Strong Opinions v. Bashing

[Flora MacDonald]

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?
No. I feel very liberal on this subject because I have strong opinions and want to feel free to express them. lol
I think the rules of libel ought to apply.
Truth is an absolute defense and you have to prove malicious intent.
Anything that is a reasonable conclusion drawn from public information isn't bashing.
"I don't like Philboyd Studge or his skating" is not bashing.
"Philboyd Studge is a narcissistic diva and skates like a hippopotomus in toe shoes" isn't bashing-it's just opinion and it might be true.
"Phiboyd Studge is a wife-beater who always votes Republican" is probably bashing if we don't have a conviction on public record.
"I hate Philboyd Studge!" isn't libelous but it would be nicer if people could tone it down and remember it's about skating.
"I hate Philboyd Studge's skating" would be more appropriate.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
Of course, I use it all the time at work.
I usually try to make up points lost in the technical with my amazing presentation.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
Not if they are based on fact from a reliable source.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
I don't think it matters much as long as the thread doesn't degenerate into posters attacking each other. It's particularly ludicrous when one poster will lecture another about staying on topic and there's a gazillion entries about who's on or off topic.

I don't think the commentary on skaters (except for potential libel) is nearly as important as a general goodwill among posters.

 

[skatepixie]

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

I think that wording matters.
~~Good Post~~
"I dislike <insert skater here> and find her boring. Her program did nothing for me and I fail to see where is should move me. She should try a diffrent program."
~~Slightly Strong Post~~
"<Insert skater here> is boring. Her program is boring. She needs some help and vatiations in it or she will never win worlds."
~~Borderline Post~~
"What is up with <insert skater here>? Her program is what? its a huge joke. Who would like that.?"
~~Bashing post~~
"<insert skater here>sux! Her fans must be nutcases. She needs to learn to skate, not glide arond and smile that plastic smile every single second. I hate her!"

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

DUH! If you are sick, youre sick. Period. End of story. I dont see why people dont understand that these programs are hard to do even under perfect conditions and even harder to do when you have been ill.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

I think that the poster needs to make it clear that they are assuming. Its also important to remember that assume makes an ass out of you an me. Whoever made that up is wonderful. Guessing is okay, but decided "why it really happened" w/out being there or having a good source (not a tab or similar) isnt really right. Basically, put yourself in the skaters position a bit.
These are people, and they have lives. Just because they made a lifestyle choice to skate on a high level and live in the public eye doesnt mean that you should assume everything.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

Ive never had a problem with things not being related here.

 

[windspirit]

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

I think it depends on how people word it, and on their intent.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

Again, it depends. Many, if not majority, of our posts are based on assumptions, and as long as we don't try to pass them as facts, that's OK. But I loved Kasey's "definition" of assumption. I guess she is onto something here.

Btw, I'm tired of people who, no matter what's been said and by whom, always assume the same things, and can "explain" everything with them. Most often variations: the skater X. is always wrong/is not a good skater. And they can go on and on and on... ad nauseam. Nothing can change their mind, and even if they're forced to admit something positive about the skater, they have to compensate by casting a doubt on a few other things. I call it "a negative fixation." If everyone knows which skater you don't like, and what you're going to say next, and that you're going to say it again... Pity, since some of them seem to have interesting things to say, if only they could get over their fixations...

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

I like a good thread drift. However, I can understand if others don't. Well, when I'm really interested in the main topic, I'm not keen on it, either. Like in that Yags thread with pics, and the following discussion about crowns, etc. Hello! A pic is worth a thousand words. About that pic, of course. (I'm kidding, if someone didn't get that.) I didn't mind the discussion about shingles. I thought it was rather on topic, plus I've learned so much about the illness. I didn't know that so many people had had it.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

That's rather an off topic question, isn't it? Let's use Sasha's example, since the question came from a thread about her. I didn't get the impression that she tried to use it as an excuse. I though she was just thinking aloud; analyzing what happened and looking for the reason why it did happen, and probably trying to rationalize it for herself a little, too. People had been making fun of her previous "fun" diary entry, saying that it's superficial; she didn't talk about her feelings, etc. So the next one was completely different: she did talk about her feelings, tried to analyze the situation, and showed herself from rather a vulnerable side.

