Hersh doesn't like what he's seen so far

Mathman · Nov 28, 2010

janetfan said:
What about at Worlds? Should Mao be forced to give up her WC Gold medal from last season? If we follow your logic no one could argue Mao was the best skater through the GP last season.

I don't think Joe is saying that anyone should give up any titles that they won. Whoever wins the Grand Prix wins the Grand Prix. Whoever wins the world championship wins the world championship. Whoever wins the Olympic gold medal wins the Olympic gold medal.

I think Joe is just saying that winning the Grand Prix is an impressive feat because you have to skate well several times in a row over the course of the fall season.

Whether this is more impressive or less impressive than giving a great performance once when all the chips are on the table -- I guess that is a matter of preference. (Of course if you win everything that's best of all.)

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 28, 2010

If Kazuka wins the GPF, I will be impessed for his solid wins throughout the GPs; and if he does not win the Worlds, I will still consider his 3 Fall wins as being more special than the one in the Winter. I guess if you get carried away that one competition has more prestige than any of the others, than it all becomes preference. I can think of Oly and Worlds winners whom I would not consider worthy as the best skater that season. So can anyone else. No need to mention names.

Layfan · Nov 28, 2010

My question is -How much do the skaters really "battle to make the finals?" Not in theory - in theory, yes the way the GP is structured is cool and intriguing - but in practice?

Over and over again during the GP series, we hear things like "Oh well, better he has a meltdown now than later in the season" and "I hope he's not peaking too soon," etc, from fans, skaters and coaches alike.

I think some younger skaters who are trying to break through take the GP very seriously. More experienced ones skip it all together. And some, like Mao, use it as a test run. (Whether it's smart on Mao's part this year is another question.)

Skaters don't seem to come to the GP series in peak form. I understand perfectly Joe's point about which structure really determines the very best skater in the world. But the way the GP series plays out now - too many of the best skaters don't seem to take it so seriously. I think it would be interesting to consider Janetfan's suggestion that whoever makes the final automatically gets to go to worlds. That would mean a lot to the Japanese and American skaters, anyway. Even though I find the structure of the GP series cool, in practice I don't remotely enjoy it as much as worlds because we so often see shoddy skating.

Is it interesting for fans to see skaters work and improve on their programs? Sure. But if that is what we are watching I wonder if the battle to make the final is so fierce

I think it is also interesting to consider make Worlds a more prolonged affair - like the GP is now.

Bluebonnet · Nov 28, 2010

I like Hersh. I always do. With Yu Na left and Mao's reworking her jumping technics, the ladies' field is dreary indeed.

For the men's field, it's actually more exciting in terms of both technics and artistry. What the current men's field missing is just the super consistency that Lysacek, and Plushenko brought. When they went, they took it with them. Consistency is probably Lysacek's only legacy, if he has any, left in figure skating. What Weir could contribute to actual skating he has already contributed many years ago. The current US crop alone is, with Abbott, Rippon, and Mroz, no doubt in my mind, up a notch or two from Lysacek and Weir time. Not to say that the super deep field in Japan, like Takahashi, Kozuka, Oda, Hanyu, Canada's Chan, Europe's Verner, Brezina, and Amodio, all of them have already exceeded or about to exceed Lysacek's and Weir's level. What to cry for?

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

Layfan said:
My question is -How much do the skaters really "battle to make the finals?" Not in theory - in theory, yes the way the GP is structured is cool and intriguing - but in practice?

Over and over again during the GP series, we hear things like "Oh well, better he has a meltdown now than later in the season" and "I hope he's not peaking too soon," etc, from fans, skaters and coaches alike.

I ignore those comments. If a skater is competing, he's skating his best.

I think some younger skaters who are trying to break through take the GP very seriously. More experienced ones skip it all together. And some, like Mao, use it as a test run. (Whether it's smart on Mao's part this year is another question.)

I can understand using one GP event as a test run, but another becomes a competition. I can also go along with the Mao theory (No one knows for sure that she is not trying to skate her best) but Akiko wants to win the GP Final as do 5 other ladies. If they came in with the idea of a test run, they changed their minds if they made the Finals.

Skaters don't seem to come to the GP series in peak form. I understand perfectly Joe's point about which structure really determines the very best skater in the world. But the way the GP series plays out now - too many of the best skaters don't seem to take it so seriously. I think it would be interesting to consider Janetfan's suggestion that whoever makes the final automatically gets to go to worlds. That would mean a lot to the Japanese and American skaters, anyway. Even though I find the structure of the GP series cool, in practice I don't remotely enjoy it as much as worlds because we so often see shoddy skating.

