Alarming annual PCS inflation

jcoates said:

I've now seen you make two comments about abandoning ice dance if D/W either become dominant over V/M or if their current scoring trend continues to become justified. How else should I take comments like that? Honestly, it distresses me. Are we just supposed to watch skating to see our favorites win? If they are beaten or surpassed, do we just take our toys and go home? I just don't get that line of thinking. In every sport I watch athletes whom I adore have at some point been passed or found a thoroughly equal opponent. Sometimes I like both and have trouble separating my feelings (i.e. Nadal/Djokovic). At other times, my loyalties remain unchanged. Still when my side loses, even consistently, I don't throw up my hands and walk away (except with the Redskins; 20 years of futility is all I can take; it's like the 80's took place in another dimension). I know you are frustrated by their current success apparently outpacing V/M, but if Tessa and Scott have not thrown in the towel, why should you? Also, who's to say other teams wont come along and capture your attention and imagination. I loved D/W from the off after years of enjoying other teams. While their impact was immediate, their rise within the top ten was slower than V/M's. That was frustrating for me, but I chose to take the long view rather than looking for instant gratification. I knew that with hard work and perseverance, they would rise. W/P seem to be taking that sort of mindset to heart. Except perhaps the French, no top ten team has had more recent disappointments. Yet that seems to make them work that much harder. I admire that. They still have room for growth. Who knows? They could garner 10s of their own in the future especially since their self-confidence is obviously growing rapidly.

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I think it's best to compare this to the SLC situation.

When S/P lost, I was annoyed. Not because of the French judge - when it became clear that there was chicanery with her marks anyway, but with the four judges that prefered B/S to S/P. Why did they? That question is rhetorical, btw. I understand now and actually agree with it. But then, my lack of understanding did me in. So I stopped watching. If what I think is the best isn't celebrated and/or I can't understand it, I enjoy it less. Mathman has mentioned this several times as to why the audience has left figure skating in general, and I agree (where we disagree is the feeling that the ISU should cater to those fans. I don't think the ISU should cater to me at all.). So if what D/W do is indeed what the sport is now celebrating as the pinacle - and when they literally are getting the highest PCS for any skater in any discipline ever, that's a fair assumption, if I don't respond to it at that level, why should I stick with it?

Now, if you toss on the feeling that Virtue/Moir are stuck between a rock and a hard place politically, that people are wondering about their motivation, that her health situation makes a dramatic change in locale (something I think would be interesting) unlikely, that the feeling that the virulent politicking for Chan means that Skate Canada's head is elsewhere, and that the long view for a V/M fan is seeing them consistently get beaten by someone I believe to be lesser (as opposed to your longview which sees your favourites rise to the top), and a shift towards a style of dance I find underwhelming at best (unless, of course, the ISU changes their minds again, not so much evolution of the sport as an elongated game of snakes-and-ladders), am I really being petulant or out of line?

For you, I'm taking my toys and going elsewhere. For me, I'm wondering why you'd use the word "suffer" to describe watching something you love. Watching figure skating isn't a noble act. There are a lot of things one could do with one's time. It's not inherently honorable to stick with something if you're not enjoying it. I don't like brussel sprouts, I don't eat brussel sprouts. That they may have properties that are good for me, true, but it's also true that I can get those properties from other foods. Figure Skating is not the only thing that takes up my time. Who's to say that when I'm watching a figure skating competition I'm not enjoying, that there isn't a new author, or playwright, or actor or musician or poet or composer just waiting to capture my attention.

In fairness, I am gonna keep watching now. I'm too much of a V/M fan not to.

Politiking is not what won V&M or Chan their titles. Patrick Chan is, overall, the best skater in the World right now. Takahashi may have him beat in performance, but Chan has everyone beat technically.

It is possible to love both V&M and D&W. I know lots of people who do, myself included. I think it's wonderful that the best skaters on the day are winning, not the one's whose "turn" it is, or who are the top ranked skaters. Between V&M and D&W, I can't wait to see the GPF.

ImaginaryPogue said:

If what I think is the best isn't celebrated and/or I can't understand it, I enjoy it less. Mathman has mentioned this several times as to why the audience has left figure skating in general, and I agree (where we disagree is the feeling that the ISU should cater to those fans. I don't think the ISU should cater to me at all.). So if what D/W do is indeed what the sport is now celebrating as the pinacle - and when they literally are getting the highest PCS for any skater in any discipline ever, that's a fair assumption, if I don't respond to it at that level, why should I stick with it?

