What do Weaver and Poje need to do to come back?

I just want a conversation that is away from the whole "they are only placeholders" thread to something positive or at least more constructive.

The truth is that they have lost favour with the judges, the programs have mixed reviews and their skating ability has been criticised. Even british euosport didnt favour them at all. The most scathing remark being from Nicky Slater "Sorry that you didn't win but the others were amazing" which conversely means that weaver and poje werent amazing to him. Compared to the french, where they have received nothing but praise.

What would be some good decisions for them so they can stand out because unlike the opinion of some, they do have potential to win again. Yes, there are politics in ice dance and its in the French's favour, but I believe that Ice Dance is still a sport and the best team wins and these two could be that best team.

Im trying to come up with what are their strengths and weaknesses and what they can do to optimise the marks??

Also, any music choices you think should suit them? They sometimes ask their fans for suggestions?

One of their biggest advantages is that they have a very commanding presence on the ice. Their height is a huge plus. Another is that they do interpretation of highly emotionally charged pieces very well. They should do something more in the vein of Je Suis Malade.

Next year's PD rhythm is waltz, which should be very good for them. Of course, it also will be a good rhythm for P&C. too.

Passion. That's their strength. I would say Anna Karenina would work for them, but B/S may be back next year. But something along those lines: Big Passion. One of the reasons I didn't think the FS variation worked is that neither of them are particularly 'light' skaters--it's the reason I never really enjoyed their 42nd St as much as C/L's. Maybe something 40s would work, something very film noir. Broody, dark. Passionate. I'll have to take a look at 30s/40s movies. I think that could work very well for them. I was thinking Max Steiner's score for Now Voyager.

I think they need some Russian OTT drama style. Perhaps something along the lines of Bestemyanova/Bukin type of packaging? They need to really contrast with P/C's soft and lyrical style, and a contemporary/modern style by C/B.

Emotionally charged,sexy pieses are obviously their strength, but i like it when they try different things like they did this year. I don't think they should do "je suis malade" like piece at this point, because I'm 100% convinced that they'd be criticized as one notes for it. Russian style drama won't work as well, it's outdated. I would like to see them doing something really dark and moody, not necessarily romantic, just as long as they keep it modern enough. Most important, the choreo has to have the Wow factor. As we seen at the wolrds, if you're a fresh new face with some interesting choreo, it's enough to win, and you don't even need to have the most intricate dance or bother to execute it well.

I think 'The English Patient" Ost will be good for them. I have the music tracks pictured out in my head. I think Andrew and Kaitlyn would be great for it. Romantic, heartfelt, a love journey

Another one I had was Bolero for Violin & Orchestra by Vanessa Mae - powerful piece of music throughout which would work wonders for Kaitlyn in particular.

Have to say Andrew to Me - he needs more choreographic movement in his body - probably to do with his height - but I still see him at times as wooden (they are better!!) but he is just slightly behind Kaitlyn in that area.

To improve though - they may need a new direction, Anjelika and Pasquale have been great with them but they need a fresh approach.

We will see in time but Gabriella and Guillaume to me look like they will be up there with greats! - In particular Guillaume they have that IT! factor that Jayne and Chris had and also Tessa and Scott.

Right from the getgo I didn't like Vivaldi for them because it worked counter to their best asset: their connection, and the theme was too abstract and unemotional. Only diehard W/P fans really loved the program.

They need to get back to what works best for them and not try to prove they can do material that works well for others.

I've been rooting for W&P since Je Suis Malade. I think that's their style and niche. They also have exceptional polish and body lines, a rarity in today's skating, even in ice dancing. This year, it was a disadvantage that they chose traditional programs that didn't distinguish them from the field. Their programs have always been well-done, but they don't have the lush natural ability of P&C or V&M's deep edges or even complex lifts. They were always held back because they weren't considered the most talented. Also, their minor errors and slips are heavily penalized which I think is unfair since other pairs make mistakes too but aren't as heavily penalized. They have been in danger of "looking pretty" but technically they haven't been the best nor are their lifts the most complex and difficult in the field.

