Women and the Quad

gkelly · Sep 2, 2019

Amei said:
not to tear down a teenage athlete but because if she doesn't get called on it means she's unlikely to fix it,

Easier said than done.

Skaters can only do what they can do.

There's always room for improvement.

But rotating 4 times in the air is cutting edge for what the human body can do using blades on ice. Especially female bodies, and it only gets harder as girls mature into women. Time is not on their side when it comes to jump rotation.

It's not as simple as just knowing what they want to achieve and working hard to achieve it. At the limits of ability, physics and physiology will have more impact than input from technical panels or judges.

Or even from expert jump coaches.

Which isn't to say skaters shouldn't aim to keep improving anywhere they can, to maintain an edge against their top competitors.

But "fixing" an extremely difficult feat to be perfect instead of not-quite-perfect is not something that can be done on demand.

And not a matter of either/or. Continuing to improve doesn't mean that there won't still be room for even further improvement in theory. The best quad anyone actually achieves will likely still fall short of the platonic ideal.

lzxnl · Sep 2, 2019

gkelly said:
Easier said than done.

Skaters can only do what they can do.

There's always room for improvement.

But rotating 4 times in the air is cutting edge for what the human body can do using blades on ice. Especially female bodies, and it only gets harder as girls mature into women. Time is not on their side when it comes to jump rotation.

It's not as simple as just knowing what they want to achieve and working hard to achieve it. At the limits of ability, physics and physiology will have more impact than input from technical panels or judges.

Or even from expert jump coaches.

Which isn't to say skaters shouldn't aim to keep improving anywhere they can, to maintain an edge against their top competitors.

But "fixing" an extremely difficult feat to be perfect instead of not-quite-perfect is not something that can be done on demand.

And not a matter of either/or. Continuing to improve doesn't mean that there won't still be room for even further improvement in theory. The best quad anyone actually achieves will likely still fall short of the platonic ideal.

I feel while imperfect quads are still incredibly difficult, the marking should still reflect their imperfection, which they currently do not.

gkelly · Sep 2, 2019

Fair enough, if everyone is held to the same standard.

Mathman · Sep 3, 2019

Amei said:
I hope her jumps get called not to tear down a teenage athlete but because if she doesn't get called on it means she's unlikely to fix it, but she's at some point going to run into a tech caller who's going to call out her issues that might cost her an important medal.

To me, that last part is exactly the reason why a skater will work on rotation issues even if she gets away with a few. If your jumps are borderline, then you put your fate in the hands of someone else. It is the athlete's goal and responsibility to seize control of her own destiny -- if you hit the elements perfectly then you take the technical panel and the judges out of the equation.

Also, if you habitually under-rotate your jumps, sometimes the under-rotation itself will cause a fall or other serious mishap, compounding the penalty. (At Lake Placid, Alysa severely under-rotated her second triple Axel, fell as a consequence, and lost essentially the whole element.)

So I don't completely agree that getting the benefit of some close calls is necessarily a disincentive to work harder.

Edwin · Sep 3, 2019

Mathman said:
To me, that last part is exactly the reason why a skater will work on rotation issues even if she gets away with a few. If your jumps are borderline, then you put your fate in the hands of someone else. It is the athlete's goal and responsibility to seize control of her own destiny -- if you hit the elements perfectly then you take the technical panel and the judges out of the equation.

Very true. Since Alysa is young and strong she has enough time and opportunity still to improve in her jumps after JGP qualification concludes and before the final and junior world championships.
Who are her tech coaches and what is their reputation, one assumes USFS and Alysa's trainers keep up on all international competition for their star skater. Also these trainers need something of an eye opener themselves sometimes.

princessalica · Sep 3, 2019

There has been lots of talk that she has been working at TCC with BOrser on her jumps, and if that is the case, really is there anyone better in the world or more qualified?

Edwin · Sep 3, 2019

princessalica said:
There has been lots of talk that she has been working at TCC with BOrser on her jumps, and if that is the case, really is there anyone better in the world or more qualified?

Lots of talks, but no official proof? IMO working on jumps at a limited period training stage is hardly beneficial. Skaters this young need to be training their jumps everyday under very careful supervision and control of one and the same trainer who should be fully competent in training jumps, able to handle the pole and harness etc.
Having a second pair of eyes assess your skater is beneficial, but their viewpoints and methods shouldn't be very far apart. You won't risk your skater being pulled apart by different trainers' approaches.

Mathman · Sep 3, 2019

princessalica said:
There has been lots of talk that she has been working at TCC with BOrser on her jumps, and if that is the case, really is there anyone better in the world or more qualified?

Hmmm. Let me think. Let me think. :rofl:

el henry · Sep 3, 2019

Mathman said:
Hmmm. Let me think. Let me think.