For you, I'm taking my toys and going elsewhere. For me, I'm wondering why you'd use the word "suffer" to describe watching something you love. Watching figure skating isn't a noble act. There are a lot of things one could do with one's time. It's not inherently honorable to stick with something if you're not enjoying it. I don't like brussel sprouts, I don't eat brussel sprouts. That they may have properties that are good for me, true, but it's also true that I can get those properties from other foods. Figure Skating is not the only thing that takes up my time. Who's to say that when I'm watching a figure skating competition I'm not enjoying, that there isn't a new author, or playwright, or actor or musician or poet or composer just waiting to capture my attention.

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I've edited out parts, but ITA with what IP wrote (except being a Shen/Zhao fan in 2002, I could approach the whole situation dispassionately and always felt B/S were the rightful winners). Among sports fans, there is an expectation that you prove yourself by sticking with your favorite through good times and bad - otherwise you are a fair weather fan, not truly worthy, just basking in reflected glory (to use a more psychological term ). But this is usually in reference to a fan's attachment to a team or an athlete, not a sport. I enjoy baseball, but I'm only invested in the Braves (this has taught me a lot about dealing with disappointment, obviously ). I like skating, but I'm attached to specific skaters, not to the entire sport.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy skating in general; actually, I think one reason I like the ladiezzzz so much these days is that I have no huge favorite (I like Caro, but not enough to be upset if others win), it's very competitive, and it's not predictable. Compare that to the men and the dance: barring disaster, you know what will happen. This was also true in the past, of course: we all knew SLC was Yags or Plush, but there I cared about the outcome. We knew in the years leading up to Turin that N/K were the dance team to beat, and that they likely wouldn't be - and I was so bored, I dropped dance for years. If the skating being rewarded is of a style that does not appeal to me, why should I watch? I have better things to do than force myself to do so just so I can be considered a real fan.

The sprout comparison in IP's post is apt; unlike vegetables, skating shouldn't be consumed if you dislike it just because it's good for you. And even with vegetables there's a choice! And much in the same way, I'm going to exercise my choice as a skating fan, and spend less time watching ice dance until I find it enjoyable again.

p.s. I don't think Die Fledermaus is elevator music, but it is an awfully safe choice.

Dragonlady said:

Politiking is not what won V&M or Chan their titles. Patrick Chan is, overall, the best skater in the World right now. Takahashi may have him beat in performance, but Chan has everyone beat technically.

It is possible to love both V&M and D&W. I know lots of people who do, myself included. I think it's wonderful that the best skaters on the day are winning, not the one's whose "turn" it is, or who are the top ranked skaters. Between V&M and D&W, I can't wait to see the GPF.

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I love this post! And I don't want to choose between Chan or Taka or ...(lot's of others) nor do I want to choose between V/M, D/W and... I want to see them all.

I think, in fairness, we all approach our skating fandom in different ways - some with a love of a particular skater, or style of skating, or nation being represented - and of course a lot of other ways or possibilities too. I find myself drawn to certain kinds of skating in the different disciplines, but love first and foremost the variety or variation in skills and styles, and really feel it amazing when one of two things happens: a) a number of first rate but different 'strengthed' skaters bring their all and at the end, I really don't care who one, just feel so jazzed by the competition (as in the ladies LPs at the olympics) or b) when someone like a Kwan or maybe a Chan just blows the competition out of the water every time even when some of the competitors are clearly better but just can't bring it when it counts.

But, the scoring and particularly scoring changes do complicate viewing, I do admit this. I am curious about the trends in PCS and can't think of a reason to be against 10s, but do think that there should be something very amazing about getting them (so, it's hard for me to imagine obvious errros and 10s; and I am still trying to wrap my head around 9+s in this regard too, although I can see the 8 range easily yet cannot really explain why other than that 'gut feeling).

Buttercup, I think that the nature of skating, with it's constant turnover of top skater/teams every few years almost requires some level of loyalty to the sport. Whereas in team sports, players can come and go from a team/franchise over decades. But the loyatly to the franchise can remain intact regardless.

