US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[el henry]

I don't know, I don't know. I really took notice of Nathan Chen's remark that what motivated him to learn so many quads was not to catch up to the the guys who were ahead of him, but rather to hold off the (even) younger generation whom he saw practicing.

I remember how astonished we were (at least I was) when Patrick Chan added a quad to his repertoire, without sacrificing his blade skills and refinement of movement. I remember how impressed I was when Yuzuru Hanyu did two quads in the SP and three in the long at the 2015 NH and Grand Prix Final, while still mesmerizing the audience with his choreography and in-betweens. I can foresee a "next generation" that takes multiple quads for granted, without disappointing us in other aspects of their skating.

Well of course about the younger folk; I have no doubt that every single skater does that. That is yet another criticism of Jason that brings out my Mama Bear; oh these kids are just working so dang hard on those quads. And the non-kids have been skating in circles, eating bon bons? I don't think so.

You are more optimistic than I about the integration. IMO, I have seen no one integrate Toller level, John Curry level, or Jason level artistry with multiple quads. As I said before, if they do, good on them.

ETA: I should define that as on a consistent level. Have I seen individual, isolated performances with quads that were gorgeous? Of course. Patrick Chan at 4CC last year comes to mind. Few and far between. Worth the wait? Not for me. YMMV. But nothing wrong with being an optimist

 

[ice coverage]

... But now Jason is up to ten million (combined) views of Riverdance, maybe I'll just stick with the great unwashed....

I don't see any relevance of the ever-increasing view count of Riverdance to the topic of this thread -- which is this year's World team.

Selection of the World team obviously is not a popularity contest (and IMO, should not become one).

And it would not have spoken well for Jason if his case for the 2017 World team required reaching back to his free skate from three years ago.
(My opinion is that it was not required.)

... The problem is not whether Nathan and Vincent have bright futures. The problem is posters using those futures to belittle other skaters (usually Jason) ...

Belittling is in the eye of the beholder.

The problem is not whether Jason is popular on social media ...

---

... Heck, I get flack from everyone but Karne when I talk about my love for Max. ...

... But, I have to point out that you'll get no flack from me about fandom for Max. I love Max.

I like his vibe.

Please, mrrice ... your exaggeration is a slap in the face to those of us who are not named karne and who do very consistently support Max on GS.

I appreciate that you are very loyal to Max, and I always hope that more supporters will gravitate toward Max.

I just do not see what is to be gained by trivializing the loyalty of others who have been standing by Max through thick and thin.

 

[mrrice]

I don't see any relevance of the ever-increasing view count of Riverdance to the topic of this thread -- which is this year's World team.

Selection of the World team obviously is not a popularity contest (and IMO, should not become one).

And it would not have spoken well for Jason if his case for the 2017 World team required reaching back to his free skate from three years ago.
(My opinion is that it was not required.)



Belittling is in the eye of the beholder.

The problem is not whether Jason is popular on social media ...

---

Please, mrrice ... your exaggeration is a slap in the face to those of us who are not named karne and who do very consistently support Max on GS.

I appreciate that you are very loyal to Max, and I always hope that more supporters will gravitate toward Max.

I just do not see what is to be gained by trivializing the loyalty of others who have been standing by Max through thick and thin.

I have never "Trivialized" a skater. I know how hard it is just get on the team to begin with. We all have our favorites and I'd rather comment on the skaters I like. Here's the thing. I don't feel comfortable talking about skater's that I don't follow. During the 90's, I gave up trying to convince people to like my favorites. It was fruitless and made posting a lot less fun.

 

[ice coverage]

I have never "Trivialized" a skater. .

You completely misunderstood what I said.

I did not say that you trivialized any skater.

I did say that you trivialized fans of Max .. with your exaggeration that karne and you are the only ones on GS who are Max's fans.

 

[mrrice]

You completely misunderstood what I said.

I did not say that you trivialized any skater.