Oh please, no encouragement needed :laugh:

And I agree with Princess Alica, there is no one better

Jumping off and not directed to this particular post, Alysa owes the General Skating Public absolutely nothing in terms of information on her training. She just needs to train the best that she can under circumstances that are best for her. Like any skater.

And I have not watched Alysa’s skate. I have not watched Kamila’s skate. But anyone who puts a thumbs down on a YouTube video of a 14 year old skater because they disagree with a Tech Panel needs to Get.A.Life. :roll5:

Ice Dance · Sep 3, 2019

Edwin said:
Lots of talks, but no official proof?

I am just going to point out that officially Alysa Liu outjumped and outscored Orser's/Rafael's protege's TES by 27.02 at the Lake Placid JGP. I know . . . you can say that is because Gogolev switched coaches & is learning new technique. Well, that is exactly what you are advocating for Alysa. And if Gogolev had to do so, that doesn't exactly make a strong argument for sending other young athletes to Orser in order to improve their long term technical prospects; does it? Apparently, the man is busy. Plus, Barkell--who was obviously working with some of Orser's younger athletes--isn't there anymore.

madraykin · Sep 3, 2019

Edwin said:
Lots of talks, but no official proof? IMO working on jumps at a limited period training stage is hardly beneficial. Skaters this young need to be training their jumps everyday under very careful supervision and control of one and the same trainer who should be fully competent in training jumps, able to handle the pole and harness etc.
Having a second pair of eyes assess your skater is beneficial, but their viewpoints and methods shouldn't be very far apart. You won't risk your skater being pulled apart by different trainers' approaches.

She's definitely been there at least once - https://www.instagram.com/p/BxDbpQEHDc6/. I have no idea if it was a one off or an ongoing thing or who exactly she was training with.

oatmella · Sep 3, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I am just going to point out that officially Alysa Liu outjumped and outscored Orser's/Rafael's protege's TES by 27.02 at the Lake Placid JGP. I know . . . you can say that is because Gogolev switched coaches & is learning new technique. Well, that is exactly what you are advocating for Alysa. And if Gogolev had to do so, that doesn't exactly make a strong argument for sending other young athletes to Orser in order to improve their long term technical prospects; does it? Apparently, the man is busy. Plus, Barkell--who was obviously working with some of Orser's younger athletes--isn't there anymore.

Stephen is also dealing with a growth spurt, I don’t think his TES at this competition is a reflection of Orser/Raf.

Alysa has worked with Raf in the past, and for whatever reasons, she/her family and team have chosen to work with Orser.

elegance · Sep 3, 2019

It seems Elizaveta Tuktamysheva is learning quads now:

https://www.tellerreport.com/sports...-the-world-of-figure-skating-.HyWBNgk1SB.html

(The reference appears some distance down the page.)

moriel · Sep 3, 2019

princessalica said:
There has been lots of talk that she has been working at TCC with BOrser on her jumps, and if that is the case, really is there anyone better in the world or more qualified?

Mishin.
Tutberidze, specially for ladies.

Elucidus · Sep 5, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNmaoXVH-j4
Sofia Akatieva FP at Open Moscow Championship
Jumps: 4T(fall), 3A+2T, 3A

P.S.: it seems judges were so excited that forgot to add fall deduction at first (it was fixed later) :biggrin:

You can compare her jumps and whole FP wth Liu's jumps and her FP with similar content and make your own conclusions who is better :rolleye:

I only say that at least Akatieva's jumps are rotated

Arbitrary · Sep 5, 2019

Elucidus said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNmaoXVH-j4
Sofia Akatieva FP at Open Moscow Championship
Jumps: 4T(fall), 3A+2T, 3A

P.S.: it seems judges were so excited that forgot to add fall deduction at first (it was fixed later) [emoji3] You can compare her jumps and whole FP wth Liu's jumps and her FP with similar content and make your own conclusions who is better I only say that at least Akatieva's jumps are rotated

4T is no way equal to 4Lz.

BTW Tarasova suggested Valieva with her 4T gained enough altitude to attempt 5T.

nussnacker · Sep 5, 2019

beautiful 3As from Sonia, executed with speed, height, distance. Such an amazing talent at only 12

Elucidus · Sep 5, 2019

If Akatieva's FP is blocked in youtube - you can watch it here
https://vk.com/video-97272391_456242990

Arbitrary · Sep 5, 2019

Elucidus said:
If Akatieva's FP is blocked in youtube - you can see it here
https://vk.com/video-97272391_456242990

Second axel looks overrotated?

yume · Sep 5, 2019

A shame she's born a few days after the 1st july. She won't even be junior next season.

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