If they are not in peak form, then they are not true athletes. This 'early season' excuse is not really acceptable when there are skaters who do come prepared. Why would an athlete compete if he knows he is unprepared? The athlete who spent the summer months not skating may want to test his skating ability. Skaters are human and have individual personalities. If they pooh pooh the GPs, that's part of their personalities.

Is it interesting for fans to see skaters work and improve on their programs? Sure. But if that is what we are watching I wonder if the battle to make the final is so fierce

Figure Skating could borrow a bit of competitions from other Single Sports, like Golf, Tennis, Diving, etc, where there are competitions year round and still have their grandiose Worlds, certainly at the Senior level. The GPs are the only competition that allows for multiple skates before its Finals. Skaters should be ready for it. If not well, that's that. Some will, of course.

I think it is also interesting to consider make Worlds a more prolonged affair - like the GP is now.

I like that too, and Layfan, please do not take my retort as gospel. Much of what I wrote is JMO.

Layfan · Nov 29, 2010

Well, I did an Internet search after my post and I take back that the top ladies tend to skip the GP ... I guess I was thinking of Kim this year and Michelle in later years. But if you look back the GP Final winners - it's almost always the world champions from the past decade - Tara, Michelle, Irina, Mao, Kim Yuna, or the silver medalists - Sasha, Fumie.... So obviously, at least in those years, they did arrive GP series in peak form.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2010

Layfan said:
I think it would be interesting to consider Janetfan's suggestion that whoever makes the final automatically gets to go to worlds.

I agree. They could give the Grand Prix Final winner a free pass to Worlds as an "at large" competitor, outside the national quota. That way both the skater and the national federation would have a big skake in the outcome.

The other thing I wonder about is this. Last year the USFSA made a big announcement about changing the rules for choosing the world team. In the past, except in extraordinary circumstances involving injury, it was completely straightforward. If you had n spots they went to the skaters who finished 1 through n at U.S. Nationals, period.

But the new rules, at least on paper, say that in addition the selection committee will consider placement at international events. The Grand Prix Final is prominently listed.

If one of the two American ladies, Alissa Czisny or Rachael Flatt, medals at the Grand Proix Final this year, will that give them a leg up heading into U.S. Nationals?

Sylvia · Nov 29, 2010

Mathman said:
The other thing I wonder about is this. Last year the USFSA made a big announcement about changing the rules for choosing the world team. In the past, except in extraordinary circumstances involving injury, it was completely straightforward. If you had n spots they went to the skaters who finished 1 through n at U.S. Nationals, period.

But the new rules, at least on paper, say that in addition the selection committee will consider placement at international events. The Grand Prix Final is prominently listed.

The current World team selection rule still guarantees a Worlds spot to the senior champions in the 4 disciplines at Nationals and I thought those other international events were previously listed in the rulebook?

Are you thinking of the 2010 Olympic team selection policy where the wording was changed in June 2008 so that the 2010 national champions in each discipline were no longer guaranteed automatic selection to the Olymnpic team? It's my understanding that was more for legal purposes so that Nationals in an Olympic year would not fall under the jurisdiction of the USOC.

ETA:

If one of the two American ladies, Alissa Czisny or Rachael Flatt, medals at the Grand Proix Final this year, will that give them a leg up heading into U.S. Nationals?

I've reposted Mathman's question in the "U.S. Ladies Prediction & Speculation Thread": http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...on-amp-Speculation-Thread&p=532533#post532533

PolymerBob · Nov 29, 2010

Yes, the Olympic team was supposed to factor international events to choose competitors. The World team selection stayed the same.

In either case, the top finishers at Nationals were the team.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

If there is prestige to the Federations, then they will send the 'Best Athlete(s) to the Worlds/Olys. Why is the USA bent on sending those who happen to skate well at the one shot Nationals as the best team to represent the Federation. Do you think the French Fed will not send Amodio to Worlds because he had an unusually poor skate at French Nats and placed 4th?

