were given outside of GOE guidelines. I'd be comfortable giving it a -1 based on the wording in that document. On a personal level I'd score it a -3 and maybe a -2.

Edit- I've been questioning that document since I first laid eyes on it. I'm willing to be corrected if Im reading it wrong. I mean I'm willing to learn more if in fact there is something I'm missing.

 

[sk8in]

She couldn't control her landing because her full blade wasn't down on the ice past full rotation. If she had full blade short of 90 degrees she should have had a controlled landing. If you see the skate itself in slow mo---rather than the replay, you see she swung back 180 degrees after landing. In other words, she had a tight landing instead of just cheating the jump.
135 degrees would mean she touches down her toe facing forwards, which I honestly have no idea how you could perceive that. She jumps from a slight diagonal away from the camera shot (pointing below the upper left corner of the screen), and her toe lands just as its pointing towards the bottom left corner of the frame. At 140 degrees short of the full rotation she is completely airborne. The only way I think you could get 135 degrees is if you're using her turn out on landing as full rotation---which would be nuts.

 

[DarR]

Let's say skater A pulls off a quad toe triple toe of +3 GOE quality but he falls on the double loop in the 3 jump combo. Should we award him a 0 or -3?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

True. I'm merely using the rulebook at hand. I wouldn't be surprised to find a -2 on skater A's protocols. A fall should not be the same to me as a step out or two foot. That's just me. A fall cancels everything. A three jump combo with two good jumps and a two foot landing is a different beast IMHO. Caro got a -2 when she landed a jump on her back at Worlds so clearly it's happening.

 

[gkelly]

Let's say skater A pulls off a quad toe triple toe of +3 GOE quality but he falls on the double loop in the 3 jump combo. Should we award him a 0 or -3?

It should be -1.

For a fall, the GOE should be reduced by 3 steps from what it would have been without the fall, and the final GOE needs to be negative.

If the jump combo already had six positive bullet points and deserved +3 before the fall, after you reduce by -3 you end up at 0.

But that's not a legal GOE for an element with a fall -- it's required to be negative. So go with the closest negative increment, which is -1.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If you're claiming that her pick touches down at about 135 degrees short, the point at which you are using as her jumping-off point is ridiculous. The point at which you start to pre-rotate counts towards the jump's total rotation--otherwise, why would it be in the rules that you can pre-rotate up to 1/2 turn?

I think the pre-rotation and landing position are different issues; you have to meet both requirements and cannot make up one for the other. Otherwise, you could over-rotate a toe axel and make it a perfectly acceptable toe loop and that does not happen. You can pre-rotate a 1/4 or a 1/2 but you still have to be within a 1/4 turn on the landing.

 

[jaylee]

You can pre-rotate a 1/4 or a 1/2 but you still have to be within a 1/4 turn on the landing.

That's not my issue with your post. My issue is regarding what you're using as the starting point for the jump and the ending point. Where does the jump begin? Yes, you CAN pre-rotate 1/4 or up to 1/2 turn, and the pre-rotation counts towards the jump's rotation, which means the point at which they start to pre-rotate is the starting point for the jump, and that's where the landing point has to be within 90 degrees of.

The only way you can argue that Yuna's toe pick touches down on the ice at more than 90 degrees is if you're EXCLUDING the pre-rotation on the ice from the jump and using a starting point of the jump for when she's actually fully in the air. That's not right because pre-rotation counts towards the jump's rotation.

If you're not counting pre-rotation as counting towards the jump's rotation, then Yulia Lipnitskaia and Satoko Miyahara should never get a triple lutz ratified again. Both skaters pre-rotate their lutz a LOT.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That's not my issue with your post. My issue is regarding what you're using as the starting point for the jump and the ending point. Where does the jump begin? Yes, you CAN pre-rotate 1/4 or up to 1/2 turn, and the pre-rotation counts towards the jump's rotation, which means the point at which they start to pre-rotate is the starting point for the jump, and that's where the landing point has to be within 90 degrees of.

Let's assume that Yuna's lutz prerotated 1/4, which is fair based on the video; the take off was very well done. Your argument means that she can be 179 degrees shy of the direction of the landing with no penalty (basically completing a half turn on ice to get her body backwards), because her take-off wasn't as pre-rotated as Julia. I don't believe this is how jumps are (or should be) evaluated, mainly because different jumps have different levels of prerotation. Salchows and toe loops are typically going to pre-rotate more than a lutz; ideally all these jumps should finish without the blade turning more than a 1/4 turn on the ice regardless of the take-off or jump type.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yuna *did* lose GOE for the landing per what she normally gets

This isn't how it works. They don't say well Yuna usually gets a +3 or +2 and then subtract from there. Honestly a fair by the book judge would find it hard to justify more than +1 before subtracting the negatives. So lets reduce from +1 shall we. If we site "lacking rotation" (no sign) -1 and not the more severe "under rotation" (sign <) which calls for -1 or even -2. We end up at 0 if we go by the book. These are not to be confused with "one or more revolution than required" which calls for -3 GOE.

This is a by the book approach which isn't required. The judges can say Yuna landed that jump and satisfied only two bullets and still give +3 GOE to start. It's called judges discretion and it is allowed under ISU guidelines. They could then subract only 1 point as it appears some did, right. Putting us back at +2 or +1 but if we don't want to allow them such freedoms with Adelina why should we with Yuna. That is what should be in question. A fair approach used similarly for all.

Again it's really only a matter of a point or two but they do add up. If you take 6 points from Adelina and only one from Yuna's overall scores we are pretty much deadlocked which I think should have been the results myself. We are kind of just splitting hairs now.

Again, I'm no expert and have no shame in admitting if I'm reading them wrong. Willing to learn something here.