Strong Opinions v. Bashing

Given the recent comments on a thread about Sasha, so many other topics appeared. There are probably more than I list here but I believe they (and others) need to be ironed out. I would have preferred to have saved the following topics for the Summer Doldrums but I think they should be addressed now and by the Members:

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
____________________________________________

It would be most appreciated if you can reply to the above questions without recourse to provoking tempers to rise

Joe

Interesting questions.

A.) Strong opinion - here I'd say that's your personal approach towards a person and even if it's very bad, it's not bashing as long as you formulate it in a way that the person in question can understand that it's just an opinion and no verbal attack.

B.) Illness as an excuse for a bad performance - yes it is. If anbody skates ill, she/he should state this BEFORE her/his performance, as it shows that the skater just couldn't perform at his usual standards due to illness and not due to lack of training, or any other reasons in his responsibility. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse to get higher marks from the judges by making use of the "pitty-factor."

C.) IMO there is nothing wrong with bringing out assumptions as long as the poster makes it clear, that they are just assumptions and not facts. (However, unconfirmed rumours might be something else.)

D.) If there is a strong connection between both topics so that it makes more sense to discuss them in relation to each other.

Hi Joe...

I looked at your list and gave this some thought.

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

I don't think so. I think where trouble occurs is in a couple areas:
- The poster neglects to show respect for differing opinons.
- The poster becomes overly passionate that everyone should come around to sharing that opinion. ("I am RIGHT and you are WRONG", as opposed to "let's agree to disagree.")
- The poster presents an opinion as though it were fact. (i.e. statements about a skaters personal life that one cannot possibly know without a personal relationship with that skater)

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

I think this is a matter of opinon. At least to us fans who are not in the skaters shoes to know for sure what affected them or not.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

I think communication in this forum would be pretty limited without assumptions. I think the problem begins when assumptions are presented as though they are facts.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

I think that's a matter of opinion. Certainly all of us are free to suggest starting a separate thread, and to start that separate thread if, in someone's opinion, the topic should be considered separately.

Respect for each other is really the key. If we collectively show respect in what we say and how we say it then problems will be minimal. I'm certainly not perfect in this regard, but am always willing to make ammends if I am out of line. (so let me know if there any any issues!!)

In closing I'd like to thank the moderators and members of this board who on whole, make this the best skating fan board on the internet in my opinion.

DG

Just because someone has very strong opinons about skater A to skater B doesn't makes it bashing. To me bashing someone would be just totaling trashing them and and just down right rude.
It seems to me that skaters always use the sick excuse or I didn't have time to train or I've been having equipement problem when they have a bad performace.
As to a related topic, could be in the way the topic is started then tends to lead back to whats already been hashed out in a previous thread.
When posting I never expect everyone to agree with what my opinions, and I don't always agree with everyone else. That's good because that's what make it all interesting, seeing everything form different points of view.

Joesitz said:

Given the recent comments on a thread about Sasha, so many other topics appeared. There are probably more than I list here but I believe they (and others) need to be ironed out. I would have preferred to have saved the following topics for the Summer Doldrums but I think they should be addressed now and by the Members:

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
____________________________________________

It would be most appreciated if you can reply to the above questions without recourse to provoking tempers to rise



Joe

Click to expand...

Thanks Joe for giving us this oppertunity to talk back!! The tone of this board has been uncharacteristicly sour latley, that sasha thread had me so scared to reply, I just lurked Many people on these boards are adults, why can't some people act with the sence their parents tought them. Namely if you absolutly nothing but negative things to say don't say them all. Bashing really brings down the quaility of discoure on GS. But remember other posters can be bashed just like skaters can be. Let's not bash each other!!

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?
No. Having a strong opinion, that is backed up with support for that line of reason adds to the civil discourse on GS. Critiqueing a skating performance is one thing but judging a skater as a person, a human being, is another. Bashing is when that line is crossed and a poster is just spiting negatives at a skater.
<<EXAMPLE of BASHING<<
Poster A:
"Skater B is inconsistant she always falls!! She failed to medal at nationals last year bacause she can't keep it together. She will never be a champion and she sucks. If I ever see her at a comp. I'll give her the middle finger. Rmemeber at NHK on the podium she keept all the other medalist waithing to start the ceromony while she was "powdering her nose". Powdering her nose, yeah right she is a total diva. I have heard from my sources at her rink that can attest to her bitchiness. she even cussed out her coach one time, I heard. "

<<Example of Strong Opioion<<
Skater B is inconsistant. In her last 5 comps. she only landed 5 triples. That less then 1 triple per comp. !! If she can get her act together she will be awesome but I don't see that happening soon. A shame really because she has nice footwork and sprials but last year nationals it wasn't enough as she be came human zamboni. She needs more "ooutph" out there, more speed, more style. Untill then she's skating for 7th at worlds.

