Sasha & Rockne???

i love to skate said:

Again, where are you getting the information to make statements like this?? NNN has said in previous interviews about how much she loved sharing the challenges and rewards with someone and being able to celebrate your successes together.

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Yes, we have all heard every skater say their scripted interviews. I'm talking about real human psychology.

i love to skate said:

You say that NNN was more successful as a pairs skater because she managed to make the podium at Nationals. Yet, you say that the accomplishments that Inoue, Sale, Ina, Dube, and others had in singles at the National level is not success.

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That's because they didn't have success at Nationals in singles. The highest any of them ever finished was 5th, whereas in pairs they were all National Champions at least twice. That's a huge difference.

i love to skate said:

As for Galina Maniachenko, why did you brush her off when it is the exact same situation as NNN? Galina was injured and therefore had to quit pairs. Yet, she was able to resume skating and was able to compete as a singles skater - winning two National Championships, a silver medal, and even placing 4th at Europeans. So, it looks like singles is easier than pairs

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How is it the exact same situation? Galina never competed in pairs as a senior. She had some success as a junior and stopped for multiple reasons - #1 she grew too much, #2 - her partner sliced her face with his skate blade during a SbS spin. Women not being able to find a partner who is strong enough to accommodate them is not the same as pairs being more difficult and your partner messing up and traumatically injuring you is certainly a great misfortune of pairs skating, but that doesn't speak to the individual technical difficulty required by the discipline.

Her singles career was was characterized by unsteady and inconsistent jumps, poor spins, and unexciting presentation. There isn't much basis for comparison since she wasn't able to compete in pairs at the same level, but I don't think she would have been worse off there (although, for what it's worth, she was able to achieve a MUCH higher placement at World competition in pairs as a junior than she ever was in singles as a junior).

gkelly said:

There absolutely are many more skaters who can do singles tricks and cannot do pair tricks BECAUSE THEY ARE THE WRONG SIZE FOR PAIRS. So they wouldn't even try. Or they would give up long before senior level.

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Yes, but size is an outside factor. Compare people who are of the correct size for both pairs and singles and then evaluate the difficulty required by the two disciplines.

gkelly said:

Do you really think Paul Wylie would have had any success as a pair skater at the senior level?

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Had he found a great partner who was 4 foot 6 inches tall, sure. That's the thing about pairs - it is limited by the partner.

gkelly said:

How many of the singles skaters who don't have a history of skating pairs could do a triple twist lift if given the opportunity to train with an expert male pair partner?

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All of them, if they are indeed the correct size, have a great partner, and are given time to learn it. Girls who have already shown an aptitude for rotating 3 times and landing by themselves can certainly rotate 3 times and have someone catch them.

Blades of Passion said:

That's because they didn't have success at Nationals in singles. The highest any of them ever finished was 5th, whereas in pairs they were all National Champions at least twice. That's a huge difference.

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Rena Inoue
Japanese Championships: 1994: 2nd 1998: 3rd
(Also two time Junior Champion)

Kyoko Ina
US Championships: 1995: 4th
(Also US Junior and Japanese Junior Champion)

Dube and Sale had National Junior medals.

How is this any different than saying NNN is more successful because she won 1 Bronze medal at US Nationals in pairs?

Anyways, this discussion is getting repetitive and tiring. I am off to watch some videos of my favourite performances in the "less difficult and not as skilled discipline" ...

i love to skate said:

Rena Inoue
Japanese Championships: 1994: 2nd 1998: 3rd

Kyoko Ina
US Championships: 1995: 4th

How is this any different than saying NNN is more successful because she won 1 Bronze medal at US Nationals in pairs?

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Forgive me, Ina was 4th and not 5th. Huge difference.

Yes, Rena Inoue got 2nd one time in singles (with a max of 12th in the World). But look at what happened as she got older - her placements dropped drastically. Then she switched to pairs and was able to achieve 2 National titles and a max of 4th in the World. A significantly better result.

Ina's best ever at Nationals was 4th...compared to being able to win the National Titles 5 times in pairs and a World Bronze medal.

