Is the Spiral Overrated?

Mathman · Aug 24, 2008

mskater93 said:
Disagree that Sasha had the best spirals, but we can agree to disagree.

IIRC Michelle has said that she always had to work hard on her flexibility. For instance, she had to experiment with different kinds of layback positions because it was really hard for her to get enough arch in her back in the classic attitude position.

As for her spiral, it always seemed to me that the difference between Michelle's (and Nicole Bobek's) spiral position and Sasha's was that Michelle achieved her amplitude by rotating her hip. Sasha could bring her leg straight up and back, but at the cost of security and depth of edges.

Do you think that analysis is correct?

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 24, 2008

I think fans tend to ignore that MK never took acrobsyiv or ballet lessons. Hers was pure skating.

AwesomeIce · Aug 24, 2008

mskater93 said:
Disagree that Sasha had the best spirals, but we can agree to disagree.

I'll agree with that! She had excellent amplitude of the free leg, but beyond that, nothing out of the ordinary.

mskater93 · Aug 25, 2008

I thought Sasha used her upper body to achieve a higher free leg versus Bobek who had the front half of a champaign glass.

demarinis5 · Aug 25, 2008

I do not think it is overrated and a good spiral is not a simple move as evidenced by the array of not so nice looking spirals that we see versus a really good spiral. I appreciate the beauty of a spiral as done by Sasha, Shiz and Nicole B. but my favorite is Michelle. She may not get her leg as high as some of the others but for me there is a feeling of movement and flight in her spiral as she moves across the ice and I don't see that with other skaters, not yet.

TtonyV7 · Aug 25, 2008

Spirals use to be about strong edging rather than stretch. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy nicely stretch spirals. But I think spirals with very strong Edges done with great speed and hold is less frequent now a days.

One skater who did had fantastic edges and did her spirals with remarkable speed was Anna Rechino. True, they didn't have the typical "Kwan" or "Bobek" stretch but was a superior spiral sequence for different reasons.

Oh btw, in my opinion, spirals used to underrated. Weather they are overrated now? Don't know, but can't stand anything more than shakey, average cohen position attempt, slow spirals.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 26, 2008

The bottom line on all this, and it's not just for me, is that it is a basic move, and any skater who can not do basic moves, well......

mskater93 · Aug 26, 2008

TtonyV7 said:
Spirals use to be about strong edging rather than stretch. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy nicely stretch spirals. But I think spirals with very strong Edges done with great speed and hold is less frequent now a days.

Don't know, but can't stand anything more than shakey, average cohen position attempt, slow spirals.

I saw a WONDERFUL part of a spiral sequence during the senior ladies event at DuPageOpen on the 17th. I can't remember the skater, but after the COE, to get her 6 seconds, the skater actually pulled the edge on the forward outside spiral in tighter and tigher so it actually spiraled (and the rip of the edge could be heard like a power pull) and then created a (very large) forward outside loop before she did her mohawk to step backwards. I would have given it a +2 for originality and depth of edge. It was also pretty fast. The extension was average, not ridiculously high and shaky looking.

vlaurend · Aug 28, 2008

AwesomeIce said:
I think part of the problem with that is that a skater has a limited amount of time in which to complete x-number of elements. And even within the spiral sequence, there are so many requirements to get the sequence to a high level. There really isn't time to "take the time to do a spiral properly and make it look graceful." You can't just do what goes with the music, because it might not meet the level 3 or 4 requirements. And "taking time" takes time away from the other required elements. So even though a phrase of music might suggest holding one spiral position for 5 or 6 seconds, a skater cuts it down to the minimum requirement of 3 seconds to get it over with and move on to the next move.

Exactly. Also, for a little perspective, go back and look at just about any program from 6.0 days and you'll see that most skaters weren't holding their spirals for more than a second or two. This season you can expect to see almost everyone holding one position for 6 seconds, which is a loooooong time. (Due to the rule changes, the only way to get a level 4 without holding one position for 6 seconds is to have a full split unsupported spiral, and there just aren't many skaters with the strength and flexibility to do that).

BTW, I agree with mskater that it would be nice to have a moves-in-the-field sequence that allows spread eagles, ina bauers, etc. rather than just spirals. I'm guessing the reason they don't is because it might be more complicated to score (?).

Joesitz said:
I posted a thread about spirals looking for support that Spirals at the Senior Level are no big deal.

If they were no big deal, we would never see mistakes on them. But we do, even at world level (Miki Ando, Carolina Kostner, etc.).

Joesitz said:
The bottom line on all this, and it's not just for me, is that it is a basic move, and any skater who can not do basic moves, well......

