Structure of Zagitova's Free Skate

Tolstoj · Nov 15, 2017

Thanks to the wonderful work of Jackie Wong we have his analysis on NHK17 and a recap on some of the current rules.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOhksirXcAAhXtt.jpg

or

(Page 78)
http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...igure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

Few interesting notes:

1) As someone already mentioned (moriel i believe) in the Cup of China thread, the term "well-balanced" in IJS means the inclusion of elements and NOT the distribution. So a fully backloaded FS like Alina's Don Quixote IS actually a balanced program.

2) Falls on elements don't directly affect PCS. That's why in Men's skating we see programs with 2-3 falls still receiving very high components.

3) There are guidelines on how a judge should or should not give a 10, but those aren't rules. So a 10 on the components for a program with a fall (Evgenia Medvedeva's FS at the Rostelecom Cup) is NOT a mistake.

4) Crossovers are "movements" which are part of Transitions: so skaters like Gabby Daleman who has lots of crossovers on her programs, those are still considered as transitions. Granted they aren't difficult and transitions should still be "varied" (so you can't have all crossovers as transitions) and "purposeful".

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/930106084257337349

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
There are guidelines on how a judge should or should not give a 10, but those aren't rules. So a 10 on the components for a program with a fall (Evgenia Medvedeva's FS at the Rostelecom Cup) is NOT a mistake.

Whether or not it's a "mistake," it's wrong. A 10 implies perfection on that aspect of a program. If you give a 10 to a performance with a fall, what would you give the same performance without a fall? What would prevent a judge from giving a 10 to a skate with 2, 3, or even 4 falls? A program is more than the elements that make it up, but a failed element does affect the quality of the entire performance.

Tolstoj · Nov 15, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
Whether or not it's a "mistake," it's wrong. A 10 implies perfection on that aspect of a program. If you give a 10 to a performance with a fall, what would you give the same performance without a fall? What would prevent a judge from giving a 10 to a skate with 2, 3, or even 4 falls? A program is more than the elements that make it up, but a failed element does affect the quality of the entire performance.

But as wrote on the point 2, falls don't affect directly PCS.

My interpretation of the rule would be: a fall can affect the components depending on how quickly you react and get back into the performance, or most importantly if you fall during transitions or steps sequence where you are supposed to sell the program, that definitely affects the performance.

So it depends from case to case.

PS: personally i wouldn't give a 10 to a program with a fall anyway, but what Meagan Duhamel wrote on twitter is not true.

Anni234 · Nov 15, 2017

Lily flowers · Nov 15, 2017

:clapper:

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
My interpretation of the rule would be: a fall can affect the components depending on how quickly you react and get back into the performance, or most importantly if you fall during transitions or steps sequence where you are supposed to sell the program, that definitely affects the performance.

So it depends from case to case.

If you had two programs skated by the same skater, one with a fall with a quick recovery, and one that's perfectly clean, the perfectly clean program will be the better performance. So the perfect program should garner higher marks, and the program with a major error should garner lower marks. I don't get outraged a lot, but people should be outraged by scores of 10 for programs with major errors.

Spirals for Miles · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
Thanks to the wonderful work of Jackie Wong we have his analysis on NHK17 and a recap on some of the current rules.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOhksirXcAAhXtt.jpg

Few interesting notes:

1) As someone already mentioned (moriel i believe) in the Cup of China thread, the term "well-balanced" in IJS means the inclusion of elements and NOT the distribution. So a fully backloaded FS like Alina's Don Quixote IS actually a balanced program.

2) Falls on elements don't directly affect PCS. That's why in Men's skating we see programs with 2-3 falls still receiving very high components.

3) There are guidelines on how a judge should or should not give a 10, but those aren't rules. So a 10 on the components for a program with a fall (Evgenia Medvedeva's FS at the Rostelecom Cup) is NOT a mistake.

4) Crossovers are "movements" which are part of Transitions: so skaters like Daleman who has lots of crossovers on her programs, those are still considered as transitions. Granted they aren't difficult and transitions should still be "varied" (so you can't have all crossovers as transitions) and "purposeful".

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/930106084257337349

Yes!! Thank you!!!

Although I'm not sure why crossovers still count as transitions. But at least they're valued less than others.

ReasonOFF · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
But as wrote on the point 2, falls don't affect directly PCS.

drivingmissdaisy said:
If you had two programs skated by the same skater, one with a fall with a quick recovery, and one that's perfectly clean, the perfectly clean program will be the better performance. So the perfect program should garner higher marks, and the program with a major error should garner lower marks. I don't get outraged a lot, but people should be outraged by scores of 10 for programs with major errors.

you guys are really funny because how it touches zagitova? when did she fall in the free program? i guess this is an explanation why osmond will get crazy overscored pcs for her usual free program with falls or/and popping jumping elements.

so you just brought another evidence why she will get undeserved scores and actually france is the second home for canadians, so there are also will be inflation

pearly · Nov 15, 2017

A fall will affect SS. Thank you for your post, although I am not sure many people who are always around to shout "inflated PCS" will read or take notice.

