Shoma Uno Flutz vs Nathan/ Boyang Lutz

hippomoomin · May 11, 2017

As an casual fan I think Uno's under and pre rotation bothers me more than a wrong edge. Jumps with a wrong edge is still a jump of some sort, but the lack of rotation makes a quad vs. triple jump night and day different. We don't even need to compare him with Nathan or Boyang. Judges are not fair to have different standards towards different skaters. Technical marks should be judged by a robot or computer, at least the amount of rotation in the air. It is more unfair when the biased judging potentially affects who is on the podium or even who is the gold medalist. I wouldn't care if it affects who is 18th or who is 19th.

Tonichelle · May 11, 2017

ejnsofi said:
Well Shoma's terrible flutz is neither new nor any kind of secret. You don't even need a slow motion or repeat to see the change of edge.

It's why I don't now why he wants to try 4Lz. I know that answer is always TES but I don't think we need quad flutzes

But essentially a quad flutz is an over rotated triple... so if he goes for the quad and flutzes at least it's no longer a *triple* flutz, right?

deedee1 · May 11, 2017

Off topic completely but it's soooooo nice to see Toni's posts lately. :party2:

A warm welcome back from me with hugs and kisses, Toni!!! We've missed you so much. :yay: I've never imagined I'd post here

but I have to I thought.

On topic.

vlaurend said:
Bobbob, there are jumps that are cheated by pre-rotation and there are jumps that are not, based on the takeoff edge and position of the skater's body. This is why only certain jumps (almost exclusively the toe loop) get pre-rotation calls. The toe loop is a jump that can be cheated by pre-rotation because the skater can pivot on the left toe and take off forward instead of backward, which changes the jump from a triple toe loop to a double axel (or from a single toe loop to a waltz jump). However, the other jump takeoffs don't really allow the skater to pivot from backward to forwardjust before takeoff, simply due to the physics. On a flip jump, for example, the skater's body is still backward on takeoff even if the takeoff edge curves more than it should and the skater pivots on the takeoff toe. That's because it's a left BACKWARD inside pivot, not a right FORWARD inside pivot (which is what a cheated toe loop takeoff is). Also, trying to pre-rotate a flip jump is generally going to result in a botched jump because momentum will be lost and air position will be compromised.

Above vlaurend's explanation makes sense to me. Very relieved to know Shoma at least doesn't pre-rotate his Flip/Lutz, can't pre-rotate it actually. Thanks!

And strange a bit no one seems to respond or disagree with him/her, meaning we all agree on this, right?

Why the heat these days? :noshake:

Tonichelle · May 11, 2017

deedee1 said:
Off topic completely but it's soooooo nice to see Toni's posts lately. A warm welcome back from me with hugs and kisses, Toni!!! We've missed you so much. :yay: I've never imagined I'd post here but I have to I thought.

Awwww thank you! We'll see how long this return lasts LOL Figured I should come back at least while planning my trip to US Nationals. First time in 10 years I'm going to see live skating! :rock:

Tahuu · May 11, 2017

deedee1 said:
On topic.

Above vlaurend's explanation makes sense to me. Very relieved to know Shoma at least doesn't pre-rotate his Flip/Lutz, can't pre-rotate it actually. Thanks! And strange a bit no one seems to respond or disagree with him/her, meaning we all agree on this, right? Why the heat these days? :noshake:

No so fast. Shoma prerotates both his 4F and 4Lo half a turn before his toe pick leaves the ice. Here you can see in the slow motion Shoma picked backward but only left the ice when he had already fully turned forward in his 4F. Not only he prerotated Shoma actually lowered his blade to the ice after the toe pick and turned the flip into an edge jump.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BT8yr-hj03V/?taken-by=troinoitechno

For comparison, here's Nathan's slow mo 4F.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BT8yXNdDd2y/?taken-by=troinoitechno

hippomoomin · May 11, 2017

Thanks for the videos. Nathan's is textbook clean and Shoma's has obvious pre-rotation. People have been hinting Japanese power affecting judging and I am not sure how much it is true. But the pre-rotation king and queen happen to be Japanese and both have been on the Worlds podium. The placement may be a completely different story if the skater is from another nation.