I think stylistically they own it, but lesser technical content is what is holding them back. They simply shouldn't do more traditional programs IMO. I don't mean they should go for weird or Russian-styled overwrought dramatic programs either, but go for programs along the lines of Je Suis Malade. I still think they are an underrated team. Their ability to evoke emotion in the audience is incredible.

When I saw P&C's Paso Doble, I was just amazed. I've read many criticisms about P&C's SD and they have almost never performed it clean, but I loved it. They just seemed to gather more speed and depth of edges even as the steps became more complex. This is something W&P can't do; their natural skating talent isn't as strong and it's pretty safe to say no one else is, except Elena Ilinykh and P&C currently. W&P's mostly understated, but emotionally powerful style doesn't always lend to the highest TES. At times, their programs even seem empty. They frequently repeat lifts or make minor variations, but they're nothing new.

I think they should still stick to Anjelika who's like a big sister to them and I think she brought out that special quality out of them.

But they have to calm their nerves. Andrew isn't the strongest skater or dancer and when he gets nervous, the twizzles go out the door. They have to up their technical ante with new, difficult lifts and new concept programs.

Even if they skated to Je Suis Malade in Shanghai, they wouldn't win even a bronze today, just as they didn't in the past. Personally, I thought they were better than P&B but... hey... what do I know. They may get a standing ovation as usual and be a fan favorite, but the technical difficulty isn't there.

So I hope Anjelika and Pascal know what to do. Bring in some consultants in and make do them pretzel lifts in Besti squat positions or something. Je Suis Malade+pretzel, V&M Pink Floyd-level lifts in Besti squats from inside to outside edges should do the trick. The problem is can their nerves and technical ability handle such difficulty? I don't know. They could arguably have been two-time World Champions, but something has been missing.

Now I'm really Je Suis Malade

WeakAnkles said:

Passion. That's their strength. I would say Anna Karenina would work for them, but B/S may be back next year. But something along those lines: Big Passion. One of the reasons I didn't think the FS variation worked is that neither of them are particularly 'light' skaters--it's the reason I never really enjoyed their 42nd St as much as C/L's. Maybe something 40s would work, something very film noir. Broody, dark. Passionate. I'll have to take a look at 30s/40s movies. I think that could work very well for them. I was thinking Max Steiner's score for Now Voyager.

Click to expand...

I like the idea of dark, broody, noirish. Andrew could really sizzle with that. But please, no over-the-top Russian emotive stuff! We've haf enough of that. I'm still dumbfounded at what happened but I hope they're in it for a while.

In addition to the good points made by BlackPack above, to focus on one specific technical issue: W&P have a lot of good qualities but their twizzles seem markedly inferior to the other top teams. Slow, ice coverage not great, always tentative. A couple of months of twizzle boot camp with Igor would probably be useful, but assuming that's not a possibility, it would be great if Krylova could bring in a specialist who could work on that specific issue with them.

They are a very fine team that had a problematic FD all season - even when they were wining competitions with it, it was clear the program was not playing to their strengths. I am not inclined to overreact and think they have been definitively bypassed by other teams. I think better programs will make them competitive for the world title again next year. But they do need to pause and take stock of their position. Their FD performance was tentative in general, and even if P/C were over scored somewhat, both P/C and C/B finished fairly ahead of them. If they had performed this year the way they performed last season with Maria De Buenos, they might have won. They are not out of contention by any means, but they can't take their position for granted. Some of the hard core W/P fans seem to be doing just that - I suspect Kaitlyn and Andrew know better.

LauraV said:

In addition to the good points made by BlackPack above, to focus on one specific technical issue: W&P have a lot of good qualities but their twizzles seem markedly inferior to the other top teams. Slow, ice coverage not great, always tentative. A couple of months of twizzle boot camp with Igor would probably be useful, but assuming that's not a possibility, it would be great if Krylova could bring in a specialist who could work on that specific issue with them.

They are a very fine team that had a problematic FD all season - even when they were wining competitions with it, it was clear the program was not playing to their strengths. I am not inclined to overreact and think they have been definitively bypassed by other teams. I think better programs will make them competitive for the world title again next year. But they do need to pause and take stock of their position. Their FD performance was tentative in general, and even if P/C were over scored somewhat, both P/C and C/B finished fairly ahead of them. If they had performed this year the way they performed last season with Maria De Buenos, they might have won. They are not out of contention by any means, but they can't take their position for granted. Some of the hard core W/P fans seem to be doing just that - I suspect Kaitlyn and Andrew know better.

