Phil Hersh on the season so far

[el henry]

El, my good friend and favorite arguing partner, you are missing my point.

While USFSA was putting all their eggs in less-athletic skaters' baskets, the rest of world was investing in technical prowess. True, we held our own for a while, but there is no way that could last.

......

And if USFSA doesn't have, as a goal, the winning of medals, then they should all resign at one time. The competitive development of skaters and the winning of medals or maximizing placements should be a top priority for a major federation managing skaters at this level.

That turned into a rant, and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that, but I'm not editing it. I think the points are valid, even if my frustrations have run on a bit.

Tonto, my friend and debater, I don't mind a rant. You're entitled.

I understand where you coming from, and believe it or not, I do like to win. (Yes, to go OT with the NFL, I'm still on the WentzWagon). But I don't think that the US *had* "winners" at the time, and they did the best with what they had.

And I'm going to stand by my argument that this was in no way a "preference", "supporting", or "promoting" pretty skaters. It was going with the highest scorers they had at the time. And it sure didn't seem to discourage Nathan or Vincent from figuring out what basket to put their eggs in, now did it?

It's no more fair, and just as incorrect IMO, to characterize Nathan's skating that way, than it is to call Jason an artistic skater and a beautiful spinner who can't jump.

Many people at the time felt that Nathan, not Max, should have won the silver at Nationals. On the strength of his artistry. Many felt Nathan was lowballed on the artistic mark in that comp.

Just sayin'. Nathan and his team took it as a step in the process. Moved on.

I know what people thought, I was there arguing with them. I will concede that Nathan has taken steps to improve his artistry in the past few years, and I applaud, and have applauded him for it. But I am sorry, I cannot back off my assessment of what Nathan did (or didn't do) in 2015-16. That LP to SaintSaens.... SMH.

But anyone who loved that program as a program is free to disagree with me; that's what makes threads go on!

 

[skylark]

But anyone who loved that program as a program is free to disagree with me; that's what makes threads go on!

It won't be me, as I don't remember the program at all. But I do remember feeling at the time that Nathan's scores didn't reflect what he was doing with the program besides just jumping.

It's very interesting to me how people perceive programs, skating and particular skaters so very differently. Like, I enjoyed Nathan's skating from the first time I saw him, but I don't see Max doing much besides jumping. However, Max's quad-triple is fabulous and carries its own emotional power, and when he picks the right music it carries him along.

But I don't mind those differences in perspective. That's one of the things that makes figure skating so great. There's something for everyone and every taste.

 

[TontoK]

It won't be me, as I don't remember the program at all. But I do remember feeling at the time that Nathan's scores didn't reflect what he was doing with the program besides just jumping.

It's very interesting to me how people perceive programs, skating and particular skaters so very differently. Like, I enjoyed Nathan's skating from the first time I saw him, but I don't see Max doing much besides jumping. However, Max's quad-triple is fabulous and carries its own emotional power, and when he picks the right music it carries him along.

But I don't mind those differences in perspective. That's one of the things that makes figure skating so great. There's something for everyone and every taste.

Thank you for that. I agree.

Here's the deal: my favorite skater of all time is John Curry. But that doesn't mean that his is the only definition of artistry that a skater can aspire to.

Curry's style of skating suited him. I think Max's skating suits him. It's fun and free and athletic and daring and appealing.

 

[mrrice]

But I don't think how a skater is packaged is necessarily the same thing as how USFS viewed/views a skater.

IMO, it was 2013-14 when Max's packaging started moving away from the jumping hockey player. First season after winning Nats. YMMV.

This is true. Max's biggest problem is that he hasn't placed well at Worlds. The year he won his Championship, he only placed 7th at Worlds. Adam Rippon's highest placing is 6th. Jason Brown has placed as high as 4th and that's as high as any of our Men have placed at Worlds since.......:scratch3: Who was our last World Medalist? brb...Evan Lysacek waaaay back in 2009. In fact, we haven't had a Men's Champion defend his title since Jeremy Abbott back in 2010. At this point, whoever brings it at Nationals should be on the team. I could see Nathan, as the defending champion being held up by the judges but that's it.

 

[ice coverage]

... Max's biggest problem is that he hasn't placed well at Worlds. The year he won his Championship, he only placed 7th at Worlds. Adam Rippon's highest placing is 6th. Jason Brown has placed as high as 4th ...

Well, of the group under discussion, the worlds placements as reigning national champs were/are:

Jason 4th
Nathan 6th
Adam 6th
Max 7th​

Jason clearly has had the best showing at Worlds since Lysacek.

Max was one placement below Nathan and Adam. If(??) that really is Max's biggest problem, then one could say that Nathan and Adam have problems almost as big??
(I myself don't think this way.)

 

[Mathman]

The USFS “favored” skaters of lesser technical ability, that put the USA somehow out of sync with international judging?

I think it was more, "go with what you got." When Evan Lysacek was America's great hope, we were all about, 'Quads aren't everything." When Jeremy Abbott, Adam Rippon or Jason Brown was our best, the USFSA gushed about artistry. Maybe this sent a message to coaches of young skaters about what the USFSA "favored." But then here comes Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou. Now it's "how many different quads can you do."