I did say that you trivialized fans of Max .. with your exaggeration that karne and you are the only ones on GS who are Max's fans.

Well, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I actually have no idea who Max's fans are on this site. I mentioned Karne because we've had more than a few conversations that were Max related.

 

[karne]

Well, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I actually have no idea who Max's fans are on this site. I mentioned Karne because we've had more than a few conversations that were Max related.

ice coverage is a loyal Max fan, and is perhaps even a bigger fan than me :yes: IC always has the latest news and has faithfully posted every scrap of detail about Max in his fan fest. IC is awesome at being a Max fan

 

[Tavi...]

I don't see any relevance of the ever-increasing view count of Riverdance to the topic of this thread -- which is this year's World team.

Selection of the World team obviously is not a popularity contest (and IMO, should not become one).

And it would not have spoken well for Jason if his case for the 2017 World team required reaching back to his free skate from three years ago.
(My opinion is that it was not required.)

Belittling is in the eye of the beholder.

The problem is not whether Jason is popular on social media ...

I would suggest that el henry's posts about Jason's "ever increasing view count" on FB weren't intended to trivialize or belittle anyone else or tout his popularity on social media, but rather to point out that for a large number of people - including selecting officials and judges - there are other things of value besides quads, that one quality Jason brings to the ice - his ability to connect with people - is unique, that judges reward it, and that it was a factor in his selection to the Olympic Team in 2014 as well as his selection to the World Team this year.

 

[Mathman]

Well of course about the younger folk; I have no doubt that every single skater does that. That is yet another criticism of Jason that brings out my Mama Bear; oh these kids are just working so dang hard on those quads. And the non-kids have been skating in circles, eating bon bons? I don't think so.

You are more optimistic than I about the integration. IMO, I have seen no one integrate Toller level, John Curry level, or Jason level artistry with multiple quads. As I said before, if they do, good on them.

I don't really know what I think, but here's what I think about. Having sown the wind with the ISU judging system, now we are reaping the whirlwind.

We have a points-based sport. The biggest point-getter is the quad. The only thing that gets more points than a quad is two quads. What is going to happen? (Duh.)

We can, of course, preach the virtues of small-ball. But we can’t reasonably curtail the kids who want to swing for the fences.

The question that I ask myself is this. Why would an athletically gifted boy want to take up the sport of figure skating instead of, say, football? Well, there are a gang of possible reasons. Maybe the kid was forced to tag along to his sister’s skating lesson and said, “I can do that!” Maybe what he really wanted to do was play hockey, but was too small for the big time so his coach turned him towards figure skating instead.

Lots of reasons. But I think that the main one must be, that even at a young age he wanted to express himself artistically.

Now comes the IJS and says, “Thou fool.”

If we think that the sport is degenerating into quads on ice, the solution is at hand. Give fewer points for quads and more for esthetic quality. Until then, we have made our beds and now must lie in them.

 

[Tahuu]

Anyone here following US man's figure skating knows the difference of icecoverage and karne as a Max uber - one accepts and praises other men's accomplishment and excellency while the other constantly belittles and tears down any man other than MJJ. Poor soul for the latter. Must be feeling bad and anger most of the time because her wishes of others' failures are not met at this age and time.

But hey it's colorful to the boards and Karne is skating wise knowledgeable too.

 

[ice coverage]

I would suggest that el henry's posts about Jason's "ever increasing view count" on FB weren't intended to trivialize or belittle anyone else or tout his popularity on social media, but rather to point out that for a large number of people - including selecting officials and judges - there are other things of value besides quads, that one quality Jason brings to the ice - his ability to connect with people - is unique, that judges reward it, and that it was a factor in his selection to the Olympic Team in 2014 as well as his selection to the World Team this year.

I will repeat that "belittling" (el henry's verb) is in the eye of the beholder.

If we stipulate that it is not "belittling" to other skaters to point out a strength of Jason that the others do not have -- then it is not "belittling" to Jason to point out a strength of other skaters that Jason does not have.

