0 points for double jump in SP. It's wrong?

Ares · Jun 2, 2016

Some time ago I analyzed protocols of some senior ladies competition in Poland and I noticed that most of them were attempting triple jumps in SP but most of them did not land them and significant amount of them received < / << call for good measure. Obviously they can't really make such jumps but they do it (aka fall on their butt) one after another in desperate attempt to get any points for their jumps instead of getting invalid element and obligatory null. :slink:

I think it's wrong as it reduces any quality and clean skating that could be there, it also hurt them as falls are painful as well make them risk injury because they are so unprepared. Overall it's detrimental for the sport. I think that ISU must come to their senses and restore old rules with regards to SP and evaluation. It's pathetic as it stands now. What is your take on that matter?

karne · Jun 2, 2016

No. It's right. It's a competition requirement and it's good.

If they are not prepared adequately for Senior competition, that is hardly the ISU's fault.

Ares · Jun 2, 2016

karne said:
No. It's right. It's a competition requirement and it's good.

If they are not prepared adequately for Senior competition, that is hardly the ISU's fault.

So what? Cancel all senior competitions in my country? It's not like the amounts of points for the easiest jumps is all that big.

NaVi · Jun 2, 2016

There should be solo ice dance(or actually steps, spins, spirals) for skaters who can't do a solo triple in the SP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B74IoWfK_Qw

karne · Jun 2, 2016

Ares said:
So what? Cancel all senior competitions in my country? It's not like the amounts of points for the easiest jumps is all that big.

No. They keep trying, and trying, until they get it.

Dialing back the requirements is not going to help matters. What happens when they then compete internationally? They will not make minimum TES for anything.

Ares · Jun 2, 2016

karne said:
No. They keep trying, and trying, until they get it.

Dialing back the requirements is not going to help matters. What happens when they then compete internationally? They will not make minimum TES for anything.

They will not compete internationally as they are too weak. I am afraid that they are not going to improve enough no matter how hard they may train, the fundamentals are poor. I doubt that those girls are complacent with that but there's nothing they can do in that matter. I get that ISU wants to see triple jumps (duh) and that there are requirements / restrictions but that should not be at the cost of actual performance especially in less developed in that sport countries like Poland where right now general level regressed. It discourage some athletes. Those who can't do triples or pop them are disadvantaged enough vs those who can.

QuadThrow · Jun 2, 2016

IMO the rules are wrong.

Allow double jumps in the short and there will be no damage for the sports or anyone.

Mathman · Jun 2, 2016

Are national competitions required to use the ISU scoring system, or can individual skating federations do as they please? I know that the U.S. federation dragged its feet as much as possible for national competitions before switching over completely to the IJS. (They lagged back in eliminating compulsory figures, too.)

4everchan · Jun 2, 2016

i never liked the invalid element deal for jumps... a double jump is worth so little points anyways, they could just reward it... It could also make the difference in the lower tier of the ranking where a lady might have a beautiful double flip, rather than botching a silly 3S just to make the requirement. One might as well not attempt it if you know you are going to make a mess on a jump... there is no deduction compared to falling on a triple

... I don't think it's encouraging the skaters to get better by invalidating attempts... the COP already rewards greatly harder jumps to encourage everyone to up their antes. for instance, men in the SP : many are going for the quad(s) even if the triples are allowed.... but if the ISU made triples invalid ... would if be helping the sport ? All we would see is careers destroyed with injury. Finally, often, a triple is turned into a double as something is not right in the air. For the athletes' safety, I think invalidating elements is not the ideal option....

fallingsk8er · Jun 2, 2016

Its not wrong....its a sport.
The skaters need to keep trying for the triples. They can also gain points from beautiful spins, intricate steps, and performance ability to beat the other skaters in their country.
Also, if the current crop of skaters cant land the triples correctly, the next crop of younger skaters will likely do better in order to become the next champions.

shyne · Jun 2, 2016

It's a rule and it applies to all the skater equally which seems fair to me.
What I consider wrong is when a skater is clearly under-rotated or use the wrong edge but received full credits for it...but that's another story

Sam-Skwantch · Jun 2, 2016

shyne said:
It's a rule and it applies to all the skater equally which seems fair to me.
What I consider wrong is when a skater is clearly under-rotated or use the wrong edge but received full credits for it...but that's another story

Maybe if doubles were scored then the judges wouldn't be so hesitant to downgrade jumps that are UR. Personally I think the no doubles rule in the SP is a bit pointless. If a skater has great presentation then I think I'd like to see them be able to do a double jump be it on purpose or by mistake and still have a chance to compete. I think of Mao in Sochi and think yes...she made an error but should she have been eliminated from medal contention considering her many other amazing attributes. H-E-double hockey sticks NO!