I do believe that the quad revolution, with everybody and his dog trying quad Lutzes, quad flips and quad loops, took the whole world by surprise. Once the toothpaste got out of the tube -- hey, it really is possible for the human body to do these tricks -- there is no putting it back in.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Nathan's biggest problem was the he wasn't already well-liked by the judges. We'll see how that might change this year...

- - - Updated - - -

I think it was more, "go with what you got." When Evan Lysacek was America's great hope, we were all about, 'Quads aren't everything." When Jeremy Abbott, Adam Rippon or Jason Brown were our best, the USFSA gushed about artistry. Maybe this sent a message to coaches of young skaters about what the USFSA "favored." But then here comes Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou. Now it's "how many different quads can you do."

I do believe that the quad revolution, with everybody and his dog trying quad Lutzes, quad flips and quad loops, took the whole world by surprise. Once the toothpaste got out of the tube -- hey, it really is possible for the human body to do these tricks -- there is no putting it back in.

Nice metaphors! :agree:

 

[el henry]

I think it was more, "go with what you got." When Evan Lysacek was America's great hope, we were all about, 'Quads aren't everything." When Jeremy Abbott, Adam Rippon or Jason Brown were our best, the USFSA gushed about artistry. Maybe this sent a message to coaches of young skaters about what the USFSA "favored." But then here comes Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou. Now it's "how many different quads can you do."

I do believe that the quad revolution, with everybody and his dog trying quad Lutzes, quad flips and quad loops, took the whole world by surprise. Once the toothpaste got out of the tube -- hey, it really is possible for the human body to do these tricks -- there is no putting it back in.

"
Thank you; this is what I was trying to say, but with too many words USFS could give a fig about artistry or quads, as such. Rather, they were following the time honored trial lawyer's maxim:

If you don't have the facts, argue the law.
If you don't have the law, argue the facts.
If you don't have the law or the facts, pound your fist on the table.

I am under no illusions that USFS loves Jason for artistry's sake, or Nathan for jumping skill's sake. They just don't want to pound their fists on the table

 

[mrrice]

Unless something weird happens. Nathan will be the first man to defend his title since Jeremy in 2010. I find that amazing....It would be one thing if skaters had retired but, Max, Jason, Adam, and Nathan all have 1 Championship to their names.

 

[arewhyaen]

Based on that video, I think Michelle's looking like a near-lock for the Olympic team. Whether she can medal though is another question.

 

[el henry]

Unless something weird happens. Nathan will be the first man to defend his title since Jeremy in 2010. I find that amazing....It would be one thing if skaters had retired but, Max, Jason, Adam, and Nathan all have 1 Championship to their names.

It is an interesting stat, but two of those years were affected by injury. Jason was injured in fall 2015 and could not defend his title in 2016; Adam was injured in 2017 and could not defend his title.

That said, and I am saying this looking at the facts and not as any particular fan, I think Jason may have had a good chance of repeating in 2016 absent his withdrawal. His scores in Skate America were pretty impressive given his back had already started to bother him (I believe) and when he returned in April he finished ahead of Adam at TCC. (Yes, I know full season v. half season, cheesefest, yadee yadee, I’m talking potential not predictions). Anyway, Jason was injured and Adam won and that’s the result.

I think Nathan was going to win last year absent an unforeseen implosion, so that would have been a new champ in any event.

And absent an implosion of catastrophic proportions, I predict to no one’s surprise that Nathan will repeat

 

[ranran]

Here you go ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tPJiIUVtSs

This is really the epitome of the words of gratitude "It's a privilege to be taught by you" because it really is for Patrick. Some of the top skaters nowadays don't have that privilege to be train by Colson as they started skating in public mall with no access to coach etc. It would be wonderful to be taught by Colson but not everyone is lucky and expected to be so each and one of them fight in their own way with what is available to them to be at the top. Shows that we can be born in different circumstances but how we make use of that circumstances to be a benefit is how it will shape our path.

 

[4everchan]

This is really the epitome of the words of gratitude "It's a privilege to be taught by you" because it really is for Patrick. Some of the top skaters nowadays don't have that privilege to be train by Colson as they started skating in public mall with no access to coach etc. It would be wonderful to be taught by Colson but not everyone is lucky and expected to be so each and one of them fight in their own way with what is available to them to be at the top. Shows that we can be born in different circumstances but how we make use of that circumstances to be a benefit is how it will shape our path.

I am not sure what your point is? I am confused.

I agree that it was a privilege for Patrick to have such a mentor who focused on style rather than jumps.

However, the focus nowadays, in both ladies and men is jumps, jumps, and ... jumps... and skaters like coaches like judges favour it... so even if Mr. Colson or someone teaching like him were around, most young skaters would flock to the "jumping coaches". So to me, it's not a question of privilege/location but of preference/choice.

This is a generational trend... it will probably change... it goes in waves. Hopefully, when Patrick opens his skating school, many young talented skaters will flock to him and learn strong basic skills before triple jumps.