Jamie Sale and Jessica Dube - maxxed out at 5th and 6th, respectively, in singles compared to each winning 3 National Titles in pairs and getting on the World podium.

NNN - couldn't even reach Nationals in singles vs. getting a Bronze in pairs.

So, again, I maintain pairs was easier for them and is generally more easy in terms of individual technical demands.

Mathman said:

Perspective of a non-skater: I don't see how anyone can do pairs at all. For starters, in singles if you fall, you just fall. In pairs, if you drop your partner on her head you might kill somebody.

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Yeah, the idea of pairs NEVER interested me.

I'm not sure if I would say pairs takes more bravery, though. Just more trust. We drive our cars every day and don't constantly think about someone in the opposing lane swerving over and killing us (a more likely cause of death than pairs skating). It's just something you become used to because it's basically out of your control and you trust that everyone else will be vigilant.

The difficult jumps in singles though...they are completely on your own steam and the risk of (very painfully) falling is constant. How many times has a partner been dropped on a lift in competition vs. a skater falling on a big jump?

----------

All of which are examples of why I believe Sasha Cohen could be more successful in pairs at this point in her career than she can at singles. I don't think her ability to do the jumps will ever again be at a high enough level to get where she wants in singles. On the other hand, learning throws and lifts are a possibility.

Anyway, I'm not saying pairs is easy or that anyone could become a successful pairs skater. I just think that if the motivation is there, and if the partner is a correct match, it's going to be a more successful venture for many skaters.

I think pairs skating is something that is better able to be learned through extensive practice, whereas singles depends more on an innate talent...a talent that becomes comparably more difficult to hold onto as you get older. It could just come down to fast muscle twitch fibers but, regardless, it's pretty undeniable that the results of figure skating competitions suggest Pairs is an "easier" discipline for older competitors.

Why do you not use Rudy Galindo & Kristi Yamaguchi as examples? He left pairs (no small enough girl available after Kristi went to do singles exclusively), where his highest world placing was 4th or 5th. In singles his highest world placing was 3rd? He was a national champion in both pairs and singles, and a world jr champion in both pairs and singles. In fact, you could say Kristi left pairs for singles, reaching world & Olympic gold as a single, where she hadn't been able to get past 4th or 5th in pairs at the world level.

They are still AFAIK the only pair who could do sbs triple flips.

dorispulaski said:

They are still AFAIK the only pair who could do sbs triple flips.

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Ooh. Do you have a film clip?

Yamaguchi & Galindo

1989 US Nationals 1st place
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62iI8SbLm-I

1989 Skate America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0zD82UV3uc

1990 US Nationals 1st place
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_ml-B0F3c0

dorispulaski said:

Why do you not use Rudy Galindo & Kristi Yamaguchi as examples?

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Because they are people who were strong at pairs. The idea I was trying to express is that you'll never find a pairs skater who stayed on into Seniors and had significant difficulty with the pairs moves, but then moved to singles and could do all of the jumps (whereas you do see many cases of skaters who fail at the technical elements of singles but are able to do well in pairs).

It's too bad Rudy and Kristi didn't continue on. They had such unique choreography with the way they did jumps and spins in opposite directions and their difficult sbs jumps would have pushed the rest of the field to improve in that area.

Blades of Passion said:

I'm talking about real human psychology.

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Indeed, we often expect the worst. But sometimes people surprize us. Lots of people enjoy sharing their triumphs with a partner, or even with a team.

In a different direction, there is also the teacher (Brian Orser?) who eventually reaches the point in his career where he takes greater pride in the achievements of his students than in his own accomplishments.

One thing that strikes me in reading this excellent thread is that when we talk about how incredibly hard singles skills are at the top level, we are really talking about one skill only -- the ability to rotate in the air.

Well, true enough, most people can't.

Blades of Passion said:

I'm not sure if I would say pairs takes more bravery, though. Just more trust. We drive our cars every day and don't constantly think about someone in the opposing lane swerving over and killing us (a more likely cause of death than pairs skating). It's just something you become used to because it's basically out of your control and you trust that everyone else will be vigilant.

