- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
I believe the year Nagasu won Senior Nationals, Flatt was Second and Zhang was fourth they all went to JWs
Correct--they were all age-ineligible for "Senior" Worlds, and Caroline Zhang was the defending Junior World Champion.
I believe the year Nagasu won Senior Nationals, Flatt was Second and Zhang was fourth they all went to JWs
But that's not true - a skater who passes the US Senior MIF and FS tests can no longer compete as a Junior at US quaifying competitions (Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals). There are select situations for nonqualifying competitions where skaters are allowed to "skate down" in the same way that skaters can "skate up" a level. Those situations are for skaters who have passed their Senior FS but are competing on the JGP circuit.
Because of the disparity in the way skaters can skate Senior Nationals within various countries, it's within the purview of each NGB to determine who will represent the country at both Senior and Junior Worlds (and 4CC/Europeans). The main mission of US Figure Skating is to create World and Olympic Champions. In order to do that, they need as many spots as possible in the JGP and at JWs to get exposure for the atheletes who are promising but aren't quite ready for prime time (Senior GP and Worlds) yet. To that end, it's in US Figure Skating's best interest to send Agnes Zawadzki, Christina Gao and Keegan Messing to JWs.
If all things were equal and all countries had similar test criteria, then perhaps you could preclude those who have passed the International Senior FS test from skating at Junior Worlds. If you think all countries could come to a consensus on what should/shouldn't be included on that test, I have some swamp land in Arizona for sale....
I don't have a problem with skaters competing as Sr's on a nat'l level and on as Jr's int'lly. I don't really like the idea of skaters competing for most of the season as Sr's int'lly and then going to Jr. WC. - that seems a little unfair, but I understand it's not uncommon and not against the rules.
I'll probably have to wait until after the event to play Monday morning quarterback , but I do think that in the long run, it will have been better for him to go to Worlds. Time will tell. I'm glad he's been given this opportunity and I'm glad his going opened the door at junior worlds for another skater.It's not entirely clear to me that it would be better for Dornbush to enter next year as having finished, say,11th in the Worlds rather than as Junior Worlds Champion. If Dornbush finished in the top 6 at Worlds, it would clearly be better for him, and maybe even top 10, but if he finishes lower than 10th, I suspect it would be better to be Junior World Champion.
So I'd like to know why it would be better to be, say, 11th?
Not from what I can tell. The Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. The Junior Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. Both are regardless of level skated. I'm not sure if a junior champion has ever been sent to Worlds by the USFS, but they could be based on the selection process.Joesitz said:It's not that I dislike the selection process for juniors, I'm just saying it appears to me, that the selection for juniors is different from the selection of seniors to World competitions.
It's going to be similar to JGP's vs GP's. For those that compete though, they'll have an opportunity to earn points and possibly a guaranteed grand prix assignment for next season. I guess you could call it a stepping stone?Joesitz said:Because of its set-up, I can not appreciate the Junior Worlds as a major competition. It's an adjunct to to the Senior Division.
And a junior age eligible skater can skate seniors Nationals and avoid junior Nationals and go straight to Junior Worlds. I'm not arguing that this is wrong for you. I'm just stating that it is wrong for me. I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.Not from what I can tell. The Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. The Junior Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. Both are regardless of level skated. I'm not sure if a junior champion has ever been sent to Worlds by the USFS, but they could be based on the selection process.
^^^^
It seems to me to be a glorified competition of skaters who now do not skate Senior Worlds, and is not much more than a world wide "B" competition. Of course if one can watch it, we can see Hanyu, Abbott, Reynolds, et al who also skate senior, skate once again into the sunset. That's always fun (but will we see the comp?)
This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.And a junior age eligible skater can skate seniors Nationals and avoid junior Nationals and go straight to Junior Worlds. I'm not arguing that this is wrong for you. I'm just stating that it is wrong for me. I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.
Actually, I'm not sure this is right, but I'd have to double check the rulebook. I believe the only guaranteed spots are the senior champions for the Olympics. Team selections are exactly as you said, the result of nationals, plus international placements. It's not necessarily the top 3 in each level though, because there are ISU age rules that don't translate to most countries.BTW, the selection process for seniors turns out every year to be the results of the nationals unless some star was injured and couldn't skate nationals regardless of any decision. Not so with the results of the junior nationals. I believe only numero uno can go to Jr. Worlds, but not sure.
Thank you for discussing this. I do not know that there was a higher funded envelope involved in which case I see him as a good competitor.This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.
I was speaking more of how the selection is made by tradition for Worlds - results of US Nats. If we use Abbott as an example, he got 4th place and his results of senior GPs didn't count as well as his tie for the GPF and prior national champion. Instead they went totally for the results of the Nats. I just wish they would put that into the USFS regulations.Actually, I'm not sure this is right, but I'd have to double check the rulebook. I believe the only guaranteed spots are the senior champions for the Olympics. Team selections are exactly as you said, the result of nationals, plus international placements. It's not necessarily the top 3 in each level though, because there are ISU age rules that don't translate to most countries.
This is a very good point because unless he medals at JW, he will drop 1 funding envelope from last season! I think it's good sportsmanship of him - you won last year, move up!This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.
Okay, here is the excerpt from the rulebook (maybe knowing this, we can determine how the selections may have been made):I was speaking more of how the selection is made by tradition for Worlds - results of US Nats. If we use Abbott as an example, he got 4th place and his results of senior GPs didn't count as well as his tie for the GPF and prior national champion. Instead they went totally for the results of the Nats. I just wish they would put that into the USFS regulations.
I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.
...and shall be based on the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships,...
.. so maybe they did go to that second level in their discussions.