You can still be critical without all the personal attacks.


Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
I do believe that injury and/or illness can influence a performance. I tend not to be too hard on the athelets because they want to compete and in doing so give us a lot of pleasure in watching them skate. If they have an illness at one competition I will accept that as a valid reasone for them not performaning to their standard.(Didn't your mom ever write a note to school when you were sick??) Lay off


Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
No. It is ok to bring out assumptings AS LONG AS YOU ADMIT YOU ARE MAKING ASSUMTIONS.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
My standard is how much does the added topic have anything to do with "SKATING".

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

***A strong opinion, expressed tactfully and using appropriate vocabulary, is just that-a strong opinion...UNLESS, during the course of verbalizing that opinion, one chooses to "make their point" by negatively using another skater as an example...then...YES, it could still be just a strong opinion, but more often than that, turns into a b*tchfest on the other skater. I have strong opinions, both positive and negative, for certain skaters...but try to remain a civil human being***

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

***Being a nurse, H*ll yes it is! Come on! Just because these people are trained athletes does NOT mean they are going to be "on" all the time. It's hard to be "on" with food poisoning...the flu....fever....injury....etc. When I have any of those things, *I* personally feel like crap, and my job is not nearly as physical as these people! So yeah, it is an excuse....whether or not the skater might have had a poor performance anyway, even without illness, is beside the point, since it can't be known (Monday morning quarterbacking anyone?) I'm not at all a Sasha fan...but if she was sick at the nationals, I feel for her, and think she did a dang good job, considering.***

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

***What is that quote about "assume"? You just make an ass out of "u" and "me"? Assumptions, in my mind, are like good intentions...pretty dangerous things in the hands of the amateur! I think if you clearly state it is YOUR ASSUMPTION, and therefore not God given FACT...it can be okay....but still tricky, because people don't usually read the "fine print", and may well miscontrue what you say (but of course, that is just people being stupid, something that I could have a nice LONNNNGG diatribe about!)***

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

***An added topic, I would assume by definition, would ADD understanding and further information about the MAIN topic. But no, alas, normally it just takes the main topic, bashes it into the ground and runs off on a tangent! (The recent "Great Yagudin photos" turning into "Did he deserve the Olympic gold" thread comes to mind).

Thanks for the questions Joesitz....definitely worthy of thought, by everyone, before they start sloppily posting again (MYSELF quite included!)

Kasey

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

Message boards exist (in my mind) to voice strong opinions. Strong opinions are interesting because they often reveal so much about a person's passions, morals, motives, etc. And for the most part, GS has always been a haven for (what seems to be lately anyway) the small contingent of reality-based figure skating fans that can share their strong opinions with one another in an appropriate fashion. But, as we all know, sometimes the trash sneaks through the gate with a nose bleed ticket and a bad attitude! These are people that can't keep a proper handle on the passions that inspire opinion. That is the pivotal point I believe, when you realize you are passionate about something and then must decide how to properly package this passion in order to share it with others. To me, a good, passionate opinion is one that is carefully thought out and fact-based while still retaining its fervor. Yet, it seems that some people don't have time to weigh things so carefully, and for those the quickest way to garner attention is to depend on pure shock-value and malice. Thankfully, I still find GS to be the best all-around board for figure skating. Cetainly, we've had a time of it lately, but the competitive season is at its height so that is to be expected. I say just boycott the bashing posts! All they want in the end is a 15 page thread that is the result of their ill-tempered post. (SORRY, A LITTLE LONG-WINDED, LOL!)

Is illness an excuse for a poor performance?

I don't see how it couldn't be. I don't know many people that leave the bed with the flu, much less take part in a physically demanding, high profile sporting event. But, having said that, I also think that performing under any circumstance (and that includes illness) is something professional/amateur athletes must be prepared to do. Everything rarely falls into place and a true athlete must be ready to deal with anything. As people have mentioned in other threads, I think the best examples of that are seen with Elvis at the 1998 Olympics and Michelle at the 1999 Worlds. They knew it was part of the game. They gave everything they could at the moment given the circumstances. Is it a valid excuse for their less-than-stellar performances? Sure, but they didn't harp on it. You can always feel your completely ready for something, but unforeseen factors will always play a role. And as far as I know, Sasha hasn't harped on any "illness" either.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

I agree with the concensus so far. As long as it is clearly defined as an assumption, I don't see how it could be wrong.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

That really depends on the situation. If someone can make a good argument and tie the two together coherently, I'm game!

