Patrick Chan Landing the Quad

Buttercup · Aug 8, 2009

I'm glad my previous post worked for some of you - I wanted to strike the right balance and I hope I did

.

I would like to clarify my Buttle/Chan point, however: what I meant is that internationally, we usually see one skater/team backed as their federation's no. 1, and this has an effect on the way they are perceived and on their scoring. This is expecially true in dance (the rise and fall of K/N) but also, to a lesser extent, in the other disciplines. Had Jeffrey Buttle stayed in competitive skating, he would have been that guy for Skate Canada, by virtue of a long and successful career and, of course, as the reigning world champion. And in that situation, Chan might have still been viewed as the second Canadian guy, the young one to look for in the future, and this would have had an impact on his PCS - because that's how skating works.

There's no way to prove it, but I think if that were the case, we'd have seen scoring for Chan that is more similar to Abbott's and Kozuka's results in 2008-9 - really good marks when they're on, but noticeably lower when they're not.

AFAIK, Buttle is mostly involved in show skating and choreography these days. I really like the programs he did for Fedor Andreev last year, which Fedor is keeping for the coming season. The Violin concerto LP in particular is lovely.

anne-marie · Aug 12, 2009

I am sorry but the free program on Phantom of Opera by CHAN at the Liberty was ugly. Poor choregraphy. No expression. Bad technics. He may improve along the season. But this program does not fit him. I remember beautiful programs on this Phantom: Daisuke of course, and Pang/Tong.
I am afraid and sure that politically, CHAN will be overmarked because he is a canadian in Vancouver.

dorispulaski · Aug 12, 2009

anne-marie, welcome to Golden Skate!

shine · Aug 12, 2009

jennylovskt said:
I do not see any one here in this thread against Canadians.

That is true, but there IS a certain poster here who has been amazingly consistent when it comes to inserting little digs at Canadian skaters in general, whenever he gets a chance (Buttercup, don't worry, I'm not talking about you

). Even I, who is far from being a crazy Canadian fan, have noticed it for a long time. But back to the discussion:
I love Chan, but I don't think he'll be "unbeatable" if he goes clean. Or rather, I could say the same thing for about 3 other skaters.
ETA: Just wanted to add that I'm actually a big Chan Fan, and glad he landed a pretty good quad. Although I don't know if it would've been completed rotated if we had slowmo.

Ladskater · Aug 12, 2009

Okay, I am generally igonoring the negative comments here. Yes, Patrick Chan is Canadian and yes the Olympics are being held here in Vancouver. Yes, Patrick Chan has had a meteoric rise the last couple of years - but that is due to his hard work and dedication to the sport of figure skating. His long time coach - the late Osborne Colson was a Canadian men's champion in 1936 & 1937. He also toured with Ice Follies and coached Barbara Ann Scott, Donald Jackson and other famous skaters. He taught Patrick from an early age and instilled in Patrick a love for skating and a good work ethic. Osborne Colson taught Patrick how to skate - the old school method. I think that has something to do with Patrick's wonderful edge control and ability on the blade.

Patrick knows he will need the quad under his belt to compete at the Olympics. It's good to hear that he is working on the quad.

All Canadian althletes are working hard and are prepared to give it their all when 2010 finally arrives. Of course, they would like to be on the Podium but I am sure most will just be happy to have the experience of the Olympics. Canadian althletes play fair - they all get there through hard work and dedication to their sport. Most have to support themselves and pay for their own expenses.

I am proud of Patrick and look forward to seeing him skate this season and at the Olympics. I know he will "do us proud" as the saying goes. Canada has a long legacy of great male skaters - and Patrick will join the ranks.

Here is info about Patrick and his coach the great Osborne Colson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Colson

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen...d=156070ad-2dee-42a0-8c75-54b8912fbce6&k=6105

http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/OsborneColsonMemorialHomePage.html

nubka · Aug 13, 2009

Germanice said:
I've heard Todd Eldredge once landed one quad as well ... :yes:

LOL!!! :agree:

Buttercup · Aug 13, 2009

shine said:
That is true, but there IS a certain poster here who has been amazingly consistent when it comes to inserting little digs at Canadian skaters in general, whenever he gets a chance (Buttercup, don't worry, I'm not talking about you ). Even I, who is far from being a crazy Canadian fan, have noticed it for a long time.

