Flip Jump: Why is it harder than the toe loop?

ivy · Dec 29, 2011

In skates the best I can manage is a mediocre waltz jump, but I try out the other jumps in my socks on my kitchen floor. I'm wondering why a Flip is harder then a Toe Loop. In both you start out with an edge curving in the direction you're planning on spinning, then tap in with the other toe pick and then land on your right outside edge (for cw jumpers - correct?). In socks a flip seems theoretically easier (my landings are always cheated though

) but I know in skates flips are harder. Is it the inside edge for the entrance that's less secure? Just the coordination of switching the skating foot mid jump? The fact that most people have stronger right sides? Thanks in advance!!

Blades of Passion · Dec 29, 2011

Your body naturally pulls into the rotation on the toeloop as you pick in. With the Flip you have to do more work.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 30, 2011

Also the way the flip takes off it isn't prerotated, nor is the lutz. Toe loops, loops, salchows and axels can be prerotated 1/4 turn.

treesprite · Jan 2, 2012

I think the flip is harder even without skates, because the same leg is doing all the work. IMO, doing toe loops is like eating marshmallows.

As far as pre-rotating those jumps, it's one thing when doing singles, but the cheat takes away some of the power needed to get up into the air for long enough to get in 2 and 3 revolutions. It seems to me that the 1/4 turn requires keeping weight down on the ground longer and causes the legs to be too opened.

mskater93 · Jan 2, 2012

The flip should take off from a very slight inside edge (almost a flat) while with the toe loop the back outside edge has to come around a bit more for a proper pick in. Kind of elaborating BoP's description.

Tinymavy15 · Jan 6, 2012

Yes, when done off-ice when you try and jump with no speed the toeloop is a lot simpler. Personally the flip has always been my best jump. I taught myslef the single and because I got so much more height on them than any of my other jumps they were almost always a consistent double for me.

gsrossano · Jan 8, 2012

I find the toe loop a very awkward jump compared to the flip. On the flip when you pull up over the pick, the free leg just naturally comes into the right place for the air position and the rotation is not ubstructed. In the toe loop when you pull up over the pick the free leg pulls back into the tapping leg, and then the tapping leg has to get from behind to in front as you pull into the air position, so your legs kind of get in each other's way. At least that's the way it feels to me, the toe loop cramped and awkward, but the flip with a feeling of free and easy rotation.

bigsisjiejie · Jan 8, 2012

gsrossano said:
I find the toe loop a very awkward jump compared to the flip. On the flip when you pull up over the pick, the free leg just naturally comes into the right place for the air position and the rotation is not ubstructed. In the toe loop when you pull up over the pick the free leg pulls back into the tapping leg, and then the tapping leg has to get from behind to in front as you pull into the air position, so your legs kind of get in each other's way. At least that's the way it feels to me, the toe loop cramped and awkward, but the flip with a feeling of free and easy rotation.

I have an identical description but exactly opposite. The flip is awkward for me compared to the toe loop, because the free leg on the toe loop comes naturally into place, whereas on the flip I feel blocked and obstructed and my legs get in each others' way. The toe loop has the free and easy rotation, so much so that even learning the thing for the first time as an adult in my mid-30's, I could easily get enough height and torque to nearly get around two rotations from the outse...and that was without a prerotation cheat. (Now control for landing a double was a different story, ha ha. :laugh:

) I can easily see why elite skaters with technique and strength to get high enough, could get a quad out of a toe loop. The single flip was a hard jump for me to get, compared to the single lutz which came surprisingly easily (real lutz, not a flutz). Go figure.

So by now, we have probably hopelessly confused the OP....

gsrossano · Jan 8, 2012

Just goes to show why different people have different strengths and weaknesses in their skating.

Another thing that I think is in play that makes the toe loop easier to learn is that for most people the toe loop (single for example) does not have a full 360 in the air. The hook into and out of the jump on a deep edge makes for maybe 180-270 in the air. Just like the loop. The flip generally is a full rotation in the air, or nearly so. If you push it too hard, it can even be over-rotated. So when first learning to rotate in the air, the jumps that don't require a full rotation in the air are a little easier.