You ask why you should watch if the current leader is not to your liking. I say because you never know what will be around the corner that might draw you in. I was no fan of N/K's reign. But I hung around b/c I figured some team would come along that I enjoyed eventually. Had I walked away, I might have missed out on the late rise of D/L and Del/Schoes and the splashy debuts of V/M and D/W. There is always the chance of being pleasantly surprised. That's what keeps me coming back year after year even if my faves don't win or even place. In the end, all of these skaters have a pretty narrow window during which to leave an impression before the move on or are passed by. I find that gives me greater impetus to appreciate what's in front of me and to anticipate what is next to come.

BTW, one of my dearest friends is a lost skating fan. We bonded over skating as co-workers. She was devastated by Grinkov's death (and still marks the anniversary) and by SLC her particpation was destroyed. I've tried valiantly for a decade to renew her interest. Yet she spent so much time away, that she does not recognize any names and thus can't bring herself to care. While I cared more about the sporting aspect, she only wanted to be entertained. (She loathes ice dance except for T/D) So I undertand where you and IP are coming from. It just saddens me to read these sentiments.

Here are the words that officially make a guideline for the judges.

10 = Outstanding
9 = Superior
8 = Very Good
7 = Good
6 = Above Average
5 = Average
4 = Fair
3 = Weak
2 = Poor
1 = Very poor

The problem has been that these guidelines have been in place for many years, more or less from the start of the IJS. The problem that has been is that the best skaters in the world aren't above average or good skaters. They are usually very good or superior, and occasionally they are outstanding. The has been a lot of critique from skaters, coaches and judges alike that the use of the 1-10 range has been too narrow for too long, and we are finally seeing better use of this range. Again, the best skaters in the world aren't just good skaters, they are usually superior, and finally the judges dare showing this, which has been a problem for a long time. There has been a big push internaly within the ISU that the use of this range should be better.

I am by no means an Ice Dance expert, so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt if you would like.

I'm seeing a lot of "Well that didn't feel like a 58 PCS performance" or "That wasn't special enough for a 58 PCS performance."

But the thing is, how is "feeling" or "special" be accounted in these PCS scores? I don't think PCS as a whole should have that as the sole factor in giving high scores. It's "program components," which I see as "how well was this program packaged?"

Which in that case, I can see why Patrick Chan does well in PCS. I'm not a fan, but nobody can dispute that he packages his programs well even if to some fans, he doesn't have that "wow" or "special" factor to some people.

Likewise, I think D/W has well-packaged programs also. Their elements seem to flow smoothly from one to the other and they really are performing the music well.

Personally, I think Die Fledermaus is a great piece of music. It's a piece that requires a skater to show bravado and confidence and I think D/W score well to it because they show that music well. Same with Akiko Suzuki, who is also skating to that piece. In addition, compared to last year Tango where D/W seem very uncomfortable with the music until Worlds, D/W are already expressing confidence and enjoyment and the judges are responding to that.

Dragonlady said:

Chan has everyone beat technically.

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Uh, he has been beaten by both Javier Fernandez and Nan Song technically this season in both the SP and the LP at Skate Canada and Trophee Eric Bompard, so your statement is not exactly true.

Mrs. P said:

I am by no means an Ice Dance expert, so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt if you would like.

I'm seeing a lot of "Well that didn't feel like a 58 PCS performance" or "That wasn't special enough for a 58 PCS performance."

But the thing is, how is "feeling" or "special" be accounted in these PCS scores? I don't think PCS as a whole should have that as the sole factor in giving high scores. It's "program components," which I see as "how well was this program packaged?"

Which in that case, I can see why Patrick Chan does well in PCS. I'm not a fan, but nobody can dispute that he packages his programs well even if to some fans, he doesn't have that "wow" or "special" factor to some people.

Likewise, I think D/W has well-packaged programs also. Their elements seem to flow smoothly from one to the other and they really are performing the music well.

Personally, I think Die Fledermaus is a great piece of music. It's a piece that requires a skater to show bravado and confidence and I think D/W score well to it because they show that music well. Same with Akiko Suzuki, who is also skating to that piece. In addition, compared to last year Tango where D/W seem very uncomfortable with the music until Worlds, D/W are already expressing confidence and enjoyment and the judges are responding to that.