Anyway, as I don't think the word 'excuse' fits here (it implies that skaters owe us something; I don't think they do) -- can an illness influence a skater's performance? It sure can. Did shingles influence Sasha's performance at Nats? Who knows. She certainly seems to have some other problem (be it concentration, nerves, etc.), but I from what I've read, I think she's been in a lot of stress for the last two months. That might've been a factor, too. You don't get shingles from feeling blue for one day.

 

[yelyoh]

Opinion =+/- bashing? If the poster uses logic and avoids ad hominem, no. It's a strong opinion.

Illness is a just excuse for a poor performance? It's relative. How sick vs. how poor. But Jenny Kirk's diary does illustrate that illness is not an automatic excuse. That girl's got guts!

The other two I have no opinion to state.

 

[rtureck]

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

I use the Tim Page or Norman Labrecht standard. If one is doing critque of a musician, skater, athletes' performance, no matter how strong is the opinion, it is an opinion. Page, or Lacrecht may say, "Kennedy, Bell, Kramer's (fill in the blanks) performance is so flat, uninspiring, flabby, too edgy, not edgy enough, totally out of intonation in the upper/ lower registry, (fill in the blanks)" It is not a bash. If they post their reactions to it, e.g. "The performance is so flat, boring, (fill in the blank) that I was bored to tears, left before the 3rd act, took a bathroom break etc, and my entire evening was ruin. I can not listen to that piece of music for 3 years" That is not a bash. They may predictibly say the same thing about Anne Sophe Mutter everytime they write a review, that is still OK. "Mutter's wide vibrato, and the total disreguard for the tempo markings ruined Vivaldi's 4 seasons for me for 3 years, until Shaham restored it back to favor" Since Mutter does have a wide vibrato, and tends to disreguard tempo markings, she would probably receive the same review from the same critic everytime. That is a strong repetitive opinion, not a bash. If one does not want to read Tim Page or Norman Lebrecht, then skip over their column, there is no need to belly ache over it.

It is nice if everyone can be so universally lovy, dovy, that they want the best skater to win, they have no preference.

Bashing has to IMHO involved in talking about the person, or the person's character, or invent some disease or mental state and pin it on them. Examples of bashing, "Skater A is a brat", "Skater B is not being sincere, she gives canned speeches, always telling the press that she is competing for fun, she loves competing"

There is this high school litmus test for bashing. "you are ugly and your mama is ugly" As people accquire more knowledge, they use sohpisticated disease state terms, "obsesse", "derived from some genetic building bases/ blocks" That is just variations on the same old "you are ugly, and your mama is ugly" theme.
Making up some disease state terms and pin that on the athlete, musician etc is bashing. "He must be manic depressive because...", "She has an eating disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, fixation on ......" That is both bashing and playing cyber space doctor, psychologist without a license

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

Yes

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

If people are drawing reasonable conclusion from evidence, that is not even assuming.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

As long as there is useful material, as long as they are having a nice time discussing and not hurting anyone, it is OK. I don't know how many times I have seen people talk about statistics here at GS. For someone like me who is statistically challenge, and can not tell a standard error from a chi square, I just skip over the messages. TThere is no need to make a huge fuss over it.

 

[show 42]

Clarification!

The word "excuse" has been used a lot, but is there a difference between an "excuse" why something did or didn't happen, and a "reason" why? Just curious..................42

 

[Piel]

I was thinking the same thing Show. According to the dictionary..

Excuse: (as a noun) a reason put forward as a ground for excusing a fault

Reason: motive or cause or justification of something

Reason sounds more like the truth while excuse sounds more like "I'll hope they'll buy it as the truth", IMO.

I believe illness is a good reason for a poor performance.

Piel

 

[BrokenAnkle]

Interesting topic

I've been on line since 1997 and I still don't know if there is a resolution to this question. But I kinda felt like un-lurking to toss out my thoughts FWIW


Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?
It truly depends, not just on how you are saying it but what you are criticising. Telling the truth is very big for me, so when a poster says or even implies a skater is lying, IOW, questioning the skater's integrity, I do consider that bashing, even for skaters I don't personally care for. I think strong negative opinions on a skaters appearance are precariously close to bashes as well. I understand we are here to discuss and not censor, but I realy think just adding a simple, "IMHO" to a strongly worded negative opinion can make a world of difference. For me personally, there is on skater I really dislike, his/her attitude, skating, even his/her character; what can be decerned from the brief glimpses in fluff pieces. But I do not feel comfortable even saying who that skater is. I think it would either anger or worse, hurt the feelings of the fans of the skater and I see no point or thrill in doing that. Now, I will practice what I preach and add a big IMHO to my thoughts!