Click to expand...

I think it is true that fans have taken their recent victories in the GP circuit for granted. But then, the judges really taunted us. They let W&P win all season and then to shaft them at Worlds was very disappointing. I do believe W&P skated their best and have been at the top of their game all season, as much as their abilities would allow. I thought their performance in the GPF was as masterful as Maria de Buenos Aires. If they had tight moments and minor slips in the past 2 years, they definitely paid the price for it - 2 World titles to be precise.

If something must be blamed and not the uneven judging (which it is), it's they aren't as naturally gifted as P&C and their technical content isn't as tough.

not a fan of ice dance at all. also dont know much about ice dance. but W/P's FD is indeed the one that l like the most this reason, the couple of short posts about ice dance, I left on this board is about their FD, and how gorgeous Maddie is, and Maia is a great dancer
I love their blood tainted "Je Suis Malade", their Tango at Sochi really wowed me. And I have watched their "Humanity in Motion" in person, and really love it.
What I hope is that W/P please dont feel discouraged, just continue push and improve, Don't wanna see Kaitlyn cry again. Lots of love here. :
(BTW,I say this as a casual ice dance watcher, that is only watched it with big competitions, not emotionally invested in any ice dance skaters, but I can easily name the above programs of W/P that touched me).

I love their FD from this season! I wasn't really into ice dance before but their performance during GPF was the only one (from all disciplines) that gave me shivers! (note that I went to Barcelona mostly for Yuzuru). I fell in love with them in Barcelona. They have unique chemistry and can create wonderful atmosphere. They could win the title in Shanghai but they lost some levels that hurt their TES. I think they'll be fine next season...no need to panic.

For some reason W/P haven't established a strong identity that clearly distinguishes them from other teams. They're very good at a lot of things, but don't seem to have stand-out elements or qualities that make them instantly identifiable. I think they should stay away from the standard ice-dance styles (trauma-drama, romantic, etc) and go for something unconventional and a little off-center.

I would like to see them build a program around Weaver's personality. I know Poje gets a lot of love from fans, but I always get a kick out of Kaitlyn in the k&c and during the medal ceremonies. She seems to have a big personality and comes across as very warm and natural. She somehow reminds me of Rosalind Russell or Lucille Ball -- one of those bold, brassy, genuine women who used to be described as "a really great broad". It would be interesting to see a female ice dancer portray that kind of woman rather than the more typical drama queen, ingenue, sexpot, or Giselle-going-mad persona.

BlackPack said:

I think it is true that fans have taken their recent victories in the GP circuit for granted. But then, the judges really taunted us. They let W&P win all season and then to shaft them at Worlds was very disappointing. I do believe W&P skated their best and have been at the top of their game all season, as much as their abilities would allow. I thought their performance in the GPF was as masterful as Maria de Buenos Aires. If they had tight moments and minor slips in the past 2 years, they definitely paid the price for it - 2 World titles to be precise.

If something must be blamed and not the uneven judging (which it is), it's they aren't as naturally gifted as P&C and their technical content isn't as tough.

Click to expand...

I wasn't thinking of you BlackPack when I was talking about fans taking W&P's placement for granted - just to be clear. I think you make a lot of good points, and it does seem as if the judges had some kind of change of heart between the GPF and the World Championships. It did seem to me that for whatever reason W&P did not skate their FD quite as crisply or confidently as they did at the GPF, but I concede this is an impression I got while watching the programs on my laptop: I wasn't there and I am not a qualified ice dance judge. Far from it! I've just been a little concerned all season that the FD hasn't had the kind of impact that we know W&P are capable of. I say this despite the fact that I do like the program - I just don't think it - or their execution of it - compares with their best from the past. I LOVED Maria de Buenos......

The bottom line is that I think it's an issue of program selection and execution on the day. I don't think it's a fundamental problem of talent, unlike some others, and I think they should have as good a shot as anyone next season.