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Right, except we're being told that D/W has the best packaged program in the history of COP. We're being told that even with a major error throwing off their timing, they still merit a ten.

skateflower said:

Just watched D/W's free skate on youtube. Gosh, I didn't realize they were this horrible. Unpolished lines, no unison, elevator music, what a hot mess. If this kind of performance is worth 10 points, I'm wondering how would judges rate those great dancers in the past such as Grishuk and Platov? 20 points?

I can't believe PJ got D/W into her top 10.

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This wasn't their best performance. But in my opinion they do have good unison as well as a lot of speed.

ILoveFigures said:

Here are the words that officially make a guideline for the judges.

10 = Outstanding
9 = Superior
8 = Very Good
7 = Good
6 = Above Average
5 = Average
4 = Fair
3 = Weak
2 = Poor
1 = Very poor

The problem has been that these guidelines have been in place for many years, more or less from the start of the IJS. The problem that has been is that the best skaters in the world aren't above average or good skaters. They are usually very good or superior, and occasionally they are outstanding...

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I think the problem is that the IJS has one scale for skaters at all levels. If a pre-juvenile at his first competition can get a 2, then in comparison Davis and White deserve 1000. Also, you wouldn't want to tell the beaming parents of that pre-juvinile champion that his skating was "poor," and that the judge that gave him a 1.75 thought he was "very poor."

The only solution I can see is to impose some kind of logarithmic "learning curve" at the top levels. It should be relatively easy to move up from 6.25 to 6.50, but to move up from 9.50 to 9.75 you really have to show me something.

Mrs. P said:

I am by no means an Ice Dance expert, so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt if you would like.

I'm seeing a lot of "Well that didn't feel like a 58 PCS performance" or "That wasn't special enough for a 58 PCS performance."

But the thing is, how is "feeling" or "special" be accounted in these PCS scores? I don't think PCS as a whole should have that as the sole factor in giving high scores. It's "program components," which I see as "how well was this program packaged?"

Which in that case, I can see why Patrick Chan does well in PCS. I'm not a fan, but nobody can dispute that he packages his programs well even if to some fans, he doesn't have that "wow" or "special" factor to some people.

Likewise, I think D/W has well-packaged programs also. Their elements seem to flow smoothly from one to the other and they really are performing the music well.

Personally, I think Die Fledermaus is a great piece of music. It's a piece that requires a skater to show bravado and confidence and I think D/W score well to it because they show that music well. Same with Akiko Suzuki, who is also skating to that piece. In addition, compared to last year Tango where D/W seem very uncomfortable with the music until Worlds, D/W are already expressing confidence and enjoyment and the judges are responding to that.

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Spot on!

People have to remember that PCS are not based solely on feelings or emotions, etc. The judges are looking for (at least they should, and some do) the following when marking the different components:
Skating Skills: Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement. Flow and effortless glide. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns. Power/energy and acceleration. Mastery of multi-directional skating. Mastery of one foot skating. + Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison in pairs and ice dance
Transitions: Variety. Difficulty. Intricacy. Quality (including unison in ice dance). + Balance of workload between partners in pairs and dance. Variety in dance holds in ice dance.
Performance/Execution: Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement. Carriage. Style and individuality and personality. Clarity of movements. Variety and contrast. Projection. + Unison, "oneness", balance in performance and spacial awareness between partners in pairs and ice dance
Choreography/Composition: Purpose. Proportion. Unity. Utilization of personal and public space. Pattern. Ice Coverage. Phrasing and form. Originality. + shared responsiblity in achieving prupose in pairs and dance.
Interpretation: Timing. Expression. Use of finesse to reflect the music's nuances.

A lot of these "bullets" can be judged objectively, while others will of course be subjective.

ILoveFigures said:

The has been a lot of critique from skaters, coaches and judges alike that the use of the 1-10 range has been too narrow for too long, and we are finally seeing better use of this range.

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It's laughable you think the range is too narrow. Should we just give some free 9 or 10 to the top 3 or 4 'reputation' skaters so that we'll see more of the Chan-like results? I bet you're very happy with Chan winning those competitions with three falls time and time again because judges can toss out those perfect pcs as free gift. You must also be quite happy a 2-triple Korpi can score 105 since she's so artistic.