The difficult jumps in singles though...they are completely on your own steam and the risk of (very painfully) falling is constant. How many times has a partner been dropped on a lift in competition vs. a skater falling on a big jump?

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Okay, to the bolded part - WHAT?!? Pairs skaters are known throughout the sports world as the bravest and toughest athletes. Besides also having the risk of falling on your own accord (SBS), you don't think it is more dangerous to do a throw, twist or lift?? How many concussions are there in singles skating vs. pairs skating?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guB5CCg09QY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CsffEfxQus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swMugi75xB0&feature=related

CBC also did a great fluff on pair skating during Canadians - should be on their website. http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Championship_Figure_Skating_on_CBC/Full_Events/ID=1387745033

Plus you have the injuries to Berenzyna, Dube, Langlois, Castile, and Duhamel, just to name a few.

Mathman said:

One thing that strikes me in reading this excellent thread is that when we talk about how incredibly hard singles skills are at the top level, we are really talking about one skill only -- the ability to rotate in the air.

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That is a very good point Mathman. :yes:

In singles, it is: jumping, spinning, footwork, and MITF.

In pairs, it is: jumping, throwing, spinning together, spinning apart, footwork, spiral sequences, death spirals, lifts, and twists.

When you take into account how many different lifts and death spirals there are - that is sooo many elements!

Blades of Passion said:

Yeah, the idea of pairs NEVER interested me.

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Duly noted...I suspect you are just not educated enough in pairs skating to appreciate the discipline and the reasons behind skaters getting involved in the first place. Although it’s true some grow too big too fast and have to reassess their place in the sport of skating. There is a huge difference between the top pairs in the world and bottom pairs, not all of them are good and most of them switch partners or quit because of the demand on placed them. You not only have to physically match but mentally and emotionally as well. And we all have seen with M/T what happens when pairs don’t get along.

I’m glad there are people who can appreciate the pairs sport for what it is. But for someone to think that Yuna Kim is a better athlete than Xue Shen really needs to have their head examined.

mousepotato said:

Duly noted...

I’m glad there are people who can appreciate the pairs sport for what it is. But for someone to think that Yuna Kim is a better athlete than Xue Shen really needs to have their head examined.

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Thanks for articulating my thoughts...

Blades of Passion said:

All of them, if they are indeed the correct size, have a great partner, and are given time to learn it. Girls who have already shown an aptitude for rotating 3 times and landing by themselves can certainly rotate 3 times and have someone catch them.

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If getting a triple twist is as simple as you say, why do Meagan Duhamel, Rena Inoue, Annabelle Langlois, etc. have such problems with it? The triple twist is a completely different skill requiring it's own specific technique that some skaters do well and some do not, no matter what their solo triple jump looks like. A brilliant pair skater like Elena Berezhnaya had a good 3T, but had substantial problems with the triple twist her whole career. Amongst the top pair teams in the world, very few of them execute the triple twist correctly. It took forever for Dube/Davison to get one that looked even remotely SAFE, never mind well done. I think the triple twist has to be one of the hardest skills in all of skating, and there's no way every girl with a solo triple could do this element. In fact, I would say most girls cannot do this element.

Blades of Passion said:

Yes, Rena Inoue got 2nd one time in singles (with a max of 12th in the World). But look at what happened as she got older - her placements dropped drastically. Then she switched to pairs and was able to achieve 2 National titles and a max of 4th in the World. A significantly better result.

So, again, I maintain pairs was easier for them and is generally more easy in terms of individual technical demands.

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Rena Inoue did not "switch to pairs". She was competing pairs internationally even before singles. Just because she ultimately dropped singles to focus exclusively on pairs does not mean pairs is easier than singles. Inoue may have shown greater ability for pairs, but for all we know, she may have been more focused on pairs than on singles her entire career.

Blades of Passion said:

The difficult jumps in singles though...they are completely on your own steam and the risk of (very painfully) falling is constant. How many times has a partner been dropped on a lift in competition vs. a skater falling on a big jump?