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
Yes. Excuse, reason, whatever. Skating is hard, people fall, have bad skates under perfect circumstances. Skating while in pain or ill is a credit to a skater's commitment and sportsmanship, IMHO. But it is interesting, the three skaters who are being used as examples, Sasha at natls., Michelle at Worlds 1999 and Elvis at 1998 Olympics, they still skated pretty darn well! They all took silver under tough to impossible circumstances. I felt after watching Elvis in particular, that what he accomplished was a greater feat than just going out moderately healthy and winning gold. Skating a short and a long program in the kind of pain he was in and taking silver just seems incredible to me.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
If you are assuming something, you should say so, if for no other reason than to save face if you are wrong.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?
Well, I see threads go off on tangents a lot. I guess I think it goes too far when a few people are carrying a joke on and on in the same thread. I have never seen that here, BTW

BA

 

[BrokenAnkle]

Oh and one more thing

I wanted to add. I am more likely to read, and perhaps learn from a strong but respectful post than. And I do skip posts, even threads, begun by someone whose past posts suggest to me they are just going to bash whether it is overt or covert, LOL.

BA

 

[gsk8]

A rule of thumb might be to not put in print anything you wouldn't be willing to say to someone in person.

Gosh Show, you nailed it on the head! It's really not that complex, but some people just don't get it.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

 

[Ladskater]

gsk8:

Another golden rule as stated by Thumper in Bambi:

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all...."


http://images.allposters.com/images/81/048_PFD505.jpg

 

[berthes ghost]

Let's not forget that it's a 2 way street.

Peppering one's post with "IMHO" does soften the blow, but let's face it, 80% of what is written on a forum is IMHO. Other than a few facts like "skater x placed 3rd", most of what we write here, like "skater x performed with great speed, musicality and wore a beautiful costume that fit the music perfectly" is all completely IMHO. One shouldn't have to state the obvious over and over again just to avoid angry backlash from readers who disagree.

I agree that one probably shouldn't write something that one wouldn't say to someone's face. But...I wish that people on the web would stop treating informal forum posts like they are reading the New York Times. Just because it is written in black and white and you are reading someone's informal opinion doesn't nescessarily mean that posters are responsible for the same high standard as journalists. Think about it, if your friend said to your face "skater x has no musicality", you wouldn't start screaming at them "Prove it! I want a link with sources! Otherwise, it libel and you could be sued!". Well, at least I hope you wouldn't

 

[gsk8]

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?

When answering this question, I must first take out the word "strong" as any opinion can be perceived as "strong".

In my opinion, there really can be no "correct" answer to this question due to a variety of factors.

Here are a few: "tone" of the opinion, the person's posting history, perception of the responders in relation to their personal bias (for or against) the subject matter (as well as that of the poster), eduction (or lack thereof) in or of the subject matter, maturity level, as well as gender, race, cultural, and geographic (in relation to that of the subject matter) differences. The list can go on.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?

In my opinion, absolutely. In any and all cases.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?

Another trick question However, this would be a good time to bring out that old saying: When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U & ME.

In my opinion (and experience), no "good" is bound to come from an assumption.

What makes an added topic related to a main topic?

In my opinion, there may or may not be a relation at all. In the poster's mind, it may have everything to do with the topic, resulting in comparative posts which are prone to go off course eventually into other unchartered waters.

 

[Lucy25]

Another trick question However, this would be a good time to bring out that old saying: When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U & ME.

That's brilliant! I've never heard that before.

 

[Ladskater]

gsk8:

I hate email "short hand" such as IMHO or LOL. These modern day acronyms are overused.

Using IMHO usually indicates a person is stating their opinion - only with an apology. One should not have to apologize for stating an opinion. However, there is a way of stating an opinion diplomatically. I think most people state "IMHO" as a defense mechanism. Most of what we express here are our opinions and occasionally our own experience therefore it's sort of redundant to state the obvious.

Golden Skate is supposed to be a place for folks genuinely interested in the topic of figure skating to gather together and exchange banter about our favorite sport. It should not be a place to make enemies. Good grief, there is enough strife in the world!! I am sure our favorite skaters would be truly disappointed to know their fans were squabbling with one another. I can turn on the radio and listen to Hockey fans phoning in their "beefs" for the week, if I want that! This is not "Hockey Night in Canada."