 

[Tallorder]

Is Patrick still planning on opening his skating school? I had recalled that he and Kathy Johnson were supposed to move into a new facility out in BC, but that fell through, and then they parted ways. I certainly hope he succeeds in establishing a strong school as for certain there is a need for fresh blood, in cycles, to replenish the 'eras' which have defined the sport. His involvement, in parallel with others like Plushenko's could be quite extraordinary in the years to come.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Is Patrick still planning on opening his skating school? I had recalled that he and Kathy Johnson were supposed to move into a new facility out in BC, but that fell through, and then they parted ways. I certainly hope he succeeds in establishing a strong school as for certain there is a need for fresh blood, in cycles, to replenish the 'eras' which have defined the sport. His involvement, in parallel with others like Plushenko's could be quite extraordinary in the years to come.

I'm not sure about the skating school "falling through". Patrick wanted to have Johnson along with her body knowledge but whatever happened that summer, she quit her job as his coach. I've been assuming Patrick will be devoting more of his time to the school, which is part of an upscale athletic club, once he retires from competitive skating, as has always been the plan. He has also indicated there are a lot lined up for him. Curiously, instead of debuting his programs at Nebelhorn, he has been spending time in BC lately, showing up in rinks in skates and freaking out young skaters.

 

[ranran]

I am not sure what your point is? I am confused.

I agree that it was a privilege for Patrick to have such a mentor who focused on style rather than jumps.

However, the focus nowadays, in both ladies and men is jumps, jumps, and ... jumps... and skaters like coaches like judges favour it... so even if Mr. Colson or someone teaching like him were around, most young skaters would flock to the "jumping coaches". So to me, it's not a question of privilege/location but of preference/choice.

This is a generational trend... it will probably change... it goes in waves. Hopefully, when Patrick opens his skating school, many young talented skaters will flock to him and learn strong basic skills before triple jumps.

I reread my sentences and it might be confusing. But what I meant is Patrick is blessed that he has the opportunity to be train by Colson. Many skaters would have benefit from training with him. But some people don't have the opportunity. So my point is just a musing of mine that now I know why I hated to judge different skaters who managed to get to the top even if I don't necessarily fan of their skatings because everyone is making used and pushed themselves hard according to their own situation including Patrick.

 

[4everchan]

I reread my sentences and it might be confusing. But what I meant is Patrick is blessed that he has the opportunity to be train by Colson. Many skaters would have benefit from training with him. But some people don't have the opportunity. So my point is just a musing of mine that now I know why I hated to judge different skaters who managed to get to the top even if I don't necessarily fan of their skatings because everyone is making used and pushed themselves hard according to their own situation including Patrick.

patrick made a good choice. others could have made similar choices too and didn't .... each skater is responsible to make the arrangements they deem valid...

look at how many skaters train at cricket with orser and wilson.... patrick, while in toronto, didn't go there... and chose granite club... every one seeks the guidance they deem appropriate.

 

[Violet Bliss]

But what I meant is Patrick is blessed that he has the opportunity to be train by Colson. Many skaters would have benefit from training with him. But some people don't have the opportunity.

patrick made a good choice. others could have made similar choices too and didn't .... each skater is responsible to make the arrangements they deem valid...

look at how many skaters train at cricket with orser and wilson.... patrick, while in toronto, didn't go there... and chose granite club... every one seeks the guidance they deem appropriate.

Mr. Colson chose Patrick too. He was in his late eighties and picked Patrick as his only student because he was very impressed with little Patrick's talents and potential. He predicted Patrick to be the first Chinese world champion, referring to his race. Mr. Colson became one of the Chan's family and forever in Patrick's heart.

Patrick, of course, has had mostly unconventional coaches, mostly old men and women, who are devoted to his training almost exclusively. He's never gone to a hot coach du jour and Marina Zueva is the most famous coach he's had, at least at the time he is a student.

Different great skaters develop differently and Patrick's course is quite unique.

 

[qwertyskates]

And then IDU cut out one step sequence from the SP and reduce one in the LP to a measly 2 points.

That's the thing - to encourage more balanced skating they should up the BV of steps and spins, and include more Step Sequences. This way, skaters who don't have the full arsenal of quads can still competitively score high enough TES to medal, plus there will be fewer complaints of "empty" programs, stroking across the ice in between jumps.

Tweaking PCS is unrealistic due to the "reputation" factor, the home inflation accusations, etc.

 

[Bcash]

I remember that program and NO, it wasn't a 148 points worthy program, sorry. The commentators were totally with Kim because she was the champion, she won everything and she is not russian (let's be realistic even on that...), so of course they were with her.

Chan won some medals with a similar tech content gap as Kostner in these two competitions (and BTW she didn't won Finlandia or Lombardia trophy!!!)

Yuna Kim's FS from worlds 2011: 4 triples -> bv. 51.70 -> 61.72 TES

Carolina Kostner's FS from Finlandia Trophy 2017 -> 4 triples -> bv. 46.64 -> 53.95 TES.

So yes the overscoring hasn't changed much from the past.

If you think Kostner's quality of techinical elements is anywhere near Kim's in 2013, you must not know skating, or being deliberately delusional.