I though Kaitlyn and Andrew's technique was fine all season long. It evolved nicely along with the artistic performance. I thought they were passed by a truly new and breath-taking team, Papadakis and Cizeron. W/P were excellent; P/C were spectacular. Although the point counters will tell me that Chock and Bates deserve second, I go back to which performances I want to see again. W/P and p/C win my votes.

So, regarding the thread theme, I agree with the person who said, keep up what you're doing. Listen to lots of music and find a piece of work that speaks to you. I'm hoping it's not another melodrama-type but something out of the box. Save the melodrama for the Olympic year. "Umbrellas of Chebourg"?? Maybe Misha Ge will lend Andrew his "face and words" shirt!!

Its sad that it boils down to natural talent.

There is no one formula to success so Kaitly and Andrew need to find that formula that will work for them.
Kaitlyn and Andrew are artists on ice, but their work is restrained. Next season, their FD needs to go in a completely new direction. Someone said earlier about a program that features Kaitlyn. That might be a good idea.

Modern, more lyrical, something that tells a story. Andrew needs to look like he is into her.
Proper Eye contact with a different expression to what they are doing.

LauraV said:

I wasn't thinking of you BlackPack when I was talking about fans taking W&P's placement for granted - just to be clear. I think you make a lot of good points, and it does seem as if the judges had some kind of change of heart between the GPF and the World Championships. It did seem to me that for whatever reason W&P did not skate their FD quite as crisply or confidently as they did at the GPF, but I concede this is an impression I got while watching the programs on my laptop: I wasn't there and I am not a qualified ice dance judge. Far from it! I've just been a little concerned all season that the FD hasn't had the kind of impact that we know W&P are capable of. I say this despite the fact that I do like the program - I just don't think it - or their execution of it - compares with their best from the past. I LOVED Maria de Buenos......

The bottom line is that I think it's an issue of program selection and execution on the day. I don't think it's a fundamental problem of talent, unlike some others, and I think they should have as good a shot as anyone next season.

Click to expand...

I know you weren't directing your comments at me specifically , but I did think that W&P were set up to win Worlds. I mean, didn't they win everything all season? If that made major mistakes or the quality suddenly declined, I can accept the loss of their second World title more painlessly. But they skated extremely well.

I'm not sure the meteoric rise of P&C is such a good thing. It's almost irrational. I love them and I think Guillaume may just become my favorite male ice dancer of all time, despite being so young and new in the senior ranks. It's like the judges are excusing some of the flaws of their skating. I think they have the sophisticated, understated style of W&P but with the talent of V&M. They have that transcendent quality. But it needs to be said the judges are over-rewarding P&C at 112 points for a FD that still needs more work, complexity, and polish. V&M already had the polish and matching lines at that age, while P&C just don't seem to get it. They have a tall presence and long lines but don't really take advantage of it.

I also want to say that there are some people who say W&P programs are or aren't difficult.

I think they are packed with transitions and very good execution of various spins, footwork, and twizzles, but as another poster mentioned, they aren't masters of any particular element. I think C&B has the same issue.

Their lifts have been redundant and mundane compared to the heyday of V&M and D&W who invented some unbelievable lifts. They added variations to make them seem more difficult, in this field, it hasn't been enough.

Their strength is style and emotional connection with the audience.

While I'm glad P&C's magical, Mahler-esque FD won and I can get behind that, I still think W&P should have won overall because of the maturation of their style, polish, and more complete package. P&C's FD definitely had moments of breathtaking beauty, but there were moves that I thought could have been better. I think W&P's Four Seasons' every move was meticulously planned and as good as it gets for their particular style.

Also, W&P's weakness is that sometimes their skating skills aren't strong enough for some of their difficulty, especially when they're under pressure. Andrew kind of reminds me of Maurizio Margaglio - not the strongest male ice dancers who have been required to execute moves beyond their ability. I do think Andrew is stronger than Maurizio but the comparison applies.

So its ovious that the judges are not giving W/P many favours (while provong concessions to others), they will have to push themseles what they think they are capable of to win. It seems unfair but that is part of the sport of ice dance and all competitors probably understand and accept that sometimes this is the case.

I am lookong forward to this upcoming short dance. I remember W/P's first SD to At Last and Cheek to Cheek. That type pf music is a stronger dance genre for them.