Honestly, I'm trying to remain calm but this is becoming quite frustrating. Comparing PCS scores across years, events, skaters, etc. is utterly pointless. It's ridiculous to continue to assert that their PCS is indicative of all judges thinking this particular program is the best packaged in the history of COP. It's the best packaged at the events they've competed in and possibly of the season. But that's as far as I'll go. That's why I have never liked the world record or personal best concept. It's also why the ISU now uses the season's best model. Standards change from season to season and perceptions vary by panel and judge.

Also this continual focus on that singular, bloody ten in the SD is tiring. So one judge gave an out of line score. It's not the first time, nor the last. It did not flip the result or harm W/P in any way. That's unless you honestly think they deserved to be ahead of D/W. If you do, then that's another argument. Otherwise, it's not the end of the world, not the first time it's happened. What matters more is that W/P improved their own scores, performance, execution and maintained their ranking ahead of B/S.

For Pete's sake, S/Z got a ten in their LP in Vancouver despite having an obvious error that caused them to finish second in that segment. No one really made a fuss about them then as if it would cause the sky to fall. It's situations like that that cause me to feel that D/W are being targeted in particular rather than the scoring trend more broadly.

BTW D/W and V/M have met ONCE in a full event since 2010 Worlds. So all of this score angst regarding D/W vs them is entirely an abstract argument. It comes across as panicky.

skateflower said:

It's laughable you think the range is too narrow. Should we just give some free 9 or 10 to the top 3 or 4 'reputation' skaters so that we'll see more of the Chan-like results? I bet you're very happy with Chan winning those competitions with three falls time and time again because judges can toss out those perfect pcs as free gift. You must also be quite happy a 2-triple Korpi can score 105 since she's so artistic.

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You know what, you seem so bitter and rude after I have readyour posts, that I don't see the point of trying to say something constructive to you.

^ I don't think people are picking on Davis and White in particular. I think it is just, they didn't skate their best so they shouldn't get tip-top marks.

Same with Shen and Zhou in 2010. The sky didn't fall because of over-generous scoring, but the event was diminished.

editied to add: This is replying to JCoats' post #33 above.

Really Mathman? The creator of this thread has been highly and irrationally focused on D/W in recent posts. In the COR thread multiple comments have been focused solely on that 10 being undeserved to the point that they virtually imply that D/W were undeserving of being placed first in the SD. In addition, that one mistake and people's feelings about it as well as the score seems to have extended to how an entirely separate program in the FD is being perceived. The unspoken suggestion is that if they did not deserve a ten in the SD, then they certainly did not deserve any in the FD. There's also the constant creeping suggestion that even when not in direct competition with V/M, they must always be compared to them and held the same performance standard despite facing different panels. There's also the old refrain that on balance, D/W can never be better than V/M regardless of how hard they work or how much they improve. That is based on an assumption that only V/M's style of ice dance is ideal or even acceptable. (BTW, similar narrow-minded thinking is responsible for all the obsession with balletic lines, posture and movement among singles and pairs skaters as the sole ideal for presentation.) That's been the case since they turned senior. What's the point of trying to pass this off as a sport if sentiments like that are consistently held? Is it only fair when V/M are winning and unchallenged? Is it suddenly unfair, a conspiracy or time to abandon ice dance when another team works their hearts out and passes them?

People claim they want variety in skating. But really, many do not. What they want is to see their preferences rewarded and their opinions gratified. Once they settle on a favorite skater or team, all others suddenly must mimic their form of presentation, movement, technique, etc. or be dismissed as inferior. V/M are not perfect. Yet you'd never know that if went by their uber fans' opinions. It is possible to have different strengths that add up to relatively equal results. I would argue that V/M and D/W are as equal as we've seen in skating between top skaters since at least Asada and Kim or Yagudin and Plushenko. When they go head to head consistently, they trade results back and forth. Since they've only met once in a complete event in nearly two years, both of their results this season exist in a bit of a vacuum. Why not be patient and wait for a real head to head match-up?

Buttercup said:

I've edited out parts, but ITA with what IP wrote (except being a Shen/Zhao fan in 2002, I could approach the whole situation dispassionately and always felt B/S were the rightful winners). Among sports fans, there is an expectation that you prove yourself by sticking with your favorite through good times and bad - otherwise you are a fair weather fan, not truly worthy, just basking in reflected glory (to use a more psychological term ). But this is usually in reference to a fan's attachment to a team or an athlete, not a sport. I enjoy baseball, but I'm only invested in the Braves (this has taught me a lot about dealing with disappointment, obviously ). I like skating, but I'm attached to specific skaters, not to the entire sport.