"bashing", like figure skating judging, is completely subjective. Each of us draws a line between criticism and down right insult, but that line is in a different place for each of us. Every single poster here is going to have a different threshold. I've seen people on the web throw an absolute tissy over nothing. I've also been shocked at what some others will comfortably post.

As for assumption and speculaton, I've noticed that on the web, it's usually perfectly acceptable to assume the most outragous stuff, personaly things, etc.. just as long as they are positive. ex: "I think it's so sweet that the Cohens are so close knot of a family that the Mom and sister have moved to CT to be with Sasha!" I see this type of post all the time and the writer is never challenged.

But God help the poster who puts just as much assumption and speculation into a theory that has a negative slant to it! A constant barage of "you don't know them!" "you're just making assumptions!, etc... will rain down like thunder.

These board are suposidly for discussion. You'd never know that from the way some people object to any thought that is contrary to thier own.

I'm so pleased with the responses so far. All the responses have a posititve approach to the questions put forward.

Thank you so much, Evdoikia, Doggygirl, Jhar, Kwanisqueen, Kasey, Bronzegolden and Berthes Ghost.

It would be nice to put these into a pamphlet for all members to digest. Just a thought which is not practical.

Hopefully, there will be more responses.

Joe

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing? No- The difference lies in the respect, consideration, and good manners posters show each other. The 'Golden rule'is particularly applicable here.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
I put myself in the skater's place and wince whenever I see criticism of 'excuses'. A skater comes off the ice, hurting, one of the first questions they are asked is- '' Why?'' It seems no matter what the answer is- they will be accused of making excuses. Frankly, it seems unfair to get critical of people in that situation.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
I agree with the others. As long as it is not presented as fact, I don't have a problem with it.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

I am pretty liberal on the issue. No one can hold a conversation by themselves. If others agree to exchange opinions, good enough. You can get somes interesting threads by going with the flow.

Joesitz said:

Given the recent comments on a thread about Sasha, so many other topics appeared. There are probably more than I list here but I believe they (and others) need to be ironed out. I would have preferred to have saved the following topics for the Summer Doldrums but I think they should be addressed now and by the Members:

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
____________________________________________

It would be most appreciated if you can reply to the above questions without recourse to provoking tempers to rise

Joe

Click to expand...

Thanks for asking these questions Joe.

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?
While I think it's true that one person's bash is another's strong opinion, I also think that on a general forum like GS, there has to be a line drawn that reflects the majority of GSer's feelings. What may be fine on another board may not be what most GSers want and I think posts like these are a good way of ascertaining what most GSers think. For me, I'm all for strong opinions on any issue as long as skaters or posters are not personally attacked. Recently a skater was called a "liar" and the poster went on to write, "as a person I find you hateful." The post went on an on in this same vein. A number of people, even those who said they were not a fan of the skater expressed their outrage at this post. I think the question we have to ask ourselves, meaning GS as a forum, is do we want to let posts like that stand and leave it up to forum members to tell that poster what they think? Or should the policy be that posters PM the person they felt was bashing and ask that it be toned down? Or do we want to be able to complain directly to the moderators about such posts?

I see pros and cons to all three approaches: With approach 1 and 2, if posters critisize a poster for bashing or PM him/her and ask that the bashing be toned down or deleted, the "basher" may attack the poster(s), or the posters may hesitate to say something for fear of being attacked. With approach 3, I think the mods have done an excellent job of telling a poster when s/he is out of line, but they can't catch everything.

I'm leaning toward letting the mods know if you think someone is bashing a skater to the point where you think the post should be deleted, but ONLY if it's really WAY out of line. I believe the "Sasha is hateful and a liar" post on the "Disappointed for Sasha" thread is an example of a post that should be deleted. Deleting, IMO, is not to change the fact that people have already seen it; it's the mods sending a message to the person who wrote it (after the person has been given a chance to change or delete is him/herself) that such attacks are crossing the line on GS and also letting other posters know where that line is.

I agree with others that severely attacking a skater or poster's character in a way that is "beyond the pale" so to speak, using clear attack language is bashing. I think it should be deleted or changed by the person who wrote it if three posters or more complain or ask the person, respectfully, to do so. If the person does not respond, I think the mods should be notified. Obviously the mods will decide on how to handle it from there.