Mathman · Jan 8, 2012

I found this series of videos by Michael Weiss to be very informative. (Sorry about the ads.)

http://www.monkeysee.com/play/2332-ice-skating-the-flip-jump

Weiss shows clearly what most people on this thread have been saying. The flip is harder in principle (YMMD) because the closed hip obstructs the rotation, while in the toe loop the hip opens in the direction of rotation, making a little pre-rotation inevitable and the jump easier to rotate.

ivy · Jan 8, 2012

bigsisjiejie said:
So by now, we have probably hopelessly confused the OP....

OP here - feeling informed and enlightened. I knew there wasn't one easy answer before I started and I have a much more nuanced view of the mechanics of the jump. Being pulled towards you leg that kicks in and figuring out how to twist your legs together are things I hadn't really thought about. I did know that it was easier to 'cheat' a toe loop - though hadn't translated that into the jump being a bit easier all together.

Interesting about someone finding lutz easier then the flip - guessing that the counter curving edge gives one the opportunity to 'wind-up' a bit before pushing off into the air.

bigsisjiejie · Jan 9, 2012

As stated above, I came to skating late (mid-30's) but because I had strength and power (but not grace or control!), and good strong and deep edges, I didn't have trouble holding the lutz edge and getting off it cleanly without a rockover to the inside. You don't really want to "wind up" too much because then you can't get unwound--or you end up in a horribly contorted position a la Caroline Zhang. To me though, the secret of learning the lutz is speed and no hesitation. I don't see how anybody can pull off a lutz by crawling timidly into it. My nemesis was the loop, in which learning the single, I actually broke my tailbone. Ouch. Try explaining to your boss why for a few weeks you have to stand at your desk to work. :laugh:

None of the standard methods of teaching that loop jump worked with me. It was really a mental block--the only way I could do it was to just do a bunch of threes, mohawks, and rotational footwork as a lead-up sequence (to distract myself), then jump up into it real fast so I didn't have time to think and dread the takeoff. Practicing a lot of them in a row is also hard on the adult hip, which never seemed to be a problem with the other jumps. I hate that loop jump, I truly do and it still gives me nightmares even though I don't skate much anymore.

mskater93 · Jan 9, 2012

You got that right on the Lutz - the more you "reverse wind up" the more likely you are going to flip the edge over trying to get in the air. I find on the Lutz that if I am set with my shoulders over the skating edge AND NO FURTHER that at worst I make a flat in the last 5 or so inches before leaving the ice versus flipping it over.

lcd · Mar 14, 2012

flip is so much easier for me than toe loop. toe loop for me is like "wha?" my hips do not jive with the whole to loop thing. flip and the whole 'pole vault' seems so much more ... logical. But my hips are screwy.

leafygreens · Apr 18, 2012

Flip is easier for me than toe loop. I find that since your body's already aligned with flip that is what makes it easier, but with toe loop you have to lurch your body around a lot farther to get "over" it in the air.

mskater93 · Apr 19, 2012

If you are "lurching your body around", you've been taught a toe loop incorrectly.

A toe loop should have no upper body movement and no lurching. It should be super easy...

Ladskater · Apr 21, 2012

I did not find the Flip jump that difficult, but certainly found the Lutz harder. Jumping takes a lot of "spring" so maybe that is what you need to work on. Use your knees!

jjane45 · Apr 23, 2012

Another vote for flip and my toe loop is either awkward or cheated. Now why is Lutz THAT much harder than flip???!

antmanb · Apr 23, 2012

The toe-loop is my money jump. I love it. If it isn't working on any given day it's not going to be good jump day.

I have found the loop, flip and lutz much more difficult than the toe-loop and salchow, and still lose those three jumps sometimes for months at a time. When I start landing the flip it becomes very reliable and I love doing it as much as the toe-loop. But the loop gives me fits every time. I think generally I just prefer the toe jumps to edge jumps.

gkelly · Apr 23, 2012

And I prefer edge jumps.

But of the toe jumps, flip is my favorite.

The toe loop is more reliable -- I can pretty much count on always landing a toe loop or salchow no matter how little I've practiced lately or how tired I am at the end of a program -- but it doesn't feel as much like a "real" jump. It's possible to walk through the toe loop, whereas with a flip, you actually have to get up off the ice to get the rotation.

We won't even talk about the #*&@! lutz

Flip Jump: Why is it harder than the toe loop?

ivy

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

drivingmissdaisy

treesprite

mskater93

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

gsrossano

bigsisjiejie

gsrossano

Mathman

ivy

bigsisjiejie

mskater93

lcd

Match Penalty

leafygreens

mskater93

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

jjane45

antmanb

gkelly

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