Folk ODs: Are skaters showing the "character" of the dance?

I have hugely enjoyed the folk OD's this year. The last time I remember a new dance (that wasn't a combination of previous dances) being picked to be an OD, it was 1982 and the dance was rock and roll. With the folk OD, so many new dances have been translated to the ice, that it is both astounding and wonderful. However, there's a fly in the soup:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=556

The guidelines for the folk OD from the ISU state that if the spins, step sequences, or lifts do not reflect the character of the dance, the GOE must be dropped by one grade. If a Spin, step sequence of lift does not fit to the phrasing of the music, the GOE must be reduced and must be a net minus.

Nancy Kerrigan, who commented on the OD at the US Nationals for ice network, apparently read these rules. As the event progressed, her voice expressed more and more scepticism about whether the hair cutter spin was truly an integral element of quite so many folk traditions She began to cite 'poetic license' as justification for the choreographers in a number of cases where the dance being done had some real discrepancies from the folk tradition being portrayed.

Every element must show the character of the dance, but with so many dances, how can the judges, not to mention the fans, possibly know the 'character' of all of them? I was watching the British Eurosport coverage of the Europeans when Nicky Slater & his commentary partner SImon, the long-time Eurosport commentators, agree: "Of course, all I know about Cossack dancing can be written on a postage stamp." Now Nicky has not only watched a lot of ice dance over the years he has worked for Eurosport. He competed for the UK in ice dance with his partner Karen Barber, finishing as high as fifth in 1983 and 1984. His mother, Joan Slater, is a Master Coach in ice dance & formerly coached the Kerrs.

http://www.olympics.org.uk/athletebio.aspx?at=6384

If Nicky doesn't know much about all these rhythms, who does? Not me, surely, but I decided to do a little research to help you judge whether your favorites are showing the character of the dance they are translating to the ice in every move, and how well they are doing it.

Over the next week or so, I will be posting links to youtube of the traditional dances and the associated OD's. I hope you'll all have fun watching them and will comment on what you see. I hope you'll add a lot of detail on dances that I really know very little about.

Quick Links to Different Folk Dances
Russian Gypsy
Flamenco
Use of a Prop
Kalinka
Ukrainian Folk Dances
Cossack Dance

North American Dances
British and Irish Dances
Italian and French Dances
Polkas
MidEastern Dances
Sirtaki (Greek Dances)
Miscellaneous (Indian, First Nations, African, Japanese)

The Revenge of The Russian Gypsies on Ice

I'm going to start with the type of dance that I know the least about, Russian gypsy. We have been treated to many Russian gypsy dances, even when the skaters are not Russian and not gypsies. However, this is easily explained. The skaters may not be Russian, but their coaches and/or choreographers are. It's no wonder that they chose to choreograph Russian gypsy dances. Only Weaver & Poje had a non-Russian coach & a non-Russian choreographer amongst all these Russian gypsy dances.

Nicky & SImon of Eurosport commented that the important element of gypsy dance is Passion. I leave you to judge whether that's true, and whether the skaters managed to portray passion. I attempted to find some Russian gypsy dances to show you, and came up with the following:

Julia Kulakova performs a Russian gypsy dance. In this dance I find several gypsy motifs that you will see transferred to the ice:
1. Much swishing of the skirt, and the use of a shawl as a prop
2. Clapping
3. Arms over the head while dancing
4. Snaky arm movements while shaking the chest
5. Hair shaking tricks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ctVf8Xs3A&feature=related

A Russian gypsy group performs at a wedding in NJ to Two Guitars. Apparently it is quite typical to have Russian gypsy bands at weddings. This isn't a great clip but it does show more skirt shaking, a lift, and a twizzle with arms (and a guitar) over the head. Quite promising material for our would be choreographers & dancers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU7HT2Y5dY8

Another version of Two Guitars at another wedding party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6m0zJ5z544&feature=related

Barynya is a group that performs Russian music and dance in the US. Here is a clip of their Via Romen group performing a Russian Gypsy Dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIuCittZqm0&feature=related
There is more skirt swishing & clapping by the women. The man in the piece is doing a jigging sort of step with flailing arms, jumps, and a low landing.