Saying a spiral is a basic move is like saying a spin is a basic move. Yes, it IS a basic move, but are you talking about a simple one foot upright spin, or are you talking about a level 4 flying combination spin with change of foot? In the same way, you can't compare the simple flat forward spirals on the Preliminary MIF test with a level 4 spiral sequence.

As several people have already pointed out, a lot of the men have trouble doing them well, and these men had to do spirals on both feet, going both directions and on both edges to pass their MIF tests. And yet, most still do them poorly, even if they are part of a pairs team and actually work on them regularly.

And not all of the women/girls can do them "just because they're girls" either. I spend 30-45 minutes stretching after every skating practice just to enable me to do my spirals. And, as mskater pointed out, the balance gets a whole lot trickier when you need to go from a deep inside edge to a deep outside edge in less than 1 meter and when you have to create the tension and balance required for a catch foot spiral with foot above head level. If you think it's easy, try it.

gkelly · Aug 28, 2008

vlaurend said:
you can't compare the simple flat forward spirals on the Preliminary MIF test with a level 4 spiral sequence.

If you're talking about the US tests, the flat spirals are on the Prepreliminary test and the ones on the Preliminary test are forward outside and inside edges.

Good points in the rest of the post!

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 29, 2008

Quote: Vlaurend - Saying a spiral is a basic move is like saying a spin is a basic move. Yes, it IS a basic move, but are you talking about a simple one foot upright spin, or are you talking about a level 4 flying combination spin with change of foot? In the same way, you can't compare the simple flat forward spirals on the Preliminary MIF test with a level 4 spiral sequence.

I said nothing about spinning. The topic is about a stroke on an edge with one foot in the air called a Spiral.

How many Seniors have trouble with them consistently? Of course it's a basic move, imo. An Iina Bauer with toes pointing in opposite directions and in a ballet-like 4th position, is called a move in the Field, which I see as much more difficult than a Spiral and so few skaters do them. They are never used as a required element. What is the reason for that?

Clarice · Aug 29, 2008

Joesitz said:
An Iina Bauer with toes pointing in opposite directions and in a ballet-like 4th position, is called a move in the Field, which I see as much more difficult than a Spiral and so few skaters do them. They are never used as a required element. What is the reason for that?

I think the reason that Ina Bauers are not required elements is because so many skaters are physically incapable of doing them. It's not like spirals, where some can do them much better than others. With a Bauer, if your hips are not open enough, you cannot do them at all. The best you would be able to do with a requirement is give an alternative - ask for a Bauer OR some other move.

mskater93 · Aug 29, 2008

Joesitz said:
I said nothing about spinning. The topic is about a stroke on an edge with one foot in the air called a Spiral.

Vlaurend was using the spin anology as just that - an anology. She is right - flat spiral, hip level = pretty basic/easy, COE less than a meter 3 secs minimum before and after, deep edge and variation = a heck of a lot harder; same as two foot spin with three slow, messy revs = easy, can learn on a public session messing around, flying change combo spin with four features = a heck of a lot harder.

By suggesting a bauer or spread eagle as a "required move", you would eliminate probably at least 1/3 of all skaters who have turned in hips (which makes it is easier to close up your free leg on jumps during rotation. People who are very open hip have a tendency to have a harder time learning doubles and triples.)

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 29, 2008

Clarice said:
I think the reason that Ina Bauers are not required elements is because so many skaters are physically incapable of doing them. It's not like spirals, where some can do them much better than others. With a Bauer, if your hips are not open enough, you cannot do them at all. The best you would be able to do with a requirement is give an alternative - ask for a Bauer OR some other move.

Exactly, and yet one hears so much 'like ballet' for the Spiral which also requires hip, knee as well as toe turned out. Yet most skaters can not do the basics of ballet.

But getting back to basic skating, would be the edge for a Spiral and the complicated edge for the Bauer. It's more than the turnout. JMO.

mskater93 · Aug 29, 2008

A Bauer (if you are turned out even a little) is VERY easy to accomplish. The edge is simple and it is two foot skating! When I first learned a Bauer, it took about 2 minutes to describe the basics to me and about 2 tries to do one competently. I was skating at the preliminary level (had an Axel, working on doubles back in the 80s), then voila! there's your Bauer it goes here in the program. The reason why you don't see a lot of Bauers is the time it takes to do one in addition to 7 jump passes, three (formerly 4) spins, a step sequence (or 2) and a spiral sequence with at least 3 seconds for all three position and at least one at 6 seconds.

Since I am still skating at my ripe old age, I have one into a double salchow in my program and while dodging some of the kids at practice, saw a Bauer into a double Lutz-double toe-double loop this morning. I've also seen a LOT of Bauer-2A (3-4), Bauer-2S (2), Bauer-2F/3F (4) this summer.

