Lysacek's triple Axel

Mathman · Jan 7, 2010

Not to start another Plushenko fight

, but on the other thread we were reminded of Evgeni's remark that Lysacek's triple Axel has so much pre-rotation that it is more like a Salchow.

To me, it is not exactly pre-rotation, but rather the fact that he throws his picking leg way out to the side. Anyway, the result of this unusual technique is that he actually rotates only about three revolutions ion the air. The judges don't seem to mind it, though.

Any comments by jump experts?

Blades of Passion · Jan 7, 2010

I feel that any jump is allowed to pre-rotate half a turn. I don't personally find it to be ideal technique for the Axel, but as long as the skater is JUMPING it doesn't really matter. The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

n_halifax · Jan 7, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
I feel that any jump is allowed to pre-rotate half a turn. I don't personally find it to be ideal technique for the Axel, but as long as the skater is JUMPING it doesn't really matter. The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

I would tend to agree - it's not the finest 3axel out there but it is still clean enough. I've seen some much skaters with absolutely atrocious jump technique over the years and I wouldn't put Evan on that list. Not the most attractive yes but that's not a big issue IMO.

Tinymavy15 · Jan 7, 2010

Despite his "bad technique" Evan is very consistent with this jump the past few years. I remember him having trouble with it earlier in his career, but it seems once he started working on the quad full time the triple axel held up for him. His technique on this jump is very un-Carroll, and I am surprised that Frank did not try to "re-work" the jump when Evan joined forces with him, but I guess they took the attitude of "if it an't broke don't fix it" which like it or not, is working for him.

adoreyuna · Jan 7, 2010

Personally, I am not an expert.

In pictures, we can see 3 kinds of axel marks.

Mark #1 is an ideal take-off.
Most skaters have mark #2.
Mark #3 is poor technique but not restricted.

When people learn an axel jump, the coach usually says "Do not make a lot of skids." and "Take off, making few skids as long as you can."

Evan is very very tall, so when he jumps 3 Axel, he needs more powers than the other skaters. With reagard to an axel take-off, comparison with shorter skaters than Evan is unequal contrast in my humble opinion.

inside edge · Jan 7, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

:yes::yes:

jcoates · Jan 7, 2010

I'm glad somebody finally pointed this out. He's 6'-freaking-2" for goodness sake. There is a reason why you can count the number of elite level skating champions in that height range on one hand. The only other one I can think of off the top of my head is Robin Cousins.

The typical skater's body is a good five or six inches shorter than Evan at least. The fact that he can rotate, much less land, triples and quads with his body type as consistently as he does is pretty remarkable when you take the physics into account.

psycho · Jan 7, 2010

Just because he's tall, that doesn't give him a pass on crappy technique and underrotated jumps. This is a sporting event, not kindergarten.

Hey, Tomas is a sensitive boy. Maybe we can overlook that he pops his jumps, the fact that he gets out there, in front of all these people, is remarkable, if you take psychology into account.

EyesOfLove · Jan 7, 2010

adoreyuna said:
Evan is very very tall, so when he jumps 3 Axel, he needs more powers than the other skaters. With reagard to an axel take-off, comparison with shorter skaters than Evan is unequal contrast in my humble opinion.

What about Mao's 3A?

adoreyuna · Jan 7, 2010

EyesOfLove said:
What about Mao's 3A?

Ha Ha

, I am absolutely a beginner, so it is not appropriate for me to say her 3A especially in this thread. I am sorry. :biggrin:

antmanb · Jan 7, 2010

EyesOfLove said:
What about Mao's 3A?

Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek

I've been thinking more and more about this. HIs triple axel is nothing like a salchow. While the mechanics of the jumps are similar and people tend to learner the lower axel and higher salchow at around the same time and both help in getting the other, there's a very big difference to being on that inside edge for the sal and the outside edge for the axel, the skaters no matter how pre-rotated and how much they skid stay on that outside edge up until the point they take off.

That got me to thinking that maybe Evan should lobby to have the toe-less Lutz made a listed jump and perform his triple axel as a toe-less lutz - skid it round on the ice until he is completely 180 from the step onto the LFO edge (maybe even clean it up to be a proper rocker) and bam - the first triple toe-less lutz in competition :laugh:

Ant

seniorita · Jan 7, 2010

I've been thinking more and more about this. HIs triple axel is nothing like a salchow.

