Women and the Quad

Blacknight · Sep 1, 2019

Why so much users does not see UR? Probably by the same reason why here at the moment 'doctors counsil' do not discuss what type of traumas will get Alysa jumping quads, and by same reason why fighters for the 'rights of children' do not speak what terror Lipetski gave to Alysa forcing her jump quads.)

TallyT · Sep 1, 2019

jenaj said:
How does that work? The judges are not all from the home country. I don’t think there is a built-judging advantage for home country skaters.

Being the honest and transparently pure soul of rectitude that I am :biggrin:

I have not the faintest idea how they do it, but then I have not the faintest idea how people finagle politically either. I just accept that the influence is there, the history books are crystal clear on that point.

Blacknight said:
Why so much users does not see UR? Probably by the same reason why here at the moment 'doctors counsil' do not discuss what type of traumas will get Alysa jumping quads, and by same reason why fighters for the 'rights of children' do not speak what terror Lipetski gave to Alysa forcing her jump quads.)

Umm.... what??? I'm sorry, but Alysa as the Dickensian waif heroine of a penny dreadful does NOT work if you take one look at her...

Mathman · Sep 1, 2019

Anyway, thanks for joining us, Blacknight. Welcome to the forum. A variety of different views is what keeps us hopping.

TallyT · Sep 1, 2019

And to be both fair and rather :eek:

topic: I should admit that I actually love penny dreadfuls...

Interspectator · Sep 1, 2019

I think as fans it's easy to point fingers and assume that any critique of the judging is biased against a certain skater or even a nationality. (Team Russia VS Team USA, Team Korea VS Team Japan are common rivalries that do vociferously exist) -So, I'm not going to say that the motives of any critique are pure and totally without bias. This is baked into our tribal natures. We cannot always move beyond our biases.

But, and I think this is a point that is getting lost so far in the debate, is the point that all sides are making about the technique of the jumps and how they are getting judged (the identity and nationality of the skater notwithstanding). I feel that quad jumps are being very leniently judged at this time for men and women. The rules state that more than 90 degree underotation should have a deduction. -The deduction has since been reduced. The rule MUST be applied. Not for the sake of any National Team, or for any particular skater. It's in the rule book, so please, score accordingly.

I too have my biases, and my list of favorites include some skaters with horrifying jump technique. When judging sometimes turns a blind eye to their mistakes I am much less vociferous in my outrage than when the skater is one I don't particularly like. However, it's important that someone, somewhere cares that the judging is bad, and points it out. If that person is someone who is biased against my favorite and will nit pick them for their error, so be it. Fans should care about judging and hold the judges accountable. I
do not approve of hate, threats, insults or trolling, but to point out that one disagrees with judging calls, I think, is a good thing. Accusing judges of conspiracy is perhaps less productive without evidence to back it up.

In the most recently discussed 4Lz by Alyssa Liu, watching the replay shows, to me, that the jump was underrotated and should have been dinged in the scores. -A judging error, and one that is much too common these past few seasons.

ec00834 · Sep 1, 2019

Interspectator said:
I think as fans it's easy to point fingers and assume that any critique of the judging is biased against a certain skater or even a nationality. (Team Russia VS Team USA, Team Korea VS Team Japan are common rivalries that do vociferously exist) -So, I'm not going to say that the motives of any critique are pure and totally without bias. This is baked into our tribal natures. We cannot always move beyond our biases.

But, and I think this is a point that is getting lost so far in the debate, is the point that all sides are making about the technique of the jumps and how they are getting judged (the identity and nationality of the skater notwithstanding). I feel that quad jumps are being very leniently judged at this time for men and women. The rules state that more than 90 degree underotation should have a deduction. -The deduction has since been reduced. The rule MUST be applied. Not for the sake of any National Team, or for any particular skater. It's in the rule book, so please, score accordingly.

I too have my biases, and my list of favorites include some skaters with horrifying jump technique. When judging sometimes turns a blind eye to their mistakes I am much less vociferous in my outrage than when the skater is one I don't particularly like. However, it's important that someone, somewhere cares that the judging is bad, and points it out. If that person is someone who is biased against my favorite and will nit pick them for their error, so be it. Fans should care about judging and hold the judges accountable. I
do not approve of hate, threats, insults or trolling, but to point out that one disagrees with judging calls, I think, is a good thing. Accusing judges of conspiracy is perhaps less productive without evidence to back it up.

In the most recently discussed 4Lz by Alyssa Liu, watching the replay shows, to me, that the jump was underrotated and should have been dinged in the scores. -A judging error, and one that is much too common these past few seasons.