I should hope not. I'm a girl.

Also, I've made an effort not to over-snark. I'll probably never be a Joannie or Patrick fan, but it has nothing to do with their nationality. So long as they're not overmarked (not really an issue with Joannie anyway) I don't see any point in writing anything negative; and as I noted, negativity about overmarking should be directed at the judges.

I love Chan, but I don't think he'll be "unbeatable" if he goes clean. Or rather, I could say the same thing for about 3 other skaters.

It's hard to say what the judges will do. Plushy is a wild card, but you're probably right that there are several people who will be very hard to beat if they skate clean. Of course, who knows how many people will go clean... I just watched Candeloro's D'Artagnan free skate from Nagano, and it was great fun, but really, for that to have been good enough for second on the night and third overall, well - it just shows that anything can happen in the Olympics (see also: Shizuka Arakawa, Sarah Hughes, the 1994 men's podium, etc.).

Ladskater said:
All Canadian althletes are working hard and are prepared to give it their all when 2010 finally arrives. Of course, they would like to be on the Podium but I am sure most will just be happy to have the experience of the Olympics. Canadian althletes play fair - they all get there through hard work and dedication to their sport. Most have to support themselves and pay for their own expenses.

I think we can safely assume this is true for most Olympic athletes, not just the Canadians. I actually think it's easier for Canadian athletes than for those from some countries simply because it's part of the local sports culture, and there are excellent training facilities and coaching. Think of someone like Tugba Karademir, or the Zaretskis: they come from countries with basically no winter sports tradition. That's a much harder path to take.

antmanb · Aug 13, 2009

Buttercup said:
It's hard to say what the judges will do. Plushy is a wild card, but you're probably right that there are several people who will be very hard to beat if they skate clean. Of course, who knows how many people will go clean... I just watched Candeloro's D'Artagnan free skate from Nagano, and it was great fun, but really, for that to have been good enough for second on the night and third overall, well - it just shows that anything can happen in the Olympics (see also: Shizuka Arakawa, Sarah Hughes, the 1994 men's podium, etc.).

Oh i don't know, i'm not a Candeloro fan at all but i really liked that LP, and he hit 8 triples IIRC two triple axels and a 3/3 - that's pretty good going jump wise (the last two world medalists haven't done much better!) though even for 6.0 the spins were pretty mediocre/poor but the whole theme of the programme really worked for me. Elvis was skating while seriously injured and still managed most of his content. Todd fell and Alexei was sick as a dog (and still a bit of Mishin lacking presentation skills skater) but overall their programmes weren't that bad. Steven was often a train wreck but i think he was ok an managed to stand one of his triple axels to round out the top 6.

Ant

Buttercup · Aug 13, 2009

antmanb said:
Oh i don't know, i'm not a Candeloro fan at all but i really liked that LP, and he hit 8 triples IIRC two triple axels and a 3/3 - that's pretty good going jump wise (the last two world medalists haven't done much better!) though even for 6.0 the spins were pretty mediocre/poor but the whole theme of the programme really worked for me.

The program is very entertaning and he certainly sold it. It's something that's missing today: a fun concept program (thought Contesti had one in 2008-9). But the spins are bad even for 6.0, the jumps took forever to set up and some of the landings were kind of iffy, he stepped out of the landing on the solo 3A, and he's not the most graceful skater. Despite all this, it's a very enjoyable program; but skating-wise, I don't know...

I remember that several people were sick/injured in Nagano, and Alexei looking like the undead. Which just shows that Olympic medals are to some degree a function of seizing opportunities rather than pure talent: I mean, for those scoring at home, that's Candeloro 2, Kurt Browning 0 :eek:

.

To bring us back on topic: could two skaters be more different than Chan and Candeloro? Other than the lack of a quad (in competition so far)

?

antmanb · Aug 13, 2009

Buttercup said:
I remember that several people were sick/injured in Nagano, and Alexei looking like the undead. Which just shows that Olympic medals are to some degree a function of seizing opportunities rather than pure talent: I mean, for those scoring at home, that's Candeloro 2, Kurt Browning 0 .