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Well, I'm a huge fan of both SLC teams and I firmly believe that B&S were the rightful silver medalists at that competition.

I'm a fan of a lot of sports and for team sports, I am a die-hard Blue Jays fan through thick and thin. But skating is different. I am a fan of great skating, and not necessarily of one particular skater. I am always ready to cheer for the Canadian kids but some of my all-time favourite skaters are from other countries. I wasn't in any way disappointed when Kulik beat Elvis at Nagano, because I like Kulik's skating. Plus being fans of multiple skaters, if one does poorly, the other is apt to do well.

ILoveFigures said:

The problem has been that these guidelines have been in place for many years, more or less from the start of the IJS. The problem that has been is that the best skaters in the world aren't above average or good skaters. They are usually very good or superior, and occasionally they are outstanding. The has been a lot of critique from skaters, coaches and judges alike that the use of the 1-10 range has been too narrow for too long, and we are finally seeing better use of this range. Again, the best skaters in the world aren't just good skaters, they are usually superior, and finally the judges dare showing this, which has been a problem for a long time. There has been a big push internaly within the ISU that the use of this range should be better.

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There were a couple of 9s for Sasha Cohen and Navka/Kostamarov in the first year of the new system, but then it seemed there was a recalibration and the few judges' enthusiasm for using high scores was dialed back. Almost as if there was a memo to wait and save those scores until someone could show performance/choreography/interpretation on par with Janet Lynn or John Curry or Torvill & Dean combined with 21st century tech content.
On the other hand, some international judges might have been thinking in terms of international standards only and forgetting that the bottom end of the scale had to be used for skating that was not worthy of a JGP assignment.

Mathman said:

I think the problem is that the IJS has one scale for skaters at all levels. If a pre-juvenile at his first competition can get a 2, then in comparison Davis and White deserve 1000. Also, you wouldn't want to tell the beaming parents of that pre-juvinile champion that his skating was "poor," and that the judge that gave him a 1.75 thought he was "very poor."

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It's rare for IJS to be used at prejuvenile in the US (starts at juvenile, but some club competitions offer the option to try it out a level lower). 2.0 or 1.75 are pretty solid scores for that level.

Under 6.0, the meanings of the numbers are similar, just on a narrower scale (0-6 instead of 0-10):
0.0 = not skated
1.0 = very poor
2.0 = poor
3.0 = mediocre
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = outstanding

However, at the lower levels open marking is rarely used so skaters only get to see their ordinals, not the exact scores they received. So in 6.0 judges are free to let the scale float to what they're comfortable with and to use a wide range between highest and lowest score for skaters at the same general skill level if that helps them keep track of their placements.

See rule 4911 in the USFS rulebook: http://usfigureskating.org/Content/201112Rulebook.pdf

The only solution I can see is to impose some kind of logarithmic "learning curve" at the top levels. It should be relatively easy to move up from 6.25 to 6.50, but to move up from 9.50 to 9.75 you really have to show me something.

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That might essentially be happening. How can it be made more precise and more consistent from one judge to the next?

jcoates said:

For Pete's sake, S/Z got a ten in their LP in Vancouver despite having an obvious error that caused them to finish second in that segment. No one really made a fuss about them then as if it would cause the sky to fall.

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That kind of thing happened under 6.0 as well.
For example

jcoates said:

For Pete's sake, S/Z got a ten in their LP in Vancouver despite having an obvious error that caused them to finish second in that segment. No one really made a fuss about them then as if it would cause the sky to fall.

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That was one time I was so glad that marks were being given out generously. It would have been so awful if that strange stumble on the lift had cost Shen and Zhao, clearly the class of the field for that Olympic cycle, the gold.

The focus on a single judge who gave D&W a 10 in the SD is funny.

If that judge had slapped a fly or saw a pigeon in the sky, or had a itch on his lower lip, he might not have seen Charlie slip.

The techs took no deductions at all; the judge did not see Charlie fall; there wasn't a single bad tech call.

So tell me how that judge would know? Meryl and Charlie were not slow. All he saw was good to go?

And so he gave the kids a ten; he likely goofed and will again. We all will screw up now and then. God has not yet made perfect men.

Or women either.