A Diva??? No way!!! I love her just the way she is, she's my reason to watch figure skating!!!
:agree:
Is Kimmie Meissner underrated?
- Thread starter slutskayafan21
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A Diva??? No way!!! I love her just the way she is, she's my reason to watch figure skating!!!
:agree:
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- Dec 16, 2006
I like Kimmie just the way she is. Many fans, however, are trying to portray her as if she is like Trixie Schuba, who wasn't as bad as people portrayed her to be, but had the misfortune of competing with one of the best free skaters ever.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kdJLmn6ucMU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kdJLmn6ucMU
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Thank you for the link to Trixie. I had never seen that skate. She was very precise and clean. Not bad at all. It would be a good promo for young ladies to learn from how well she skated her free style. I did see Lynn's free skate. She fell on something as I remember but still far superior to Trixie in both Sport and Presentation. That's the way it goes in Skateland.
I do think Ms Flemming would have beaten both of them.
Joe
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- Mar 22, 2004
I think that that clip is Schuba at her best in free skating the only other clips I've seen she's a lot .... dowdier (clean and with some good basic technique, but ... dowdy sort of as if you'd put skates on queen elisabeth).
Fleming's eligible free skating also IMHO doesn't hold up so well (as opposed to her rival Gabi Seyfert whose eligible stuff really holds up well), IIRC Button said she was one of the few champions to get better as a pro, I'd go so far as to say she only became a great free skater after turning pro.
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- Mar 28, 2005
An interesting comment given Seyfert never beat Fleming in free skating at any head to head competition from 1966-1968. I often why Seyfert did not stay in after winning the 69 and 70 Worlds, to try for the 72 Olympic Gold, perhaps she saw the writing on the wall with Schuba's ever increasing dominance in figures, and realized that was the last year she would be overcome the growing mammoth leads Schuba was gaining in figures with dazzling free skating.
More Thoughts
Red Dog, Kimmie has improved alot. I completely agree with that. I think when the truly breathtaking skaters make the "jump" from new skater to more accomplished skater, you see a REAL change in their artistry. Like Salome was for Michelle.I don't see that with Kimmie. I think she has made the jump and I think this is as good as it gets. If she proves me wrong no one would be happier than me. Personally, I think it will be Caroline Zhang who makes the truly spectacular transition for the U.S. Kim and Asado may be doing it right now.
Museksk8r, I don't think Nicole was ever in Sasha's league in any way. I also liked Nicole but we all know she had issues. She may have had the most natural talent of any skater around and she was lovely to watch when she was on. But there were outside issues that impacted her skating in a major way and prevented her from becoming the skater she could have been (at least we think she could have been). Unfortunately, the problems are what most people remember when they think of Nicole. I wish that story had ended differently. She was loaded with natural gifts.
Red Dog, Kimmie has improved alot. I completely agree with that. I think when the truly breathtaking skaters make the "jump" from new skater to more accomplished skater, you see a REAL change in their artistry. Like Salome was for Michelle.I don't see that with Kimmie. I think she has made the jump and I think this is as good as it gets. If she proves me wrong no one would be happier than me. Personally, I think it will be Caroline Zhang who makes the truly spectacular transition for the U.S. Kim and Asado may be doing it right now.
Museksk8r, I don't think Nicole was ever in Sasha's league in any way. I also liked Nicole but we all know she had issues. She may have had the most natural talent of any skater around and she was lovely to watch when she was on. But there were outside issues that impacted her skating in a major way and prevented her from becoming the skater she could have been (at least we think she could have been). Unfortunately, the problems are what most people remember when they think of Nicole. I wish that story had ended differently. She was loaded with natural gifts.
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- Dec 29, 2004
Oh my goodness... the end is near... I never thought I'd be defending Sasha, but Kyla is absolutely correct... its not fair to compare Sasha to Nicole...
Sasha's work ethic was never in question. Her ability to skate when it counted was her main issue. She never was able to skate like she was either alone on the ice or make the audience skate with her... the nerves did Sasha in... with Nicole, it was everything off the ice that caused her issues. And it was truly sad to see her go from '95 Nationals victory to her piss poor behavior and attitude at the '98 games.