Bottomline, I think most of the time GS does a great job of keeping respect for each other. However, sometimes certain posters (love the "nose bleed tickets" analogy, BronzeisGolden) come along to bash skaters or posters, or else badger posters by constantly picking apart every word of every post. I think what we want to avoid is having posters feel that they don't want to post for fear of being bashed or badgered. Whichever approach makes people feel they don't want to post or that GS does not allow free expression of opinion within the guidelines hurts everyone at GS and the forum in general, IMO. There are plenty of forums around where bashing is not only tolerated but welcome. As others have said, they would like for GS to be a haven from that and I couldn't agree more. I'm no angel--duh!--and have lost my temper at times, but I have always tried to make amends.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
I think it's a matter of whether the skater consistently uses injury, illness, or "something" as an excuse or if it's a one-time or rare occurrence. I also think it depends on how the skater relates the information. If it's at a press conference after a loss with no medical substantiation, then I can see people being suspicious. If a doctor verifies the situation (ie, Yags, Tim, Tara, just three examples), I see no basis for dissing the skater. If it's made in a journal that is intended for the skater's fans, I can see nonfans being skeptical, but I think skepticism is one thing, proclaiming the skater is lying is quite another. Bottom line: Depends on the situation.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
Agree with others who say as long as the poster makes it clear that these are assumptions, and that they don't try to state assumptions as if they were facts.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
I think if something takes a facet of the main topic and adds more factual information to it, which people may then voice their opinions on, it's fine--as long as some part of the initial topic remains in the thread every so often as it moves along. I think the "Disappointed for Sasha" thread is a good example of one that would have benefitted from starting a separate thread on the shingles issue.
Rgirl
PS: Joe, your mailbox is full.

Rgirl has just made a crucial point about freedom of speech. Obviously everyone is for the First Amendment. But when you undertake to harass a fellow poster to the extent that that person does not want to post any more -- that impedes a free exchange of ideas.

As for bashing a skater, I just cannot form any idea in my mind as to what would motivate anyone to do that.

Mathman

In general, I would agree with deleting a post that is really bashing, but on the other hand, I also think leaving it there for everyone to see may be a good idea too. It would let everyone know what kind of a person the poster is. A really fine line.

IMO, if poster resorts to a name calling -- it's bashing, pure and simple. It is absolutely possible to express one's strong opinion without using epithets like "disgusting," "hateful," "liar," etc.

I wasn't sure how to respond, but I'll give it a try. I don't normally like confrontation (who does?) so I usually take the cowards way out and back away, but........


"Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?"
It would depend upon the wording and the intent. A rule of thumb might be to not put in print anything you wouldn't be willing to say to someone in person. Posting seems safe. Comments made one day may not be responded to for minutes, hours, days. An upset or angry poster may not feel the same at a later time than when they made their original post.

"Is illness an excuse for poor performance?"
I think it's safe to say that not many of us really know the skaters, coaches, announcers, we are posting about, or how they felt the day of their competition. Sure, being sick affects performance, no doubt about it, so why doubt their words when they say they were not up to par?

"Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?"
Misunderstood assumptions should be clarified. It's not whether or not it's wrong to bring them out, but the wording used in doing so. Be polite and courteous. (sounds like a Boy Scout rule!)

"What makes an added topic related to a main topic?"
I think it's human nature to segue a bit, adding what we know or what we've experience during a discussion of any kind, as long as you're able to pull the topic back to the original discussion.
42

Originally posted by Joesitz ]

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Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

I think it depends a lot how a strong opinion is being expressed, worded.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

I see it as a good excuse, but of course it depends a lot how the skater expresses it. I saw no problem in it that Sasha told about shingles in her diary for the fans to read. It is great as skaters take the time to share matters with their fans. Generally speaking though I think that it would look better perhaps if the info about a skater´s illness would come from the skater´s coach if interviewed.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

I think it depends what kind of assumptions they are and if it comes out in the posting clearly that it is a question of an assumption.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

LOL, oh my, I know that I have been quilty many times about mentioning matters which are not even related to the topic... Anyway, I think if an added topic is something about which one can guess beforehand that it will bring lots of comments, it is perhaps better to start a new topic. Besides if one is later looking for something, it is not easy to find if one has to go through an extremely long thread. Of course one can use "search", but...
____________________________________________

It would be most appreciated if you can reply to the above questions without recourse to provoking tempers to rise
Joe

I think that would be good in any topic, if one has a short fuse to wait until an "anger" is kind of over...

One thing I think that any forum would benefit regarding a pleasant visiting: No threads about other posters (however much some would feel provoked) or attacking other posters directly in a thread. If one thinks that it is a question of bashing, it is much better to handle matters privately plus directly with a moderator, in my opinion. Or just answer the topic without bashing the poster in question directly.

Marjaana

I just came across a passage in the book Opera for Dummies that made me think of this thread. It describes the testy relationship between composer Richard Strauss, and his librettist of 23 years, poet Hugo von Hofmannsthal:

Their correspondence is full of nasty quotes, couched in traditional niceties: 'This strikes me, forgive my honesty, as odious.'