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With two or three solo jumps, two throws, and three lifts, the risk of falling very painfully is just as great in pairs, if not greater. I'd much rather fall on a jump than on a lift or a throw, where the tendency to have a terrible fall is much higher.

Blades of Passion said:

it's pretty undeniable that the results of figure skating competitions suggest Pairs is an "easier" discipline for older competitors.

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I don't think it's an easier discipline at all for older competitors who are injury prone and have never done pairs before.

I think one of the main reasons why pair competitors are "older" is not because the discipline is "easier", but because instant success isn't really possible like it may be in singles. Teenage pair skaters need a while to gel with their partner and get stronger before getting on an Olympic podium. So the tendency will be for pair skaters to stick around longer, whereas someone like Yu-Na may retire at age 18 or 19 because she's won everything already. But even the Ladies' Olympic podiums have been getting pretty "old" lately, especially 2006.

In general, you seem to be underestimating how difficult pair skating can be.

All good points.

gold12345 said:

If getting a triple twist is as simple as you say, why do Meaghan Duhamel, Rena Inoue, Annabelle Langlois, etc. have such problems with it? The triple twist is a completely different skill requiring it's own specific technique that some skaters do well and some do not, no matter what their solo triple jump looks like.

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Also, a really bad twist can end with a fall for one or both partners, but there can also be bad twists that are underrotated and crashy and two-footed and might even result in fairly serious injury with the girl's elbow hitting the guy's face, but because the girl was caught in the air and set down successfully to a casual observer it might look as though it was executed acceptably.

Casual observers might not recognize cheated or two-footed jumps, but they can easily recognize falls or step outs from jumps, so it may appear that the success rate on the jumps is lower than on the twists when that is not necessarily the case.

i love to skate said:

WHAT?!? Pairs skaters are known throughout the sports world as the bravest and toughest athletes.

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Apples to oranges. How many skaters would want to go flying down a mountain side? It certainly takes bravery to do all of the difficult singles jumps as well. There is constant fear of hard falls or real injury when doing big, difficult jumps. Thus, I stand by my statement. I don't think pairs skaters are any more brave, there is just an added level of trust that needs to be gained between a pair.

gold12345 said:

If getting a triple twist is as simple as you say, why do Meagan Duhamel, Rena Inoue, Annabelle Langlois, etc. have such problems with it? The triple twist is a completely different skill requiring it's own specific technique that some skaters do well and some do not, no matter what their solo triple jump looks like. A brilliant pair skater like Elena Berezhnaya had a good 3T, but had substantial problems with the triple twist her whole career. Amongst the top pair teams in the world, very few of them execute the triple twist correctly. It took forever for Dube/Davison to get one that looked even remotely SAFE, never mind well done. I think the triple twist has to be one of the hardest skills in all of skating, and there's no way every girl with a solo triple could do this element. In fact, I would say most girls cannot do this element.

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I know it's a different technique and I never said it was simple. To clarify - I also never said anyone who can do a simple Triple jump can do a Triple Twist. I said singles skaters who are strong jumpers in general (ie - not just a consistent Triple Toe, but consistent on the more difficult Triples) and the correct size for pairs surely would have been able to do that move. Many pairs have been doing the Triple Twist consistently since the early 80's. Pairs have continued to increase the size and difficulty of the twist over the years, but it's not such an incredibly daunting move that only a select few can do it.

Regarding the first part of your statement - Meagan Duhamel, Rena Inoue, Annabelle Langlois are not great at spinning in the air. Rena Inoue would have stayed in singles if she was.

You again have to look at the partners as well. If they aren't throwing the girl into the air properly then the twist isn't gonna work.

As for Elena Berezhnaya, the poor girl has bits of metal stuck in her brain. Don't blame her getting dizzy during the 3Twist. It's not like she bombed on the move either. It was just a bit crashy at times. She still pretty much always rotated it and stayed on one foot when landing, making all of those attempts successful ones.

gold12345 said:

Rena Inoue did not "switch to pairs". She was competing pairs internationally even before singles. Just because she ultimately dropped singles to focus exclusively on pairs does not mean pairs is easier than singles. Inoue may have shown greater ability for pairs, but for all we know, she may have been more focused on pairs than on singles her entire career.