Kwan, as much as I was a fan of Sasha... Well Sasha's work ethic is a bit in question:
Both Tarasova (in Russian) and Wagner have made some remarks about Sasha's work ethic. It sounds like from Tarasova, Sasha would skate for hours one day, and then none at all another day...
Wagner it seems felt that Sasha was more interested in practicing things like her spirals, than let's say new jump combinations...Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound like Sasha was as bad as let's say Nicole. But it doesn't sound like she necessarily has Meissner's work ethic.
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- Dec 29, 2004
Point taken... but while Sasha might not have taken direction and pushed herself as a champion athlete... its still not fair to compare her with Nicole. Sasha didn't take full advantage of her gifts - Nicole squandered hers...
Training
I think it is correct to say that Sasha did not train like Michelle did, or Kimmie and Caroline do now. But she trained far more than Nicole. Poor training habits were a big part of Nicole's inability to get to the very top and stay there. Look, I don't want to turn this into a bash Nicole fest here. It's positively painful for me to think about it. She had such huge family problems, which impacted her life tremendously and for that I have nothing but compassion. I suspect if all the facts were known, she did amazingly well to get as far as she did.
I think it is correct to say that Sasha did not train like Michelle did, or Kimmie and Caroline do now. But she trained far more than Nicole. Poor training habits were a big part of Nicole's inability to get to the very top and stay there. Look, I don't want to turn this into a bash Nicole fest here. It's positively painful for me to think about it. She had such huge family problems, which impacted her life tremendously and for that I have nothing but compassion. I suspect if all the facts were known, she did amazingly well to get as far as she did.
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- Mar 28, 2005
I dont know exactly how Sasha will be remembered, but I highly doubt she will be remembered anywhere near as highly as someone like kyla seems to think, particularly outside the U.S. Kwan and Slutskaya will be remembered as by far the 2 greatest skaters of this era, far above lots of potential no big titles to show for it Sasha. Shizuka may even be regarded above Sasha from this era of skaters, by many by virtue of her TWO, not just one, major titles, that Sasha kept falling short of. Also while Sasha had the potential to be a multiple World and Olympic Champion had she been able to overcome her nerves in competition, Sashas skating still had other faults to it, regardless how much Button and Fleming tried to hyperventilate over them. Her jump technique is not that strong, one of the worst of all the top skaters, her jumps are quite tiny, Shizuka and Slutskaya could probably fit two of Sashas jumps within their own, she lacked speed and ice coverage, and her edge quality and basics were questionable as well. She may be the best skater in the world above the ankles, but below the ankles is the foundation of this sport and should not be overlooked.
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- Mar 28, 2005
:chorus: What can I say. I wasnt the one who brought Sasha in.
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- Mar 22, 2004
Well in that era, I have the impression that figures _were_ the title, the free-skate was almost like a gala, it wasn't about deciding who won (except in exceptional circumstances) but showing the audience who had won (much like the free dance until recent years). Fleming was typically well ahead after figures and was credible enough in free skating for the judges to give that too her too since it wouldn't make any difference.
But in the '68 world championship footage that's available on youtube, for me Seyfert (and maybe Masakova) are more interesting than Fleming who had an off day (but still won the free...). And she wasn't at her best in Grenoble either, once on tv they showed part of her olympic free skate while she commented - she was not very happy with what she saw.
I also think Seyfert quit partly because of the looming presence of Schuba.
Slutskayafan21
Yes, this thread is about Meissner but Sasha's name was brought up so I am defending her. Sasha didn not skate from the ankles up, that's absurd. Her technique was not nearly as bad as you have presented it. If she skated as badly as you described, she wouldn't have been able to do a single lutz never mind a triple. You have to have pretty good edges to do the spirals she did also. Peggy and Dick are far better judges of a figure skater's ability than either you or I. They were blown away by her and for good reason, so was Frank Carroll, another first rate judge of skating talent. I will agree with you about one thing, she won't be remembered in the same way as Michelle and irina.