As I have said a thousand times, I am a fan of Jason, but fair is fair.

If the "great unwashed" (a direct quote from el henry) enjoy Jason's skating -- as I do -- great.
But I am not going to start lobbying for Starr Andrews to be on the World team based on her view count. YMMV.

(I hope and believe that a place on the World team is in Starr's future -- but not based on her view count.)

---

ice coverage is a loyal Max fan, and is perhaps even a bigger fan than me :yes: ...

Thx, karne .
I do not think it is possible to be a bigger Max fan than you ... and I always will be grateful to you for your frequent cheers for Max that helped me "get to know" him in the first place.
I do enjoy contributing to Max's fan thread -- and to discussing him with you and a group of others over there.

 

[Mathman]

^ Still, I think that view count is not irrelevant to the discussion of where the sport of figure skating is and where we want it to go. In the most successful sports, there is not a disconnect between what the governing body wants and what the "great unwashed" wants.

One topic of constant debate on these boards is, how to get more young people interested in the the sport, either as fans or as participants. Well, referring to Starr Andrews, one way seems to be to let young skaters perform to Willow Smith.

 

[elbkup]

I agree with Mathman and other posters who note that the system now is point structured and most points are awarded to quads so this system seems to be flying in the face of what traditionally FS sports was all about, ie, artistic programs skated with a high degree of athletic skill and perfection. It really should be about balance between TES/PCS which is what my favorite skaters, Jason among them, seem to be aiming for regardless of how the system rewards them. For me, the closer the balance between tech and art, the more aesthetically pleasing the program and audiences respond enormously to this in a subliminal way. I get that tech is highly rewarded because pushing the growth of the sport is essential, but FS is not skiing, luge or curling where speed focus and finesse reign supreme. Artistic expression is and always has been a huge part of FS and built into it by default... Eliminate it at your peril...

 

[Tavi...]

I will repeat that "belittling" (el henry's verb) is in the eye of the beholder.

If we stipulate that it is not "belittling" to other skaters to point out a strength of Jason that the others do not have -- then it is not "belittling" to Jason to point out a strength of other skaters that Jason does not have.

As to belittling, I would suggest that it's a question of intent, and not necessarily in the eye of the beholder.

As to pointing out the strengths of others, it were merely a matter of that, I would agree with you. But posts (1) criticizing Jason for his lack of quad, his injury, his behavior in the kiss and cry, etc; and (2) predicting he'll never get a quad or catch up technically, won't make the Olympic Team, etc, are not pointing out the strengths of other skaters.

 

[skylark]

I don't really know what I think, but here's what I think about. Having sown the wind with the ISU judging system, now we are reaping the whirlwind.

We have a points-based sport. The biggest point-getter is the quad. The only thing that gets more points than a quad is two quads. What is going to happen? (Duh.)

We can, of course, preach the virtues of small-ball. But we can’t reasonably curtail the kids who want to swing for the fences.

The question that I ask myself is this. Why would an athletically gifted boy want to take up the sport of figure skating instead of, say, football? Well, there are a gang of possible reasons. Maybe the kid was forced to tag along to his sister’s skating lesson and said, “I can do that!” Maybe what he really wanted to do was play hockey, but was too small for the big time so his coach turned him towards figure skating instead.

Lots of reasons. But I think that the main one must be, that even at a young age he wanted to express himself artistically.

Now comes the IJS and says, “Thou fool.”

If we think that the sport is degenerating into quads on ice, the solution is at hand. Give fewer points for quads and more for esthetic quality. Until then, we have made our beds and now must lie in them.

ALL of this.

Except maybe the part about "we have made our beds." Whaddya mean We, White Man? Just kidding, but that conversation started back in 2010-11 when it was decided to value risk more highly.

 

[skylark]

^ Still, I think that view count is not irrelevant to the discussion of where the sport of figure skating is and where we want it to go. In the most successful sports, there is not a disconnect between what the governing body wants and what the "great unwashed" wants.