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She dropped pairs early in her career to do singles exclusively for 7 years. It's clear that she had a greater desire to be a singles skater and only after a long and mostly disappointing run in singles did she go back to pairs.

gold12345 said:

With two or three solo jumps, two throws, and three lifts, the risk of falling very painfully is just as great in pairs, if not greater. I'd much rather fall on a jump than on a lift or a throw, where the tendency to have a terrible fall is much higher.

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There might be potential for worse falls from lifts but at the same time the girl doesn't specifically have to worry about that. She isn't doing all the work. Constantly doing difficult Triple jumps in singles puts the burden solely on yourself. I believe more women could consistently get lifted by a man and do those positions than they could consistently land a Triple Loop, Flip, and Lutz. And if you bring the Triple Axel into it (or also difficult Triple-Triple combinations, to be fair), that's no contest. Far more women could do the pairs moves if they trained in that discipline than they could consistently perform those difficult jump elements.

gold12345 said:

In general, you seem to be underestimating how difficult pair skating can be.

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mousepotato said:

I suspect you are just not educated enough in pairs skating to appreciate the discipline

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Oh, I appreciate it. I'm just debating with actual statistical analysis here.

There seems to a misunderstanding about what I'm debating. I'm talking solely about the physical demands placed on individual pairs skaters. Yes, the moves might be very risky and take a long time to learn and such, but that doesn't mean they require the same physical prowess or as specific of a talent. Just an opinion.

gold12345 said:

I think one of the main reasons why pair competitors are "older" is not because the discipline is "easier", but because instant success isn't really possible like it may be in singles. Teenage pair skaters need a while to gel with their partner and get stronger before getting on an Olympic podium.

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Right, but again, that just means it takes longer to learn. It doesn't speak to physical demand or individual innate talent.

If you account for pairs having a higher learning curve, it still doesn't answer the question of why pairs are able to compete at a much older age than singles skaters are. If the learning curve of pairs is higher, but the individual physical demand is just as great, it would simply mean the window that pairs teams have to be competitive would be smaller. Which hasn't been the case.

So, going back to the original point of the thread, I am still convinced that Sasha's potential future in Figure Skating would have a higher success rate in pairs, given the opportunity of a partnership with Rockne Brubaker. I believe he is an absolutely SUPERB pairs skater. Easily the best American male pairs skater since John Zimmerman.

Blades of Passion said:

So, going back to the original point of the thread, I am still convinced that Sasha's potential future in Figure Skating would have a higher success rate in pairs, given the opportunity of a partnership with Rockne Brubaker. I believe he is an absolutely SUPERB pairs skater.

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LOL, Rockne has the potential to be the best pairs skater but has a loooong way to go. He's not even close to any of to any of the top men in China or Russia. If Sasha would have expressed a serious interest in pairs, started seaching for a partner and training SERIOUSLY ..... maybe I would have given her the benefit of the doubt but she didn't even take her own training seriously to defend an Olympic medal so I doubt she would care very much about her partner. I'm afraid Rockne is on his own and if he wants to be great in four years he needs to get going on finding a partner no matter what counrtry she may be in. Four years will creep up on him faster than he thinks.

Sasha & David??? LOL

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/tarotx/sd.jpg

Courtesy FSU.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

I was wondering if that was Sasha or Jamie!

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

MKFSfan said:

I was wondering if that was Sasha or Jamie!

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How appropriate. The conspiracy continues....... Sasha? Jamie? Triple twist?
Very funny.
Or is it?
Interesting........

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

What about Rockne and Jamie? lol

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Looks like Sasha is doing a single twist in that picture. It's weird to even see Sasha practicing that.