Tahuu said:
No so fast. Shoma prerotates both his 4F and 4Lo half a turn before his toe pick leaves the ice. Here you can see in the slow motion Shoma picked backward but only left the ice when he had already fully turned forward in his 4F. Not only he prerotated Shoma actually lowered his blade to the ice after the toe pick and turned the flip into an edge jump.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BT8yr-hj03V/?taken-by=troinoitechno

For comparison, here's Nathan's slow mo 4F.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BT8yXNdDd2y/?taken-by=troinoitechno

chloepoco · May 11, 2017

hippomoomin said:
Thanks for the videos. Nathan's is textbook clean and Shoma's has obvious pre-rotation. People have been hinting Japanese power affecting judging and I am not sure how much it is true. But the pre-rotation king and queen happen to be Japanese and both have been on the Worlds podium. The placement may be a completely different story if the skater is from another nation.

Oh here we go again--Japanese skater bashing this time.

Leonardo · May 11, 2017

chloepoco said:
Oh here we go again--Japanese skater bashing this time.

Exactly. I'm glad Asada retired because we don't see this kind of bashing every day anymore. And there are ALWAYS excuses like "it's just a technicall thing", "just my opinion", etc. But everybody knows that Uno flutzes, Satoko has some UR jumps and all. Same opinion, everyone knows, everyday = bashing. There were posters that used to post only to bash Asada on any kind of thread. They are probably depressed now :laugh:

Arriba627 · May 11, 2017

:yawn:

Tahuu · May 12, 2017

hippomoomin said:
Thanks for the videos. Nathan's is textbook clean and Shoma's has obvious pre-rotation. People have been hinting Japanese power affecting judging and I am not sure how much it is true. But the pre-rotation king and queen happen to be Japanese and both have been on the Worlds podium. The placement may be a completely different story if the skater is from another nation.

You may be right. Shoma wasn't called for numerous pre-rotations, incorrect take-offs, and questionable landings. On several occasions, he used a newly invented two-foot landing technique where with a deep knee bend, his free leg touched down and glided on the ice with the side of his boot, not his blade, to avoid falling and leave no sign of two-foot tracing on the ice. I don't know how he could get away with all those cheats.

sinnerspinner · Jun 4, 2017

Neenah16 said:
The video may not be made for discussion, but for someone like me who is still learning about figure skating it helps much to see what everyone is talking about. There are a lot of technical conversations that happen in this forum that go over my head because I can't really visualise it. This is the reason why I am always trying to get people to discuss these videos so that I can associate what is said with what I can see. Unfortunately, these kind of videos are not made unless the maker has something they are passionate about they want to convey (which we may agree or disagree with).

So when life gives you lemons, make lemonade

Me, too! These types of videos help me A LOT. I have watched figure skating off and on, but i am new to learning about technique. I think flutzes were making it harder to distinguish jumps. Fyi, i visualize Gracie Golds or Yuna Kims lutzes when i think of a true lutz.

In response to others, i dont think criticizes someones technique is bashing. There are skaters i like who i could critique (no transitions, no graceful enough, not flexible enough, etc).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 4, 2017

Tahuu said:
You may be right. Shoma wasn't called for numerous pre-rotations, incorrect take-offs, and questionable landings. On several occasions, he used a newly invented two-foot landing technique where with a deep knee bend, his free leg touched down and glided on the ice with the side of his boot, not his blade, to avoid falling and leave no sign of two-foot tracing on the ice. I don't know how he could get away with all those cheats.

Uh, if he *actually* did this (newsflash: he doesn't) he would be caught on instant replays that scrutinize landings. It would be silly of him to deliberately learn a technique that could get deducted. This isn't the 90's - there are HD cameras for tech specialists to call him on that... not to mention hordes of haters who are all too enthusiastic to post up-close/slow-mo videos scrutinizing him, lest he continue to threaten their favourites.

Shoma Uno Flutz vs Nathan/ Boyang Lutz

hippomoomin

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

deedee1

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Tahuu

hippomoomin

chloepoco

Leonardo

Arriba627

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Tahuu

sinnerspinner

CanadianSkaterGuy

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