Yes, this thread is about Meissner but Sasha's name was brought up so I am defending her. Sasha didn not skate from the ankles up, that's absurd. Her technique was not nearly as bad as you have presented it. If she skated as badly as you described, she wouldn't have been able to do a single lutz never mind a triple. You have to have pretty good edges to do the spirals she did also. Peggy and Dick are far better judges of a figure skater's ability than either you or I. They were blown away by her and for good reason, so was Frank Carroll, another first rate judge of skating talent. I will agree with you about one thing, she won't be remembered in the same way as Michelle and irina.
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- Mar 28, 2005
She actually never did a lutz, she did a flutz, and a bad one too.
Actually the reason people think her spirals are so stunning IMHO are the amazing extension, flexibility, and positions. If people factored in the depth of edge and the flow as well, Kwan I believe would still have been generally considered to have had the best overall spirals, but all too often people got caught up in the wow factor and forget those crucial elements.
Skating experts certainly are more qualified then us fans, but remember they have their own biases, just as us fans do, perhaps even stronger biases then us fans as they are even more closely involved in the sport emotionaly to begin with. Dick Button imparticular has shown some strong biases to American women in recent years, remember how he was so dismissive of Sarah Hughes and her flutzes, rounded shoulders, cheated triple-triples and other flaws. Experts also differ significantly in opinion with each other quite often, not every skating expert is blown away by a skater the same way. Have you ever watched any of a womens event on Eurosport. Sasha does not seem a particular favorite of theirs whenever I have heard their commentary. So with all that being said one should not be told to accept an opinion just because such and such an expert thinks that.
Umm sorry I dont recall that. Would you be kind enough to show me any quotes of Carroll to indicate he was blown away. I have only heard modest praise of her from him, quite reserved in fact, although part of that might be a soft spot for Michelle his former pupil.
Well atleast we agree on something.
The bottom line in all this for me though is that Sashas story is closed. Her career is over, and whatever you make of how that career and she as a skater will be remembered, it is whatever it is, the book is complete. Kimmies career is of yet incomplete, her story is still being written, there are more chapters she could add to the ones already written, and she will never lose any of what she has already achieved, the only possability is to add to it further.
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Slutskaya, I did read interviews were Frank praised Sasha, mainly though when she was younger.
For example I read this article way back before Sasha's national debut, or announcing it. In the article they were talking about several top talents, and they quoted Frank Carroll saying that he loved everything about Sasha Cohen from the way she moved her head etc...
Another article was when Sasha was young, and John Nicks was complaining about how much trouble Sasha was how headstrong she was, and Frank Carroll said, hey if she's really giving you that much trouble, I'll be glad to take her off your hands.
So yes, Frank did like Sasha..
For example I read this article way back before Sasha's national debut, or announcing it. In the article they were talking about several top talents, and they quoted Frank Carroll saying that he loved everything about Sasha Cohen from the way she moved her head etc...
Another article was when Sasha was young, and John Nicks was complaining about how much trouble Sasha was how headstrong she was, and Frank Carroll said, hey if she's really giving you that much trouble, I'll be glad to take her off your hands.
So yes, Frank did like Sasha..
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- Mar 28, 2005
OK thanks. I confess I never got that impression so much from the articles I read when he referred to her, but I guess you dont always gush on someone everytime you speak on them, even if they are someone you do feel that way towards.
Frank Carroll felt that way when Sasha was younger.. He may have not felt that way after several years of watching how Sasha developed as a Senior...Frank might have been good for Sasha, but he might have had the same issues with her that let's say Tarasova had.... I don't think though that Frank was really going to steal Mr Nick's star student.
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- Mar 28, 2005
Well most of what I was aware of him talking about her was after 2002. From 2000-2002 I was not aware of many of his comments on her. It was from 2003-2006 that I either heard or read most. They were still positive, good comments, but like I said modest and subdued praise, not the way he goes on about someone he really is awed by (and there are quite a few of those for him).