Blades of Passion said:

I know it's a different technique and I never said it was simple. To clarify - I also never said anyone who can do a simple Triple jump can do a Triple Twist. I said singles skaters who are strong jumpers in general (ie - not just a consistent Triple Toe, but consistent on the more difficult Triples) and the correct size for pairs surely would have been able to do that move. Many pairs have been doing the Triple Twist consistently since the early 80's. Pairs have continued to increase the size and difficulty of the twist over the years, but it's not such an incredibly daunting move that only a select few can do it.

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I believe only a select few teams do a triple twist well. I don't see how having the harder triples would make a difference in one's ability to do a twist when it's such a unique skill.

Blades of Passion said:

Regarding the first part of your statement - Meagan Duhamel, Rena Inoue, Annabelle Langlois are not great at spinning in the air. Rena Inoue would have stayed in singles if she was.

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My point was these skaters are on pair teams that have been top 10 in the world recently, and even they have problems with this element. Their solo triples are better than their triple twist. The same could be said for Kavaguti, Savchenko, etc. There are many Junior and Senior pair teams who don't even compete a triple twist, never mind do it well. So many teams struggle to complete it without a weak catch or some other problem, or without clonking the guy in the face like Kyoko Ina did. So who's to say solo jumping is really so much harder than doing pairs? Each skater is different.

Blades of Passion said:

You again have to look at the partners as well. If they aren't throwing the girl into the air properly then the twist isn't gonna work.

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True. It takes two people meshing their abilities together to make this element work.

Blades of Passion said:

As for Elena Berezhnaya, the poor girl has bits of metal stuck in her brain. Don't blame her getting dizzy during the 3Twist. It's not like she bombed on the move either. It was just a bit crashy at times. She still pretty much always rotated it and stayed on one foot when landing, making all of those attempts successful ones.

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I think B/S's weak triple twist cost them at least one major title. This was never a good element for them, and she sometimes would even open up at 2.5 rotations, which obviously wasn't pretty.

I just wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of this element and pair skating in general. I don't think it would be impossible for Sasha to learn a triple twist, or any major pair element at 26 years old, but I would be very surprised if she was good at it and could handle it long term.

Blades of Passion said:

She dropped pairs early in her career to do singles exclusively for 7 years. It's clear that she had a greater desire to be a singles skater and only after a long and mostly disappointing run in singles did she go back to pairs.

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Maybe Inoue was just looking for a suitable partner? A good partner in Japan is obviously hard to come by. None of us know what Rena was thinking, but it's possible that her main passion was always for pairs. Regardless of where her focus truly was, the fact of the matter is that she begin pairs as a very young girl, and not because she was failing at singles. She became very skilled at pairs in part because she had done it from such a young age.

Blades of Passion said:

There might be potential for worse falls from lifts but at the same time the girl doesn't specifically have to worry about that. She isn't doing all the work. Constantly doing difficult Triple jumps in singles puts the burden solely on yourself. I believe more women could consistently get lifted by a man and do those positions than they could consistently land a Triple Loop, Flip, and Lutz. And if you bring the Triple Axel into it (or also difficult Triple-Triple combinations, to be fair), that's no contest. Far more women could do the pairs moves if they trained in that discipline than they could consistently perform those difficult jump elements.

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We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Of course more women can do a lift than a harder triple. But there are plenty of girls who have a solo triple but cannot do a good triple throw or a triple twist. Both disciplines are very difficult, and depending on the skater, one may be more difficult than the other.

Blades of Passion said:

There seems to a misunderstanding about what I'm debating. I'm talking solely about the physical demands placed on individual pairs skaters. Yes, the moves might be very risky and take a long time to learn and such, but that doesn't mean they require the same physical prowess or as specific of a talent. Just an opinion.

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I realize you are saying that, in your opinion, singles is more physically difficult and demanding than pairs. I think it depends on the skater and where her individual strengths lie. If I'm thinking in terms of Sasha, she may struggle with the throws especially because they are so new to her. And that may make pair skating very physically demanding on a body that is already pretty "old" and has been through a lot.

I agree that singles requires more of a specific talent, but pairs requires a wider range of talent, especially if you want to be an exceptional pair skater.