Therein lies the proof of the pressure cooker tha is the Olympic Games. At least nowadays even with a fall on a jump in the SP you don't take yourself out of contention anymore.

Buttercup said:
To bring us back on topic: could two skaters be more different than Chan and Candeloro? Other than the lack of a quad (in competition so far) ?

To be honest I think you could substitue the name Chan and replace it with anyone!! Candeloro really was a unique skater (and often not in a good way!). It always tickled me that the French fed had as their number 1 male and female skaters two pretty unconventional skaters at the same time.

Ant

Tinymavy15 · Sep 12, 2009

update on Patrick from Icenetwork:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090911&content_id=6908264&vkey=ice_news

merrybari · Sep 12, 2009

Good read. Landing them in practice is a far different thing from competition. He may find it more daunting than he knows. I wish him well in the attempt. I agree it's not worth much if you can't finish the rest of thr program or if the rest of the program doesn't have much content. I hope trying for the quad doesn't mess up what he already does so well.

bekalc · Sep 12, 2009

merrybari said:
Good read. Landing them in practice is a far different thing from competition. He may find it more daunting than he knows. I wish him well in the attempt. I agree it's not worth much if you can't finish the rest of thr program or if the rest of the program doesn't have much content. I hope trying for the quad doesn't mess up what he already does so well.

I know. One thing that really rubbed me wrong in the whole Chan/Joubert thing at worlds was Chan's coach saying well Chan can do the quad too, so big deal. I was annoyed because I'm like sure because landing the quad once in awhile in practice is the exact same thing as landing the quad in competition. And Joubert is normally good for at least one quad in the short or long.

Actually I get the impression from the article that he's likely not to do it to be frank. Unless it seems like he has no choice.

shine · Sep 12, 2009

This is kinda OT, but I wonder if Chan would have an easier time landing the quad/axel if he's not doing the crazy amount of transitions that he's doing. And suppose his jumps would get better with less transitions, would people rather him taking those out and make landing jumps his top priority? I also wonder if skaters like Plushenko or Joubert would be able to land their jumps as effortlessly as they are now if they were doing the kind of transitions that Chan does.

Hsuhs · Sep 12, 2009

shine said:
I also wonder if skaters like Plushenko or Joubert would be able to land their jumps as effortlessly as they are now if they were doing the kind of transitions that Chan does.

Plushy's TR marks were ones of the highest back in his competition days.

bekalc · Sep 12, 2009

shine said:
This is kinda OT, but I wonder if Chan would have an easier time landing the quad/axel if he's not doing the crazy amount of transitions that he's doing. And suppose his jumps would get better with less transitions, would people rather him taking those out and make landing jumps his top priority? I also wonder if skaters like Plushenko or Joubert would be able to land their jumps as effortlessly as they are now if they were doing the kind of transitions that Chan does.

I dont' know by all reports Chan really struggles with the 3 axel in practice...It's amazing he lands the 3 axel in competition as much as he does. Maybe he'd be a bit more consistent on the other jumps with less transitions.

Frankly I think there should be a good balance between transitions and jumps. This is not ice dancing, transitions should not come at the expense of jumps. But nor do we want to see no transitions either. It would be nice to see the most balanced guy win.

jennylovskt · Sep 12, 2009

bekalc said:
This is not ice dancing, transitions should not come at the expense of jumps. But nor do we want to see no transitions either.

I agree with this.

In the article:

Whether the quad will be part of his competition repertoire this season will be a game-time decision, Chan said. He used the analogy of Tiger Woods always having the driver in his bag but only using it when he is hitting it well.

I am sorry, but it sounded like Johnny again.

"I think Kurt [Browning] and Brian [Orser] can tell you the same story about Calgary [1988 Olympics]. I'm just going through what they went through. Luckily, I've had better preparation than they had [concerning the pressure]. And I have the right people around me to help me out." ....

Looking ahead to the Olympics, Chan forecasts that reigning world champion Evan Lysacek and bronze medalist Brian Joubert will be his main contenders and that any of the other men who ranked behind them at the world championships could factor into the equation.

I might be able to become a fan of his skating, but I am definitely not a fan of his mouth.