There is the old joke:

"Last night I went to a fight, and a hockey game broke out."

Let's not go to a figure skating competition and have a fight break out on Golden Skate!!!!

Enough said.

 

[gsk8]

I understand your frustration Lad, but this thread wasn't started by Joe to start a fight. I don't think most posts are, however, there will always be someone who wants to turn it into one

As for the "in my opinion", I try to use phrase UNLESS I'm stating something I know to be factual.

While the phrase may be overused, and yes, in some cases abused, I personally use it to ensure the reader knows that I'm expressing what I think or feel versus what I know.

 

[Rgirl]

A rule of thumb might be to not put in print anything you wouldn't be willing to say to someone in person.

Show and GSk8,
Are you sure you want certain New Yawkers to apply that rule? You know the kinds of things some of us Bronx Bombers say to someone in person--and that's when we're being polite! Just kidding, of course. But I had to laugh when I thought of all the things I've heard cab drivers yell at other drivers, face to face, or things I've seen in restaurants.

Seriously, it's a good rule. I also especially like the Ghandi quote. "You must be the change you want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi. Thanks for posting that.
Rgirl

 

[heyang]

A rule of thumb might be to not put in print anything you wouldn't be willing to say to someone in person.

It's a good guideline in general, but some people are willing to say anything to anyone.

Also, some people are more sensitive than others about comments, criticisms, opinions, etc.

Is a strong opinion tantamount to bashing?
A strong opinions is not always bashing. A lot depends upon wording and tone. A recently banned poster was certainly bashing since his tone was without doubt hateful and vitrolic.

BTW, I did mention that I respected his opinion, but what I really should have written was that I respect that he has a right to his personal opinion. My point in responding to his post was to point out that I was not trying to tell him what to think and that his opinion was over the top. As Rgirl mentioned, we may need some kind of official policy with regards to bashing.

Is illness an excuse for poor performance?
It's not an excuse, but it is a reason. It's really up to a skater to determine how sick/injured he/she is and if he/she should compete. Caryn Kadavy had to withdraw from the 88 Oly's due to the flu. Randy & Tai had to withdraw from Oly's. Naomi & Tim withdrew from Nationals. On the other hand, Yags (or was that Artur Dimitriev) won World's with food poisoning. Everyone should listen to what his/her body is saying.

For the sake of debate: Tim knew he was having problems with his equipment. Based upon various articles, his practices had gone well. Dick Button said that perhaps Tim's problems were more timing related as opposed to the skates based upon his practices. If Tim had within medal contention after the SP at Nationals, would he still have withdrawn before the LP?

Perhaps it was fate that stepped in to prevent Tim from further damagin his body. My point is that the athlete must accept the consequences of ignoring signals given by the body.

Are assumptions wrong to bring out in a post?
As everyone else has said, it's ok with clearly stated as an assumption.

Also, people shouldn't "assume" that everything they read is factual. Responsibility for assumptions should be taken by the writer and reader.

 

[show 42]

Yep RGirl, I see what you mean. I haven't been to the "Big Apple" in a long time, but it can't be any worse than L.A. or Frisco.

It's a good guideline in general, but some people are willing to say anything to anyone.

This is true, heyang. Forums can sort of be like the "hit and run" tactic. Post a comment and then maybe come back a few hours or a few days later and see who has responded........42

 

[lulu]

Interesing topic!

1. Bashing and constructive criticism are two different things. IMHO things that seperate bashing from criticism, are the tone of the post, the history of the poster, etc.
2. I think it is okay not to like a particular skater's style, and explain why you don't like their style. However, it is important to remember that ALL of these elite skaters have tons of talent. And they have fans whose appreciation of their skating, is just as ligit as your right not to like a skating style.
3. No skater is perfect. (Except for Yuka Sato maybe ) I don't see anything wrong with posting what you think a skater should improve up. What their weaknesses/strengths are. This does not mean that you think what they do is easy, or that you could do the same move yourself.
4. Remember, we get a lot of our information about a skater from messageboards. Some of this information is reliable, others of it is not, due to trolls, misinterpretations, or misunderstandings. Unless we have personal experience with a skater, we should not assume things about their personal character.
5. (sort of off topic): You do not need to bash, or put down another skater in only to prop "your" skater up.

About the use of IMHO: I use this often to distinguish that this is only my opinion. And that I can understand how someone can have the opposite opinion.