Clarice · Aug 29, 2008

Joesitz said:
Exactly, and yet one hears so much 'like ballet' for the Spiral which also requires hip, knee as well as toe turned out. Yet most skaters can not do the basics of ballet.

But getting back to basic skating, would be the edge for a Spiral and the complicated edge for the Bauer. It's more than the turnout. JMO.

Well, yes, but a spiral only requires turnout on the free leg, and even then it more affects the appearance of the position than its execution. A Bauer demands that both legs turn out quite a lot or you can't do one at all. I'm not sure what my point is here, exactly, except that you can expect all skaters to achieve a passable spiral, while a Bauer may be impossible for some. A minimal spiral position is defined as the leg being hip-high, parallel to the ice. The very high free legs look wonderful, but it's really all about the edge, not the height of the leg. I think I'm agreeing with you on that point.

Clarice · Aug 29, 2008

mskater93 said:
A Bauer (if you are turned out even a little) is VERY easy to accomplish. The edge is simple and it is two foot skating!

It's very easy to accomplish if you're physically built to do it. My daughter and I both have open hips, and fall into spread eagles and Bauers quite naturally. I agree that Bauers are much easier than spread eagles. My daughter's coach was a world level pair skater, and has never been able to do a spread eagle, and our Bauers are better than hers. I have read postings from synchro skaters anguishing over these moves - they need to do them for tryouts, but don't have the necessary turnout. You can improve it to some degree, but not past what your anatomy allows without risking injury. I think just about anybody could do a Bauer where both feet are on inside edges, but not necessarily the one where one foot is on an outside edge.

gkelly · Aug 29, 2008

Clarice said:
I think just about anybody could do a Bauer where both feet are on inside edges, but not necessarily the one where one foot is on an outside edge.

My coach tried to teach me this last week. I can do it holding onto the boards, but if I try it out on the ice I end up curving in a very small circle -- my feet aren't turned out 180 degrees, and it ends up being essentially a pivot with the pivot point foot on the center of the blade instead of the toepick.

I'll keep working on it at the boards, but I suspect I don't/won't have sufficient turnout to make it into a usable move.

antmanb · Aug 29, 2008

Clarice said:
It's very easy to accomplish if you're physically built to do it. My daughter and I both have open hips, and fall into spread eagles and Bauers quite naturally. I agree that Bauers are much easier than spread eagles. My daughter's coach was a world level pair skater, and has never been able to do a spread eagle, and our Bauers are better than hers. I have read postings from synchro skaters anguishing over these moves - they need to do them for tryouts, but don't have the necessary turnout. You can improve it to some degree, but not past what your anatomy allows without risking injury. I think just about anybody could do a Bauer where both feet are on inside edges, but not necessarily the one where one foot is on an outside edge.

Are you sure you have that the right way round? Imagine doing a bauer where the leading leg is the left leg on a LFO edge and the trailing leg is on a RBI edge. I don't think that would required as much turnout going in a straightline as it would do do the same move with the leading leg on a LFI edge and the trailing leg being on a RBI edge.

Ant

vlaurend · Aug 29, 2008

gkelly said:
If you're talking about the US tests, the flat spirals are on the Prepreliminary test and the ones on the Preliminary test are forward outside and inside edges.

Good points in the rest of the post!

Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up.

I probably should have added that spirals come up again on the Novice MIF test and Senior MIF test, where both female and male skaters must do spirals on left, right, inside, outside, forward and backward edges.

antmanb said:
Are you sure you have that the right way round? Imagine doing a bauer where the leading leg is the left leg on a LFO edge and the trailing leg is on a RBI edge. I don't think that would required as much turnout going in a straightline as it would do do the same move with the leading leg on a LFI edge and the trailing leg being on a RBI edge.

Ant

When both feet are on an inside edge, you are going to be doing an inside Ina Bauer, i.e., you will be on an inside curve, not going straight. In an inside Bauer, less turnout is required, particularly since you don't have to push your pelvis forward. On an outside Bauer (leading foot on an outside edge so you go straight or on an outside curve), much more turnout is required. Incidentally, I find that the outside Bauer requires at least as much turnout as the outside spread eagle. The Bauer strains the knee of my back leg unless I do plies against the boards first to open up my hips. Although I always do them in my programs, I don't think it would be fair to make Bauers and spread eagles required moves because some people's hip joints are just not structured in a way that allows them to do them safely. Hydroblades are good moves to do instead if the skater doesn't have open hips.

Is the Spiral Overrated?

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty

mskater93

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

TtonyV7

Joesitz (RIP)

mskater93

vlaurend

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

Clarice

mskater93

Joesitz (RIP)

mskater93

Clarice

Clarice

gkelly

antmanb

vlaurend

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