Then again I think edge calls carry far too much weight in terms of how much they punish them. I don't like the idea of these technical flashes to determine an entire event. Says the poster who causes drama with jumpamatron videos. I'm actually one of the most lenient posters on the matter I think.

Let the judges judge and remove power from the TP!!!

VIETgrlTerifa · Jun 2, 2016

I do think right now, things are getting to the point where the TP are really dictating results. However, letting the judges judge is what gave us IJS in the first place.

gkelly · Jun 2, 2016

I think that individual federations could adapt the rules for domestic competitions to allow double jumps in the senior SP (and single axels in the junior SP). I'm not sure of the skating-legality of such discrepancies, but I don't know why the ISU would care what the federation does internally, as long as any skaters who compete internationally know what to expect under ISU rules.

Certainly the ISU novice rules are not binding on what individual federations do domestically in novice competition. And the US, for example, holds collegiate, test track, and adult "senior" or "junior/senior" competitions with different rules than in the standard qualifying competition track. Even within the qualifying track, there are certainly skaters who enter US regionals and make no effort to attempt jumps that they can't do, taking the 0 points for double jumps and single axels in the SP rather than risk injury. It does reduce the ability of the TES to distinguish between good vs. bad/nonexistent double jumps, but the judges could reflect that to some extent in their PCS.

I don't have a problem with requiring triple jumps in the senior short programs. The question is what is the best kind of penalty for failing to meet that requirement: should there be distinctions between attempts to meet it that fail in various ways, or declining even to try?

luenatic · Jun 2, 2016

The rule is fair. It applies to everyone. If none of the skaters in your country can land triple jumps, then where/what is the problem as they will not compete internationally? If a skater cannot land a triple jump at the senior level, it's best not to enter ISU senior level competition. There are always ISI competitions to consider if the skaters want to compete internationally.

What if none of the skaters in your country can land a double axel, should ISU remove the double axel requirement too?

4everchan · Jun 2, 2016

the fact that a rule is fair and applied the same to everyone doesn't make it a good rule... it's like saying, women cannot vote but it's fair since it applies to all women.

I think the athletes are pretty aware that without triple jumps, they won't be competitive. however, I'd prefer someone doubling a triple jump than smashing into the boards.

ISU changes the rules so often... i am thinking this one will be modified as well... like the zayak in SP.

andyjo24 · Jun 2, 2016

I personally love the rule. It forces skaters to rotate their solo jump no matter what the circumstances.

KatGrace1925 · Jun 2, 2016

The rule is fair because it is across the board but it is stupid. It's not like the points awarded from the double would put them above someone who lands all the tripples.

I say give them their points for what elements they do, it's actually annoying to me to watch.

solani · Jun 2, 2016

I think it's a good rule, but I'd modify it. The skaters communicate their planned tech content to the tech panel anyway. If they declare that they do a triple jump they have to do a triple jump (it wouldn't have to be the type of triple they declared, f.e. they declared to do a 3Lz and do a 3S instead - no problem). If they want to do a double jump instead, they must also declare it and they would not be allowed to do a triple instead (zero points for that). I think that would be fair to all skaters.
Because if a Gracie Gold doubles her flip - zero points. It's the SP, the former technical program after all.

Sabrina · Jun 2, 2016

I don't think it is correct. they should give 1-2 points for a double jump and 4-5pt for a triple.

0 points for double jump in SP. It's wrong?

Ares

karne

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Ares

NaVi

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Ares

QuadThrow

Mathman

4everchan

fallingsk8er

shyne

Sam-Skwantch

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VIETgrlTerifa

gkelly

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4everchan

andyjo24

KatGrace1925

solani

Sabrina

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