It's not just the quads though. Liu got higher PCS than even Kostornaya at her debut which is.....

j00mla · Sep 1, 2019

Blacknight said:
Why so much users does not see UR? Probably by the same reason why here at the moment 'doctors counsil' do not discuss what type of traumas will get Alysa jumping quads, and by same reason why fighters for the 'rights of children' do not speak what terror Lipetski gave to Alysa forcing her jump quads.)

So it's time to start writing about the controversial coaching methods and spoiled childhood. Why they can, and others can't? Everyone should have equal rights in issuing white to black and Vice versa.

Blacknight · Sep 2, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Why do so many users see a UR? Works both ways, boo.

Bet certain folks would love Liu to avoid quads/higher base value/better chance of winning altogether... oops, I meant take care of her health and avoid future injuries. People be shook that non-Russian juniors are bringing the technical firepower... real (ie reportable) talk.

It seems many have deceided that i dont like Alysa Liu). Its not!She is talented and charming! What i dont like its double standarts. I mean quads from Trusova and Tutberidze its bad and from Liu and Lipetsky its wonderful.I never want that Alysa Liu received so much 'compliments" like it was with Trusova!I just wish people would try to be more objective. At the beginnning Sasha too had UR problems with any her quad. I sure Alysa will correct it with jump practice.

Edwin · Sep 2, 2019

Will be interesting to see what the judges in Chelyabinsk give to the skaters performing quads, or at any competition where Russian bias or pressure will be applied (which is all of the remaining Eastern Europe JPG qualifiers) ...

yume · Sep 2, 2019

Blacknight said:
Why so much users does not see UR? Probably by the same reason why here at the moment 'doctors counsil' do not discuss what type of traumas will get Alysa jumping quads, and by same reason why fighters for the 'rights of children' do not speak what terror Lipetski gave to Alysa forcing her jump quads.)

neud · Sep 2, 2019

Edwin said:
Will be interesting to see what the judges in Chelyabinsk give to the skaters performing quads, or at any competition where Russian bias or pressure will be applied (which is all of the remaining Eastern Europe JPG qualifiers) ...

Only Eastern Europe JPG with quads will be Poland (Alysa Liu will be there). Do you suppose "Russian bias" in Poland? It is definitly not the most pro-Russian country in the World.
Only country hosting JGP events in 2019 which is not NATO member (and close ally of the USA) is Russia. Now talk about "Russian bias".

Edwin · Sep 2, 2019

We'll see. Judging is a game of powers, it was, is and always will be. LOC's can be influenced, tech callers and judges can. FFKKR is not above these machinations, feeling their skaters are more 'entitled' than other federations'.

Mishaminion · Sep 2, 2019

I've walked into that ugly side of figure skating haven't I? The one where some people seem to enjoy bashing the achievements of talented young (most of them teenagers) athletes.

Are Lui's 3As and 4Ltz perfect?

No...

But...

She's only 14, and she's probably the only US (or maybe the only one in the world) lady even capable of challenging the seemingly endless Russian wonder girls jump for jump. That in itself is a major achievement.

We should be encouraging her not bashing her.

It sure makes for more exciting competitions.

ec00834 · Sep 2, 2019

Mishaminion said:
I've walked into that ugly side of figure skating haven't I? The one where some people seem to enjoy bashing the achievements of talented young (most of them teenagers) athletes.

Are Lui's 3As and 4Ltz perfect?

No...

But...

She's only 14, and she's probably the only US (or maybe the only one in the world) lady even capable of challenging the seemingly endless Russian wonder girls jump for jump. That in itself is a major achievement.

We should be encouraging her not bashing her.

It sure makes for more exciting competitions.

Of course it's exciting and I'm very happy she landed her quad! But having her URs ignored can potentially affect future results.

Edwin · Sep 2, 2019

ec00834 said:
Of course it's exciting and I'm very happy she landed her quad! But having her URs ignored can potentially affect future results.

In theory, and in theory alone, each and every competition is judged solely by the skating actually shown. Reputation and previous results should be completely eradicated from the callers' and judges' minds. If only this were the case ...

yume · Sep 2, 2019

Mishaminion said:
She's only 14, and she's probably the only US (or maybe the only one in the world) lady even capable of challenging the seemingly endless Russian wonder girls jump for jump. That in itself is a major achievement.

We should be encouraging her not bashing her.

It sure makes for more exciting competitions.