In fact, Russians in the US appear to like gypsy music and dance at their events. Here is a performance from the Nobility Ball. This is perhaps the best clip I have. It shows a rotational lift of sort, the men whacking their feet with their hands, and much skirt swishing. There is also a lot of kicking the feet out to the side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovao1doWeTw

So here's what our skaters came up with for Russian gypsy ODs:

Khoklova & Novitski, coached by Svinin, Two Guitars, at the GPF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nv-DK1Vopk

I particularly admire her lift where she jumps on his legs and shakes her chest, thus doing a great job of the kind of wedding ambience that leads your tipsy cousin to jump on the table with a lampshade on her head, and the iconic gypsy chest shaking move. The footwork choreography looks quite gypsyish. The pair spin doesn't seem particularly gypsy-it seems to be a generic Natalia spin. And the Biellmann rotation lift is skirting close to the " is that gypsy at all?" boundary. On the other hand, their presentation throughout is passionate, at least IMO.

Virtue & Moir, coached by Shpilband, Dark Eyes, at the GPF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlFktd3S3Wo

Their rotational lift has a gypsy feel, and the last step sequence has foot slapping and arm flinging activity. Tessa does get in one shoulder shake between elements. But this is not making it as gypsy passion for me. And the movements are too smooth and not sharp enough I wonder whether their smooth style is just not a great fit for Russian gypsy music. The dance spin is particularly generic and deserves -1 GOE.

Copeley & Stagniunas, coached by Garanina, Two Guitars, Cup of Russia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqG9B2a8r0Q

Fraser & Lukanin, coached by Morozov, Shatritsa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKjyNIQF4KU

Weaver & Poje, coached by McIntosh, choreographed by Wing & Lowe, Those Were the Days/Road to Vladivostok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmJJy1utsy0

Capellini & Lanotte, Balkan Gypsy, coached by Pelizzola, choreographed by Vlasova
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L52iVloRFvs
Beknazarova and Zuev, Ukrainian Gypsies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZqcP_8mqAk

Finally,we have, of course, seen Russian gypsy dancing on the ice before. Belbin & Agosto were very successful with their
version of Shatritsa. For comparison, here's a link to their performance at Worlds 2005:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qcb4_HVlU

I hope that some of you know lots about Russian gypsy dancing and will link to better clips!

Wow. Thanks for that info. I have to say that Belbin and Agosto and Navarro and Bommentre really did some different dances this year with the country theme and the african theme. I think that both teams did show the character of the dance.

I know that Nav/Bom did work with an african dance teacher in the choreography of their routine. I am not sure about Belbin and Agosto. But I

But I have to agree, I am so sick of Russian themes...everyone uses them. At least the one chinese pair team took a chance by doing the Hava Nigla (sp?). This was the team that was at Skate America.

I will be putting info up about B&A and NavBoms dances later in the week! The next section, though will be Russian folk dancings, Kalinkas, Cossacks & Gopaks. That gets me through about half the teams out there

I knew there would be a deluge of Slavic folk dances with so many slavic choreographers all over the world. There were more than enough at US Nationals. It made stereotyped country dancing by Bel/Ago look unusual.

There is no surprises in Folk Dance on skates. It's so stereotyped or hollywoodish that I take it for a battle of comic dancing. I've lived in Africa for a few years and never saw anything like Nav/Bom.

Character of the Dance? What's the dance? If I knew the dance, I could judge to see if they take it on upbeat or downbeat.

Joe

Tanith and Ben weren't the only Cotton Eye Joes out there (in fact Wester & Barantsev had the music before Tanith and Ben changed it) but I didn't really find them all that *original* as Joe said - it was completely stereotyped (which I guess is what the international judges wanted, hence the changes)

Joe, If you look at the video links I've posted, they'll show you some real Russian gypsy dances, so you can judge whether the dances the skaters are doing have the same character. At least that was what I was trying to achieve.

This could be the most interesting and informative thread of the season. (Doris was into ice dancing before ice dancing was cool! ) I hope all you dance mavens will contribute your thoughts.

Doris - I'll check out your videos, and give a report later.

I will say now, that Gypsy dancing be it Russian, Hungarian, or Spanish all have a certain similar passion-like approach. I would expect this in competitive dancing. Nothing surprising.

Joe

Flamenco (!!!) Controlled Passion

Before I leave the general subject of gypsy dancing, I want to discuss flamenco, a dance of the Andalusian region of Spain, which has undergone significant gypsy (Gitano) influence. Pechalat and Bourzat dance a Flamenco OD this season. The following clip shows their performance at Europeans this year. The commentary is by Simon & Nicky of British Eurosport again. Simon & Nicky think this dance is better than Domnina & Shabalin's. They have reason, and these reasons are partially due to Pechalat and Bourzat really portraying the character of the dance well. Furthermore, they do so in some very clever ways.

Pechalat Bourzat 2008 Europeans Flamenco OD Eurosport commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGvyl-i6Pi8

First, a flamenco character is as much about arms, posture and attitude as anything else. As you watch their dance, notice the steps are rather generic. However, his posture and her use of arms are very authentic looking.