Except for injuries, etc., the Selection Committe will rubber stamp the results of the US Nats as representing the finest skaters for the USA team. Do you believe it?

jenaj · Nov 29, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
It's not going to get much better as long as the scoring system and judges prefer rewarding mechanical, convoluted moves and sloppy, forced performances. I also long for Yu-Na Kim to come back but her skating will only be a more exciting version of overwrought CoP-ness rather than the true divinity of figure skating at its best.

So true. I fear that even if Yu Na comes back, the system will mar her performances as well. The explosive footwork of a Yagudin or a Michelle are impossible in the current system and who cares if skater can raise her foot above her head?

SkatingAnalyst · Nov 29, 2010

Tonya Harding made it a Top News... once upon a time... when she broke Nancy Kerrigan's leg...but
Ladies Skating was never popular in the US as it is in Japan today.

The USA never had a lady skater with whom the whole country can fall in love.
The USA need a lady skater who is as attractive as Sasha, as good as Kristi and as consistent as Michelle...then...

Ladies skating will be as popular as in Japan.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2010

SkatingAnalyst said:
The USA never had a lady skater with whom the whole country can fall in love.

Dorothy Hamill was very popular.

dorispulaski · Nov 29, 2010

As were Peggy Fleming and Carol Heiss, even if her movie was with the 3 Stooges

mousepotato · Nov 29, 2010

SkatingAnalyst said:
Tonya Harding made it a Top News... once upon a time... when she broke Nancy Kerrigan's leg...but
Ladies Skating was never popular in the US as it is in Japan today.

The USA never had a lady skater with whom the whole country can fall in love.
The USA need a lady skater who is as attractive as Sasha, as good as Kristi and as consistent as Michelle...then...

Ladies skating will be as popular as in Japan.

Sorry

but skating will never be as popular as long as there is the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS, NASCAR....etc.

Everyone could get behind Michelle Kwan because she was around a long time, staying power in any sport is what people will remember, even people who don't watch the sport at all. I would have no idea who Lance Armstrong is if he only one one Tour de France.

Maybe Japan should concentrate on other disciplines other than single skating. Or just be happy with the one medal Shizuka Arakawa got them in 2006 (and she was lucky to get that). It may happen to them again in three years.

SkatingAnalyst · Nov 29, 2010

mousepotato said:
Sorry but skating will never be as popular as long as there is the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS, NASCAR....etc.

Everyone could get behind Michelle Kwan because she was around a long time, staying power in any sport is what people will remember, even people who don't watch the sport at all. I would have no idea who Lance Armstrong is if he only one one Tour de France.

Maybe Japan should concentrate on other disciplines other than single skating. Or just be happy with the one medal Shizuka Arakawa got them in 2006 (and she was lucky to get that). It may happen to them again in three years.

It makes sense Skating will be never popular as NFL or MLB...but
They have Soccer, Baseball and Sumo Wrestling in Japan...Mao still made figure skating as a national pasttime.

We cannot underestimate the female audience...They love figure skating more than any other sports.
I firmly believe...An outstanding Skater can make the difference.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

Yeah, and in NYC, it's baseball first, followed by Football, with reasonable attendance at Tennis and Golf.

What was killing Figure Skating popularity was the tired old sameness of the sport. Same old tricks, same old music, same old costumes, and same little girls competing. It didn't matter whethr 6.0 or CoP. Nothing mature about it. Sad, but it ain't dead. There is a reasonable following as a small sport.
I think another Tara will bring in more fans, but not like in years gone bye.

Bluebonnet · Nov 30, 2010

Joesitz said:
Yeah, and in NYC, it's baseball first, followed by Football, with reasonable attendance at Tennis and Golf.

What was killing Figure Skating popularity was the tired old sameness of the sport. Same old tricks, same old music, same old costumes, and same little girls competing. It didn't matter whethr 6.0 or CoP. Nothing mature about it. Sad, but it ain't dead. There is a reasonable following as a small sport.
I think another Tara will bring in more fans, but not like in years gone bye.

No. What was and is killing Figure Skating popularity basically and fundamentally is the American culture. It's hard to imagine if Japanese and Koreans were obsessed with footballs, nascars, and all the macho behaviors like Americans, figure skating would ever be popular. In general, Asian cultures are much milder.

Hersh doesn't like what he's seen so far

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Layfan

Bluebonnet

Joesitz (RIP)

Layfan

Mathman

Sylvia

PolymerBob

Joesitz (RIP)

jenaj

SkatingAnalyst

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

mousepotato

SkatingAnalyst

Joesitz (RIP)

Bluebonnet

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