'It is you alone who must take the blame.'

'Your ideas are rubbish...utter nonsense...truly horrible. Hope you are well.'

Click to expand...

Here is an example of what I would call bashing.

"(Commentator's name) is an impulsive, ill-informed motormouth."

Following is an excerpt from a post my own remarks in which I was critical of Scott Hamilton in a suitable context at the '98 Olympics.

"It appears to me that CBS, meaning Scott Hamilton, had some egg on their faces. As much as I love Scotty, I must say that he is not a good judge or analyst when commenting on TV, but he was nevertheless the “expert” commentator. He appears to judge with his heart while getting caught up in the heat of a performance, and then seems to be at a loss to reconcile his initial remarks with the outcome in an objective, technically informed manner. He all but crowned Michelle as the gold medalist immediately after she skated her LP, saying “I don’t think anybody can outskate her” even after acknowledging that her technical marks were a bit low. Tara made him eat his words, and I think Michelle had unwittingly given the network people a copout with her remarks in an interview just after her LP."

Note that I made a point of presenting a strong opinion of Scotty's performance without resorting to character assassination.

To digress a bit (added topic), here is a complete copy of my old post. I wrote it last year in response to questions about whether or not Michelle cost herself an Olympic gold by being cautious or tentative. If you wish to respond to it, I would answer the added topic question by example by recommending the starting of a new thread.

***

For the sake of argument let us suppose that the collective calls of the judges were good ones in both the Nationals and Olympics in 1998. My sincere opinion is that perhaps 10% of the change in the overall point spreads was Michelle’s slight regression from her stupendous performance at Nationals, with the other 90% being Tara’s improvement over her flawed Nationals performance.

Michelle’s Olympic LP did not seem tentative or labored to me while it was happening. Only when I compared my tapes side by side did I notice some places where she was a bit behind the music or had some ever-so-slight hesitation when entering a jump.

It appears to me that CBS, meaning Scott Hamilton, had some egg on their faces. As much as I love Scotty, I must say that he is not a good judge or analyst when commenting on TV, but he was nevertheless the “expert” commentator. He appears to judge with his heart while getting caught up in the heat of a performance, and then seems to be at a loss to reconcile his initial remarks with the outcome in an objective, technically informed manner. He all but crowned Michelle as the gold medalist immediately after she skated her LP, saying “I don’t think anybody can outskate her” even after acknowledging that her technical marks were a bit low. Tara made him eat his words, and I think Michelle had unwittingly given the network people a copout with her remarks in an interview just after her LP. She was still catching her breath after crying hysterically during the previous few minutes, and she described how she was thinking her way through the sequence and having some momentary “this is not good” thoughts as the program progressed. My guess is that during the many hours before the final edited package was telecast here in America, Scotty and others recalled her somewhat uptight demeanor during the warmup, the crying spell, and the remarks in that interview, and in the process put two and two together and got eight. By that I mean the possibility that they jumped to the conclusion that Michelle was tentative enough to have a seriously adverse impact on her marks. What they should have done was to remind us of Tara’s higher degree of difficulty and to acknowledge that she surprised everyone with her level of performance that night. The fact that the calls of some of the judges were questionable in light of Tara’s technical flaws does not preclude an explanation of how and why they arrived at their marks. The network people simply needed to do their homework on the prevailing judging criteria. Someone such as Joe Inman would have been happy to do some explaining. He did just that at Salt Lake City.

Subsequent generations of media people, many of whom appear to know little and care less about figure skating but are under the gun to write about it at Olympic time, naturally will look at what was said on CBS in ‘98 as the gospel truth and perhaps exaggerate it. Thus we have the sad spectacle of the ESPN Page Two staff, and others of their ilk, alleging that Michelle choked in ‘98 when she did nothing of the sort.

In anwer to your questons:

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

No - an opinion is an opinion and should be treated as such. I think it amounts to "bashing" or retaliation when a person feels they are being attacked and starts to resort to name calling or just loses respect for everyone concerned. Even if one does not agree wholly with someones' comments, tact and diplomacy should always be observed. It serves no purpose to become vicious.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

Well Elvis Stojko would say "No!" He never used that for an excuse. However, there are times when skaters do compete "under the weather" and certainly fans should be forgiving if a skater is not feeling well and has a poor skate. It happens. I don't think we should take it out on the skater though.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

We all know the old saying about assumptions! I guess, we should never assume anything really especially in the world of figure skating. Anything can happen.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

If it is an after thought or has something to do with the topic discussed.