Check out this video of how to do flamenco arms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SPMO26VjtY

Furthermore, their use of the fan as a prop is a wonderful touch. They do a rather generic straight line lift that is transformed to a flamenco lift by her arms and fan. They also plan to use the fan in their pair spin (see the COR clip) Again, this takes the usual generic pair spin and successfully makes it a flamenco spin. There appears to have been a problem with her being able to get the fan out at Europeans during the spin.

Pechalat and Bourzat OD COR 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4NhOz3OsRs

She pulls the fan from her bodice and returns it there for movements that might be difficult with a fan. This is a really clever use of a prop.

To compare to the real thing, here is a street flamenco by amateurs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dikOpbb7yqE

and a stage flamenco by experts
Nunez & Lourant Flamenco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjMAr1xffzg&feature=related

We have, of course, already seen a flamenco on ice performed amazingly by Anissina & Peizerat at the 2002 Olympics.

Anissina Flamenco 2002 Olympics OD British Eurosport commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKs08SGS0EE

Krail & Peter of Switzerland are also doing a Flamenco OD this year. Here's their performance from Europeans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bQoKQX3yME

as are Kiudmaa and Trohlev of Estonia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qOg-b79l08

I have said it before, and I'm sure I will say it again, I was to be DorisP when I grow up!!! Your knowledge, insight, and ability to synthesize information astound me. Thank you sooo much for starting this thread, and I look forward to continuing to read it.

Two things about this OD strike me. First, the difficulty of making something like twizzles fit the character of the dance. In many sorts of dance, they cannot help but seem out of place. Doing something different with the arms or positions might be an attractive way of overcoming this, but it is, by nature, limited.

Second, the limited number of appropriate dances with which people are familiar. Sure, there are countless dances out there, considering that virtually every culture has at least one of two of their own, but how many of them are well known by choreographers and judges and skaters and viewers (including commentators)???

I think these things combined are what Nancy Kerrigan was referring to as artistic license.

I really am excited for continued commentary in this thread -- a good place for learning my "something new every day."

thank you, Mathman and Toepick, for your kind words. I am going to try to finish the series, and your encouragement definitely helps!

Toepick, I am definitely going to get into the problem of unfamiliarity when I get to Belbin & Agosto's Skate America version of the Appalachian hoedown. That great, well researched dance was scrapped because the international judges just weren't getting it, and didn't know the distinctions between Appalachian clogging and western line dancing, IMO.

However, I will be finishing up the Russian dances first.

To Prop or Not to Prop?

The folk OD this year represents the first chance that skaters in a non-exhibition setting have been allowed to use props.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU Communication 1449.pdf

The prop section is from page 3, where it is permitted to use a prop as part of the costume, but a warning is issued that if a prop is dropped there will be a deduction. Ribbons, headbands and hats are specifically mentioned.

I wondered at first why any couple would use a prop, when there was no obvious compensation for the risk of dropping the prop or having the prop judged not in the character of the music. All is now clear. The prop, when used successfully, can be a magic talisman that adds the character of the dance to generic pair spins and lifts, thus avoiding the -1 GOE hits.

Pechalat and Bourzat, as I mentioned above, do this very successfully this year. However, the risk has been such that very few couples are using props. Those that I know of are:

Belbin & Agosto - a hat
Delobel & Schonfelder - ribbons
Pechalat & Bourzat - a fan
Shibutanis (Jr. 4th place at US Nationals) - a fan

If you missed the Shibutanis' OD, it was very entertaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_Jselxt5c&feature=related

Other attempts:
Davis & White attempted to use a handkerchief (as well as a hat) in their Kalinka OD at Skate America, but found that it detracted from the program (primarily, I think, from their speed, but this is my guess) and have ceased using it. They abandoned the hat, too, because it made Charlie appear too young, they said.

Davis & White at Skate America with a yellow handkerchief:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLVMye29CWU

Believe it or not, little waving handkerchiefs do appear in Russian dancing. Here's a clip I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjXkgtMuTFI

Virtue and Moir used a shawl in an early version of their gypsy OD, skated at the Canadian test skate. The dance is a much better gypsy dance with the shawl, but apparently it must be rather difficult to cope with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwROk-5mGLU

It is reported that Virtue and Moir still try the dance with the shawl, but it has yet to appear in competition this year.

Frankly, I think that the character of both V&M's and D&W's dances are affected negatively by the lack of the prop they first intended to use.