Scott Hamilton also made this point on his program a few weeks ago. I think it was the one soon after US Nationals. He was talking about URs, not quads, but the principle of considering the spectators and other viewers, not just referees or judges, is the same. Most sports do it.

 

[LRK]

Just to note...

There is always talk of skaters being "pushed" or "forced" into doing quads. Is it really totally inconceivable that some of them may actually enjoy doing them?

Stephane Lambiel has still got a quad - who is "forcing" or "pushing" him? Nobunari Oda still has a quad which he even displayed in a competitve program at Japan Open, although he's long since retired - is he being "forced" or "pushed"?

But then, perhaps, it will be said that the quad is Stephane's and Nobu's only claim to fame and that no one would bother to watch them unless they did quads?

Oh, well, never mind.

 

[Mathman]

Except maybe the part about "we have made our beds." Whaddya mean We, White Man? Just kidding, but that conversation started back in 2010-11 when it was decided to value risk more highly.

I hope you are ready for when posters start asking for an explanation of what that Lone Ranger joke is all about.

It was different back then, wasn't it. In 2010 it was, what do we have to do to coax skaters into attempting quads when the rules are slanted against it. What a difference a seeming tiny change in point values has made.

 

[Mathman]

There is always talk of skaters being "pushed" or "forced" into doing quads. Is it really totally inconceivable that some of them may actually enjoy doing them?

They do, they do!

Now what we have to do is push or force them into listening to music and mastering choreography.

Oh, well, never mind.

Best comment of the thread.

 

[skylark]

I hope you are ready for when posters start asking for an explanation of what that Lone Ranger joke is all about.

 

[ice coverage]

As to belittling, I would suggest that it's a question of intent, and not necessarily in the eye of the beholder.

As to pointing out the strengths of others, it were merely a matter of that, I would agree with you. But posts (1) criticizing Jason for his lack of quad, his injury, his behavior in the kiss and cry, etc; and (2) predicting he'll never get a quad or catch up technically, won't make the Olympic Team, etc, are not pointing out the strengths of other skaters.

My original comment was in response to el henry -- and either in this thread and/or other thread(s), she has criticized others for being nowhere near the rating of "five Tollers" that she gives to Jason.
And el henry has been very clear in predicting that catching up to Jason's five Tollers ain't gonna happen no matter how hard other skaters work -- and in asserting that Jason has a special gift that others never will have.

So el henry has gone beyond merely pointing out the strengths of Jason.
If she is entitled to do so (and she is), then other GS members are entitled to go beyond merely pointing out the strengths of other skaters.

[Again, I am referring here to posts from el henry. Not to posts from you, Tavi -- the reason I am replying to you is that you have replied to me.]

As I have said before, I wish that all skaters would get less criticism on GS than they do.
But as long as other skaters are considered fair game for criticism, then I have to accept that my own favorite skaters (such as Jason) are fair game too.

I am a believer to some extent in bad/good karma, so I try (try/try/try) not to criticize my non-favorite skaters -- with the hope that my instances of restraint in some small and karmic way will reduce instances of criticism of my favorites.

---

On a general level (in other words, not referring back to el henry):

I am opposed to criticism of anyone -- whether Vincent, Nathan, Jason, or anyone -- for an injury.

And I am opposed to criticism of anyone for her/his behavior in the Kiss and Cry.
[Although I have seen some instances of such criticism on GS, I do not remember whether it has been put forth as a reason against selecting someone for the World team? I don't think it has, but I could be wrong.]​

---

Changing the subject to a hopefully controversy-free topic:

Sending my respect and appreciation to Torgashev for his team spirit at Junior Worlds.

I am sad :sad4: for Torgashev that he did not qualify for the FS .
But it made me smile that he continued to do his part for Team USA by faithfully showing up to cheer for his teammates in every discipline and to literally wave the flag for them :yay:.​