Who is second best male skater after Plushenko?

Jaana · Jun 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
This topic does presuppose that Plushenko is the best male skater. That is a matter of opinion.

Joe

There is no presupposing in the title of this topic, as this poll is about eligible skaters of today and among them Plushenko definetely is the best. It is not a matter of opinion or a matter of fan opinions, it is the opinion of judges. No other eligible male skater is even close to Plushenko´s achievements.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2006

Jaana said:
This poll is about eligible skaters of today and among them Plushenko definetely is the best. It is not a matter of opinion or a matter of fan opinions, it is the opinion of judges. From other eligible skaters no-one is even close to Plushenko´s achievements.

And according to the judges Sarah Hughes was the best in 2002, and Irina Slutskaya was second best. You have full faith in the OPINIONS of the judges.

There is nothing wrong with Plushenko being the best in your opinion. The problem with the thread is the question itself. I don't know why you can't see that. I don't know why you can't see it as a double barrel question?

What if someone had put a topic such as Who is the Second Best Female Skater Ever after Kwan?

I think you would be the first to object to the question.

Joe

Niza · Jun 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
And according to the judges Sarah Hughes was the best in 2002, and Irina Slutskaya was second best. You have full faith in the OPINIONS of the judges.
There is nothing wrong with Plushenko being the best in your opinion. The problem with the thread is the question itself. I don't know why you can't see that. I don't know why you can't see it as a double barrel question?
What if someone had put a topic such as Who is the Second Best Female Skater Ever after Kwan?
I think you would be the first to object to the question.

Joe

what about you? Kwan was not the leader last four years. Plush was the first-skater or the second-skater at 1998-2002 and clear leader at 2002-2006.
Is it possible to compare him with Hughes or even with now-Kwan?

Therefore our personal opinion has no value.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2006

Niza said:
what about you? Kwan was not the leader last four years. Plush was the first-skater or the second-skater at 1998-2002 and clear leader at 2002-2006.
Is it possible to compare him with Hughes or even with now-Kwan?

Therefore our personal opinion has no value.

Your personal OPINION is absolutely CORRECT. No one said your personal opinion has no value. Read better.

As I said before NOTHING IS WRONG WITH ANYONE'S OPINION!!!!!

What is wrong here is the Topic title. The topic implies that a skater is the best in the world without any mention of the originator of the topic's opinion..

If one person does not think any skater is the BEST, then it is not100 per cent correct to state it as FACT.

(I hope some posters take up some Human Communications with a side of Debate when in school.)

Joe

riverflows · Jun 19, 2006

Let's just assume Plushenko is the current best because the last competition where he did not get Gold was in 2004.

I'm actually surprised that most people agree with me on Johnny Weir being the second best (I'm from Taiwan, btw, so no bias there). It's good to see that other people think he still has the complete package even if he hasn't been doing well.

Jaana · Jun 21, 2006

Joesitz said:
And according to the judges Sarah Hughes was the best in 2002, and Irina Slutskaya was second best. You have full faith in the OPINIONS of the judges.Joe

Yes, I have faith in judging if a skater continuosly wins major competitions during several seasons, he is the best.

Joesitz said:
There is nothing wrong with Plushenko being the best in your opinion. The problem with the thread is the question itself. I don't know why you can't see that. I don't know why you can't see it as a double barrel question? Joe

In Plushenko´s case I don´t see it as double barrel question, because he simply IS the best skater of today (based on his achievements in 2002-2006). And I have to add, that I´m not any huge Plushenko fan, although I have liked some of his programmes a lot. If I have brought his name up in connections, it has happened that he has been best in those connections. LOL, I´m not one of those who always sees just one´s favourite skater as the best in everything.

Joesitz said:
What if someone had put a topic such as Who is the Second Best Female Skater Ever after Kwan?

I think you would be the first to object to the question.