I would just add one thing I've been repeating over and over - unless you are in the arena (and know the handbook and guidelines well), you cannot with a 100% certainty say whether a skater is under or overscored for program components.

JustMe · Nov 15, 2017

#fakepost

Tolstoj · Nov 15, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
If you had two programs skated by the same skater, one with a fall with a quick recovery, and one that's perfectly clean, the perfectly clean program will be the better performance. So the perfect program should garner higher marks, and the program with a major error should garner lower marks. I don't get outraged a lot, but people should be outraged by scores of 10 for programs with major errors.

According to the rules, assuming both are perfect programs, both might receive some 10s.

But i do agree that it is weird seeing a 10 for a program with a fall, it was just to clarify because someone after Rostelecom Cup complained about the judging arguing that a 10 for a FS with a fall goes against the rules, and it's actually not true.

Keep in mind this because the Olympics are almost here, i wouldn't be surprised to see 10s for programs with falls there, especially in the Men's event.

ReasonOFF said:
you guys are really funny because how it touches zagitova? when did she fall in the free program? i guess this is an explanation why osmond will get crazy overscored pcs for her usual free program with falls or/and popping jumping elements.

so you just brought another evidence why she will get undeserved scores and actually france is the second home for canadians, so there are also will be inflation

We are referring to Medvedeva's FS at the Rostelecom Cup on that point.

JustMe said:
#fakepost

???

leafygreens · Nov 15, 2017

If the rule says falls can have 10's in the program, then Carolina should be getting straight 10's across the board, above any other skater.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 15, 2017

ReasonOFF said:
you guys are really funny because how it touches zagitova? when did she fall in the free program? i guess this is an explanation why osmond will get crazy overscored pcs for her usual free program with falls or/and popping jumping elements.

This actually doesn't relate to Alina (whom I love). Evgenia received 10s for a LP with a fall.

madison · Nov 15, 2017

Zagi is so cuteeee... she deserves every PCS in the world :love:

Grin · Nov 15, 2017

Oh, another good thread for updating my ignore list )
:popcorn:

SubRosa · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
3) There are guidelines on how a judge should or should not give a 10, but those aren't rules.

So the Code of Points is the equivalent of the Pirates' Code? (I suspected as much.)

https://youtu.be/b6kgS_AwuH0?t=11

Miss Ice · Nov 15, 2017

OS said:
Zigitova is the biggest overscored PCS skater Junior skater since Evgenia Medvedeva in her debut.

Whether you like Zagitova or not, her PCS jumped by almost 10 points from junior to senior year even though her choreography actually became more watered down from the previous season. She is the backup incase Medvedeva has multiple falls in the Olympics games, basically the Adelina to the Yulia in Sochi. She will be kept within a short margin of all the other ladies who skate clean, so that in the FS there is room for hyperinflated PCS and unexplained GOEs. This sport is disgusting, but I will link to this post when that happens because I am almost 100% sure it will. :slink:

Mathman · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
1) As someone already mentioned (moriel i believe) in the Cup of China thread, the term "well-balanced" in IJS means the inclusion of elements and NOT the distribution. So a fully backloaded FS like Alina's Don Quixote IS actually a balanced program.

Yes, when the ISU speaks of the well-balanced program rules they mean that your program is supposed to include the twelve scored elements that are listed on the score sheet. Every skater does this. There is no controversy about this use of the term.

However, the discussions among skating experts, commentators and fans are rather about the composition of the program, and use the word "balance" in the sense in which it is usually employed in discourse about esthetics. It means that the program has a pleasing symmetry. Someone else may feel that asymmetry can have its own esthetic -- well, that's why there is discussion.

Anyway, go Alina!

fireovertheice · Nov 15, 2017

Thank you for the post with these observations by Wong.
But please, can someone explain to me how evaluate "high quality" in crossovers (since the "difficulty" is out of discussion, as also Wong says in some answers on twitter, and variety is granted only if crossovers are alternate with difficult steps, movements and so forth...)? Just for the speed that you can gain from them or...what?
And how these "high quality crossovers" à la Chen - so says Wong - can count in scoring TR?

draqq · Nov 15, 2017

fireovertheice said:
Thank you for the post with these observations by Wong.
But please, can someone explain to me how evaluate "high quality" in crossovers (since the "difficulty" is out of discussion, as also Wong says in some answers on twitter, and variety is granted only if crossovers are alternate with difficult steps, movements and so forth...)? Just for the speed that you can gain from them or...what?
And how these "high quality crossovers" à la Chen - so says Wong - can count in scoring TR?

Mainly, how much speed a skater gets with them, which indicates mastery of that transition. For instance, look at Patrick Chan's crossovers - he really cranks those edges so that he only needs one or two crossovers before he's flying across the ice.

Structure of Zagitova's Free Skate

Tolstoj

drivingmissdaisy

Tolstoj

Anni234

Ina Bauer

Lily flowers

drivingmissdaisy

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

ReasonOFF

pearly

JustMe

Tolstoj

leafygreens

drivingmissdaisy

madison

Grin

SubRosa

I love Lussi

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

Mathman

fireovertheice

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

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