It's that kind of comment that makes me think that most of people who write essays about how bad Russian ladies technique is (and quads bad for health) don't do it because they want fair results but because they are tired to see them win.
I want more diversity too but i call bad what is bad. If we want more fairness in this sport we should start to be fair ourselves in our comments. Not bashing to death one team and encouraging another for the same thing. Not that anyone should be bashed, but pointing flaws isn't bad imo.

Amei · Sep 2, 2019

Mishaminion said:
I've walked into that ugly side of figure skating haven't I? The one where some people seem to enjoy bashing the achievements of talented young (most of them teenagers) athletes.

Are Lui's 3As and 4Ltz perfect?

No...

But...

She's only 14, and she's probably the only US (or maybe the only one in the world) lady even capable of challenging the seemingly endless Russian wonder girls jump for jump. That in itself is a major achievement.

We should be encouraging her not bashing her.

It sure makes for more exciting competitions.

I said that was gonna be in her favor before this season started, the last few years especially the Junior grand prix has pretty much been a showcase for Team Russia as has Junior Worlds - since 2011, 9 World Championships - 27 medals total: 18 medals for Russia, 8 gold, 6 times Russia swept gold and silver, 2 times they swept 1-2-3. Its not in the ISU's best interest for 1 country to be so dominant for so long.

Its not bashing to call out a skater's jumps as having technique issues with bad edges, excessive pre-rotation or under-rotation. And both Shcherbakova and Trusova have gotten some heavy criticism of their quads. I hope her jumps get called not to tear down a teenage athlete but because if she doesn't get called on it means she's unlikely to fix it, but she's at some point going to run into a tech caller who's going to call out her issues that might cost her an important medal.

natsulian · Sep 2, 2019

Amei said:
I said that was gonna be in her favor before this season started, the last few years especially the Junior grand prix has pretty much been a showcase for Team Russia as has Junior Worlds - since 2011, 9 World Championships - 27 medals total: 18 medals for Russia, 8 gold, 6 times Russia swept gold and silver, 2 times they swept 1-2-3. Its not in the ISU's best interest for 1 country to be so dominant for so long.

Its not bashing to call out a skater's jumps as having technique issues with bad edges, excessive pre-rotation or under-rotation. And both Shcherbakova and Trusova have gotten some heavy criticism of their quads. I hope her jumps get called not to tear down a teenage athlete but because if she doesn't get called on it means she's unlikely to fix it, but she's at some point going to run into a tech caller who's going to call out her issues that might cost her an important medal.

I love Alysa and have always been rooting for her ever since people said she would be a one-hit wonder back when she was... in intermediate. Back then, people would bash her whenever she defeated Ting because Ting naturally had better skating skills and jump execution. I remember other coaches would even talk about her behind her back and said she would never get the 2A when she was younger. She's worked SO hard and has come SO far.

However, I agree that the 4Lz should have been called alongside the 3Lz+Eu+3S where she just about squeaked out the 3S. Alysa's the type of person who may not necessarily need to be told to improve something to improve it and that's a GREAT characteristic to have, but her coaches and team definitely need it. I mean, look back at when she was primed for gold and literally under-rotated almost every single jump and came in fourth place after a first place start. Even with the under-rotation calls, she still would have passed the 200 mark AND won with points to spare. I cannot wait to see her improvements in her second event.

I know everyone's waiting for Shin to be the tech controller... all hell's going to break loose when he does.

ec00834 · Sep 2, 2019

natsulian said:
I know everyone's waiting for Shin to be the tech controller... all hell's going to break loose when he does.

What competition is he being the tech controller for?

Sugar Coated · Sep 2, 2019

I really love Alysa. Yes her skating isn't as mature or artistic as most of the Russians and her PCS should reflect this. But she's got her own kind of charisma and connection with the music.

However, I also agree that she likely got a boost in scoring and judging of rotations due to being on home soil. Maybe not intentionally biased, but I do believe there is likely some subconscious pressure on judges to give the benefit of the doubt to the host country. It's just human nature, you don't want to offend your host.

This can go the other way too. I almost felt like at last years worlds judges made a conscious effort to over correct to not appear biased toward Japan and may have slightly underscored the Japanese skaters. But I don't really know enough to say one way or another about scores, I do know a bit about psychology of implicit biases and how they may impact decisions without our awareness.

Women and the Quad

Blacknight

TallyT

Mathman

TallyT

Interspectator

ec00834

j00mla

Made in USSR

Blacknight

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

yume

🍉

neud

Match Penalty

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Mishaminion

ec00834

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

yume

🍉

Amei

natsulian

ec00834

Sugar Coated

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