Joe

Well, yes, I would object because Kwan has not won any major international competitions for some years. Besides the original poll question in this thread was not about "ever", it is about current years with current eligible male skaters on the list, see?.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 21, 2006

Sorry Jaana but your rationale for Plushy is still your opinion.

With 5 World Championships won by Michelle Kwan, I do not think you would call her the best. And I don't think you would call her the best in 2003. There are other Lady skaters you prefer and that is your opinion, too. No problem.

However, if your belief that the ' best' is only in the current year, well maybe, but there are other skaters who won the 2006 Olys, too.

Joe

Brigi · Jun 21, 2006

The best skater of all times is Yagudin, the 2nd is Plushenko, and the 3rd is Lambiel! This is my openion.

Alesya · Jun 21, 2006

Brigi said:
the 3rd is Lambiel! This is my openion.

Why? Do you think that Lambiel is better skater than Urmanov or Kulik or Petrenko? I think all-time best is Plushy, than Urmanov than Yagudin. So great skaters! I love them all.
And i love Weir! :clap:

slutskayafan21 · Jun 21, 2006

I would take Lambiel over Urmanov easily. Urmanov has an Oly gold, but only one World medal, a bronze medal. He has only landed a couple quads in his career, and his triple jumps are even more inconsistent. His spins look like a broken down grandmother's compared to Lambiel's, and his footwork is weaker as well.

Jaana · Jun 23, 2006

Joesitz said:
Sorry Jaana but your rationale for Plushy is still your opinion.Joe

I cannot agree, because Plushenko´s achievements in Olympiade 2002-2006 are facts and not my personal opinions.

Joesitz said:
With 5 World Championships won by Michelle Kwan, I do not think you would call her the best. And I don't think you would call her the best in 2003. There are other Lady skaters you prefer and that is your opinion, too. No problem. Joe

Here the question is about current years (look at the list of the male skaters!!!). About Kwan, she has not won 5 World titles during this last Olympiade (2002-2006).

Joesitz said:
However, if your belief that the ' best' is only in the current year, well maybe, but there are other skaters who won the 2006 Olys, too.

Joe

Again, as I mentioned that Plushenko is the best, it was not about "current year", it is about current years. Let´s take the current years = the Olympiade 2002-2006: Every time Plushenko participated, he won the World title. With one exception he also won every Europeans title. And he also won the Olympic gold medal.

Nobody else on the list is even close to Plushenko´s achievements, he definetely is the best from currently eligible male skaters. I don´t understand your remark about other 2006 Olympic winners, because this poll is about currently eligible male skaters. That fact is to be concluded from the male skaters mentioned on the list.

Here the list of of the skaters again (Who is second best after Plushenko).

Sandhu (no World medals)
Buttle (one World silver medal
Joubert (two World silver medals)
Weir (no World medals)
Lindemann (one World bronze medal)
Takahashi (no World medals)
Lysacek (two World bronze medals)
Oda (no World medals)

Which skater on that list do you see winning in achievements over Plushenko, Joe?

Lots of skating fans have chosen Lambiel as the second best, because he has won 2 World titles (Plushenko not present though). He was my choice, too.

swissmiss · Jun 23, 2006

So why isn't the 2nd best skater after Plushenko included in the poll? :scratch:

Jaana · Jun 23, 2006

swissmiss said:
So why isn't the 2nd best skater after Plushenko included in the poll? :scratch:

For that there was the place "Other". I was surprised too, that Lambiel´s name was not mentioned in the list.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 23, 2006

Jaana. I wish you could understand I am not selecting the 'best' skater last year. I am discussing the art of debate and the topic title is badly written.

If the topic read: Who other than Evgeni was the 'best' skater last year, I could have an opinion and it may not be based on the results of the Olympics.

At this point I can only agree to disagree with you since we are not discussing the same issues.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 23, 2006

swissmiss said:
So why isn't the 2nd best skater after Plushenko included in the poll? :scratch:

Lambiel was not included in the poll because the poll was designed by the originator to support his basic premise: "Everybody hates Lambiel."