Just want to add a little about Gypsy dancing in Russian culture. The weird symbiosis of the cultures has been going on for centuries. If you recall some of Tolstoy's works, especially War and Peace, it's common for the aristocratic bachelors to go "to the gypsies"; it sort of gave them a license to let go emotionally.

In the modern times, the theme has often gotten not only overused, but trivialized and made very very cheesy. Some of those "Two Guitars" clips make me cringe! In fact, the ever-popular "Dark Eyes" have little to do with real Roma culture - the words were written by a Ukrainian (Grebyonka), and the music by a German (Hermann). The popular version is based on the words adapted by the early 20th century singer Shalyapian.

BTW, if you want to get a bit of an understanding of various folk dances as they get adapted to other dance forms, AND understand some about where the Russian modern tradition of performing folk dances comes from, keep an eye out on Moiseyev Company. It's a famous group that was headed by Igor Moiseyev (he died in March); I would say that they are the baseline for the genre. BTW, Katya Gordeeva's father used to dance with that company. Personally, I went to their concert in Boston about a month ago, and I enjoyed it very much.

If one likes props, so be it. Handkerchief waving is in so many folk dances with all sorts of other props (think Greek, if not Chinese) that using them is to perk up the viewer. I'm not impressed but then I am jaded.


Joe

Many kudos to Doris for the amazing attempt to analyze folk dances as translated to ice! Wow, you did some research!

I have dialup, so can't really watch the clips, but am enjoying the comments.

Now, if we are to accept the premise that the props can help accentuate the dance's character, and may be a conscious attempt to avoid the -GOE, my question then is, have skaters been getting the -GOE, and do they feel it's because of lack of showing the character of the dance?

I'd guess, as Doris and others have wondered, that there may be limited knowledge of the folk dances themselves, and therefore, that likely impacts how accurately the judging can be when evaluating whether the source dance's character is captured.

Can't wait to read the rundown on B/A's first Appalachian Hoedown. I may have to bite the bullet and watch it, even though it takes about 3 mins of buffering time for each 2 seconds of video! I knew it had been changed, but didn't realize they had had a well-researched dance with more or less authentic choreography, and that had to be changed into something more generic.

dorispulaski said:

Virtue and Moir used a shawl in an early version of their gypsy OD, skated at the Canadian test skate. The dance is a much better gypsy dance with the shawl, but apparently it must be rather difficult to cope with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwROk-5mGLU

It is reported that Virtue and Moir still try the dance with the shawl, but it has yet to appear in competition this year.

Frankly, I think that the character of both V&M's and D&W's dances are affected negatively by the lack of the prop they first intended to use.

Click to expand...

I agree that V&M's OD was much better with the shawl -- the choreographed movements were obviously designed with the shawl in mind. Even the relationship/passion was dependent upon stealing the prop and getting it back again. Without the shawl, the program doesn't make much sense.

rallycairn, for some help with your dialup dealings with youtube, go to

http://www.keepvid.com

Go to the bottom of the page, step 3. and download an flv player, by clicking on the link. You will need it to play your clips.


Once you have an flv player installed, copy the address of the youtube link you want to download.

1. To the right at the top of the page, select Youtube from the dropdown menu (where it says Any Site now). Hit the drop down arrow. Youtube is 3rd on the list.
2. Paste the youtube address into the white box to the left of the top of the page.

3. Left Click once on the download button to the far right of the same bar. A gray download link will appear to the left under the bar. Left Click on the Download Link button.

4. A save box will pop up. It will save your video with the name "getvideo.flv" unless you change the name. The extension must stay .flv.

When you want to play your file, right click on the filename and choose Open With and pick flvplayer.

At the top of the picture are two choices x1 and x2. Left click on x2 to get a bigger picture.

This is a pest, but not as big a pest as waiting 2 minutes per buffer. At least it's set it and forget it until the download is complete.

Ptichka, Thank you for adding more info on Russian gypsies !!

I hope you'll drop back and add more info on the Russian folk dances after I finish that part. I did know about the Moiseyev dances. I know that B&B called one of their FD's Moiseyev dances. However, for some reason I couldn't locate any really good clips on youtube.

dorispulaski said:

rallycairn, for some help with your dialup dealings with youtube, go to

http://www.keepvid.com

Click to expand...

Thanks for this info! I didn't know you could do this.

Joesitz said:

I will say now, that Gypsy dancing be it Russian, Hungarian, or Spanish all have a certain similar passion-like approach. I would expect this in competitive dancing. Nothing surprising.

Click to expand...

Well Gypsies are originally from India and you can see elements of both classical and village folk dance from India in a lot of gypsy dancing (esp. flamenco imho).