Ant, you dare to question the MMMMmaaasssttteeerrr???

Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek

wait a little while, hughes' URs will make a cameo appearance :biggrin:

EyesOfLove · Jan 7, 2010

antmanb said:
Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek

Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.

antmanb · Jan 7, 2010

EyesOfLove said:
Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.

It is off topic and harping on about a half turn cheat on Moa's triple axel will ruin yet another thread with pointless bot wars. Can't you at least keep the comments on Moa and Yuna to threads about them and the ladiezzzzzzz?

Ant

janetfan · Jan 7, 2010

EyesOfLove said:
Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.

I always thought a skater's height would have a big effect on jumps and make them more difficult for taller skaters.

Recently gsrossano commented about this and had a different view citing "body type" as more of a factor than height.

Since there have not been that many tall singles skaters over the years one has to wonder if triple and quad jumps are more difficult for taller skaters?

I have no idea - and gsrossano's comments did make good sense.
Any other thoughts about height as it relates to jumping?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 7, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
I feel that any jump is allowed to pre-rotate half a turn. I don't personally find it to be ideal technique for the Axel, but as long as the skater is JUMPING it doesn't really matter. The bigger problem with Evan's technique is thalt he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

Many skating jumps do prerotate especially edge jumps. I think it is in the interest of sport that the definition of an element should be considered. Judges seem to be quite forgiving on that aspect of sport

So no problem with Evan's 3A. There are minus GoEs to put to use- an option that some judges may take.

I certainly agree with your view that his 3A doesn't travel but it satisfies the CoP.

It's a nitpicking point which should be discussed after a comp and not before one. Evan's 3A has been discussed many times before. Give a skater a break and see if the skater has corrected the prior post season's nitpicking.

Remember, there is more to winning a championship than one nitpick.

SkatingAnalyst · Jan 7, 2010

ISU Rule

This is one of ISU RULEs about cheated jumps.

Cheated take off A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a
cheated jump.
The toe-loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The Technical
Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and
downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences

OHgal · Jan 7, 2010

I'm feeling a little dense this morning (not enough coffee yet :laugh:

)

Can someone please explain why tall skaters have more trouble with rotating jumps? I can see why a ....er, wider skater would have more trouble rotating. But what's the difference between being a tall, thin jumper and a short, thin jumper, as long as they can get the jump height? They are rotating on the vertical axis, not doing back flips!

Off to find that coffee...... :laugh:

Hsuhs · Jan 7, 2010

OHgal said:
Can someone please explain why tall skaters have more trouble with rotating jumps?

I've been thinking about this, and my theory is like this. That it's maybe the limbs length that makes the whole neurons-muscles cooperation tougher. It simply takes more time for signals from the brain to reach the limbs. Of course we are talking about milliseconds here, but there's so many muscles involved in a jump, that it may be significant.

antmanb · Jan 7, 2010

OHgal said:
I'm feeling a little dense this morning (not enough coffee yet )

Can someone please explain why tall skaters have more trouble with rotating jumps? I can see why a ....er, wider skater would have more trouble rotating. But what's the difference between being a tall, thin jumper and a short, thin jumper, as long as they can get the jump height? They are rotating on the vertical axis, not doing back flips!

Off to find that coffee......

I don't know the real answer but my guess would be that somene who is shorter will find it easier to keep their whole body on the axis around which you rotate when you jump.

The longer you are the more difficult it is to keep everything perfectly aligned in the air. It would also be fair to say that the shorter you are, if you do go off axis it is likely to affect the jump less than if you are taller, and also the shorter skater is more likely to be able to save a jump that goes slightly off axis.

Also i think the proper scientific answer may have something to do with centre of gravity...but i don't know what!

Ant

Lysacek's triple Axel

Mathman

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

n_halifax

Guest

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

adoreyuna

inside edge

jcoates

psycho

EyesOfLove

adoreyuna

antmanb

seniorita

EyesOfLove

antmanb

janetfan

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

SkatingAnalyst

OHgal

Hsuhs

antmanb

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