By leaving off Lambiel's name he could then report on other boards, "See, I did a poll on who is the best skater after Plushenko and nobody voted for Lambiel. That proves that everyone hates him, just as I have been saying!" :biggrin:

Like Joe says, it's a debating tactic rather than a genuine solicitation of views.

Jaana · Jun 24, 2006

Just wanted to add something, because apparently you do not understand what I have meant.

Joesitz said:
Jaana. I wish you could understand I am not selecting the 'best' skater last year. I am discussing the art of debate and the topic title is badly written.Joe

I have not been discussing the best skater last year. I have been discussing the best skater (Plushenko) in the Olympiade of 2002-2006. Statistically he IS the best skater during that time. As such the title of this topic is totally right. That is no opinion, but simply statistics.

Joesitz If said:
the topic read: Who other than Evgeni was the 'best' skater last year, I could have an opinion and it may not be based on the results of the Olympics.Joe

I don´t understand that logic, because only one can be best. Besides, what gave you the idea that this was about last year??? Anyway, Plushenko is statistically the best skater for a long periode (2002-2006).

This matter is not about agreeing or disagreeing, because it is not about opinions. Plushenko´s superiority contra other male singles skaters in 2002-2006 are statistical facts.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 24, 2006

Agreeing to disagree is definitely my way of ending this discussion.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 24, 2006

Jaana said:
In Plushenko´s case I don´t see it as double barrel question, because he simply IS the best skater of today (based on his achievements in 2002-2006).

Oh, I don't think that's the intent of the question at all. If you read the actual question, it doesn't say "who had the best competitive record over the last four years." To me, the question is about "who is the best RIGHT NOW."

Some people thought Plushenko was only so-so in Turino and that his high marks were undeserved. Some people think he is over the hill (however great he might have been over the last few years), some people think he has been slowed by injuries so that he is not the skater he was two years ago, some people even think he won't be competing any more at all.

Some people think that a skater like Lambiel, the current world champion who is on the rise, is better right now, at this moment.

Others may be of the opinion that, no, Plushenko is still far better than anyone else. Well, on this thread both of these opinions have been expressed.

Zazanuka · Jun 24, 2006

Mathman said:
Some people thought Plushenko was only so-so in Turino and that his high marks were undeserved.

Yes, but there were many competitions in 2005-2006. Lambiel had only one successful performance - qualification in Calgary. All rest - so-so and even worse. Yes, really, Plush was not at his level in Turin, but at Europe he was simply amazing, Toska from COR was magnificent.
RIGHT NOW we saw Lambiel in Japan and if he is best RIGHT NOW :eek:

hwell: .
(Nevertheless i like Lambiel.)

Mathman · Jun 24, 2006

I agree with everything you said, Zazanuka. Others disagree.

Here's what the ISU thinks. The current official ISU rankings (based on results in major events in 2004-2005, weighted at 70%, and in 2005-2006, weighted at 100%):

http://www.isufs.org/ws/wsmen.htm

Buttle 3860
Sandhu 3365
Joubert 3265
Lambiel 3215
Lysacek 3040
Plushenko 3028
Weir 2895
Oda 2889
Takahash 2489
Li 2477

These numbers are facts. That is, there are no mistakes in arithmetic nor ambiguities about how the ISU formula computes them.

My opinion is that Evgeny is not losing any sleep over it.

Who is second best male skater after Plushenko?

Second best male skater after Plushenko?

Sandhu

Buttle

Joubert

Weir

Lindemann

Takahashi

Lysacek

Oda

Other

Jaana

Joesitz (RIP)

Niza

Joesitz (RIP)

riverflows

Guest

Jaana

Joesitz (RIP)

Brigi

Alesya

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Jaana

swissmiss

Jaana

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Jaana

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Zazanuka

Mathman

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