He must have forgotten that Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. Evan Lysacek is not a front runner.

Ginask8s · Sep 12, 2009

jennylovskt said:
I agree with this.

In the article:

I am sorry, but it sounded like Johnny again.

I might be able to become a fan of his skating, but I am definitely not a fan of his mouth.

He must have forgotten that Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. Evan Lysacek is not a front runner.

I have to agree. Chan used to be my favorite new skater, but he acts a bit to confident for a kid who has not been on the circuit for that long. I hope he just skates. Ialso hope he brings the quad, because this is mens figure skating and if you can do it, you should. As a matter of fact,I hope that the medal is decided upon by who does the 2nd quad in the program!!!

Buttercup · Sep 13, 2009

jennylovskt said:
I might be able to become a fan of his skating, but I am definitely not a fan of his mouth.

He must have forgotten that Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. Evan Lysacek is not a front runner.

I've got to give Chan a pass on this one. First, it's no different than Joubert (or other skaters) naming one or two skaters that he views as the main contenders. I don't expect a list of everyone who might conceivably end up in the gala. Also, we don't know how the question was phrased, and he may have been asked specifically about the people who skated in 2009. I agree that Evan Lysacek will need to be very lucky to get on the Olympic podium, but the men are so unpredictable, it's certainly not out of the question.

shine said:
I also wonder if skaters like Plushenko or Joubert would be able to land their jumps as effortlessly as they are now if they were doing the kind of transitions that Chan does.

Nothing personal, I'm just using your post on an example... but I am really tired of hearing about Chan's transitions and how other skaters would never be able to accomplish anything if they attempted something similar. Chan's very good, but he is not the only skater who does a lot of transitions, and transitions are one fifth of the PCS, not the only basis for judging performances - which more and more it seems like they have become. Even looking just at PCS, I think Chan has some work to do on interpretation and P&E - he's skating to music, I don't see him interpreting it as well as some (it's ok, he's still young) and his projection to the audience can improve as well (again - this can improve in time).

Ginask8s said:
I hope that the medal is decided upon by who does the 2nd quad in the program!!!

I hope it's based on who skates the most complete program. A second quad would be great, but after 2006, I'd settle for a good event (I'll not name the ideal podium so as not to jinx anyone :biggrin:

).

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 13, 2009

jennylovskt said:
I agree with this.

In the article:

I am sorry, but it sounded like Johnny again.

I might be able to become a fan of his skating, but I am definitely not a fan of his mouth.

He must have forgotten that Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. Evan Lysacek is not a front runner.

It does seem that of all the things he said, this is easily dismissible (in other words, if he hadn't said anything else to offend people, we'd give him a pass on this, but because we find his mouth a bit uncensored, we'll jump on him for everything.). Joubert said that only Lysacek was his competition before worlds because of the quad (which still bugs me). Lysacek said that doing so well at 4CC was a great indicator for his chances at worlds because the Europeans only had Joubert (of course, he won, but Verner was in it for a medal and Contesti rounded out the top five.) I'm not sure the difference

Buttercup said:
Nothing personal, I'm just using your post on an example... but I am really tired of hearing about Chan's transitions and how other skaters would never be able to accomplish anything if they attempted something similar. Chan's very good, but he is not the only skater who does a lot of transitions, and transitions are one fifth of the PCS, not the only basis for judging performances - which more and more it seems like they have become. Even looking just at PCS, I think Chan has some work to do on interpretation and P&E - he's skating to music, I don't see him interpreting it as well as some (it's ok, he's still young) and his projection to the audience can improve as well (again - this can improve in time).

While it's often used to prop Chan up, do you think it's false? Or more accurately, do you think that the jump content we associate with Joubert, Yagudin or Plushenko (quads, axels, etc) can be performed with the level of transitions/footwork/spins required nowadays? Plushenko, as someone stated, always got high scores for his transitions, but would he score as highly now?

Patrick Chan Landing the Quad

Buttercup

anne-marie

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

shine

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

nubka

Buttercup

antmanb

Buttercup

antmanb

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

merrybari

bekalc

shine

Hsuhs

bekalc

jennylovskt

Ginask8s

Buttercup

ImaginaryPogue

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