2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

Fluture said:

This is NOT just about Alina. Have you been in this thread at all this year? Basically every Russian lady was doomed as soon as she put even one foot wrong. Alina, Zhenya, Masha, Liza... all those you just mentioned and a lot more.

And about Alina: Well, there is a reasonable explanation why people think she might retire. It’s something that separates her from the other skaters. She has won every title. And once you‘ve done that, you may need to find a different motivation. Or look at other things life has to offer. Alina will make that decision for herself and will not care about anything we say here anyway. And rightly so. If she wants to continue that‘s great, she‘s young after all, she can do a lot more. But I wouldn‘t blame her if she started to see different things now, other than figure skating. Training and competing at a top level is hard. We don’t know what Alina wants, maybe she doesn‘t know it herself yet. The season has just ended. Let‘s give her some time to think. Anyway, Alina and every other skater for that matter, will only be done once they say so.

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To be honest, those so called "reasonable explanations" are just pure camouflage. There is nothing like "winning every title makes retirement reasonable per se". Many athletes in many disciplines won "everything" and continued in sport. Alina is 16 and she is not Tara, she is not Oksana, who had objective reasons to retire, she is Alina. The only thing that matters here is Alina's health and alina's personal wishes, not a single of those so called "reasonable explanations". After all those cries about "longevity" and questions "why is life expectancy of russian stars so low" those sudden "reasonable explanations" sound completely false.

And this IS about Alina, particularly and purely. Alina is the one with whom people started to discuss this question after every failure (if we can call a failure all those "only silvers"). Not a single one of those I mentioned just as an example, was ever discussed this way so frequently if they were discussed at all. And I made that example only as a comparison, definitely not because - how you and vandevska may try to insinuate - I would wish to start such discussion. After all, none of you two can honestly blame me for doing anything like that previously. I'm definitely not the one who is making such suggestions about anyone.

So, again, "why people still discuss it particularly with Alina". Those suggestions (sorry, "reasonable explanations") are significantly more often made by people with some of the other skaters in their avatar than those whose avatar is either neutral or Alina's. In fact, I don't remember I would have seen here a single comment from someone with Alina's picture as his avatar to give such advice and "favor" to other skaters. I reserve my right to not believe in good intentions of such people, which is the same I've been saying during the whole season.

kwanatic said:

She can do whatever she wants.

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This! Alina is free from any burden to prove herself or to add another of the most coveted medals to her collection. She has got them all, done all that is possible in an athlete's career.

If she decides to battle it out with the younger Awesome Aces from Khrustalniy for another season, I am all supportive, Alina is the Ace of Aces herself, the full hand of suits, the Triple Crowned Queen of figure skating.
If she continues figure skating at a lower level for a couple of years for the fun of it, I am all supportive.
If she wants to enter university and fulfil an academic wish, I am all supportive.
If she wants to fulfil other dreams, like opening her own Japanese restaurant, become a fashion icon, I am all supportive.
If she wants to have a normal teenager's life, finds a boyfriend and starts a serious relationship while exploring life in general, I am all supportive.

I will support her in anything she decides, even retiring at the height of her career.

She has many options, many choices, she is free!

Now, there have been female figure skaters turned millionaires before they were 20 in the US, right? I doubt this is possible in Russia for Alina by herself, to become really independent financially and am wary of her falling into the 'manager's trap' and gaining little herself.

So whatever she chooses, I hope she chooses wisely and is guided by people that really matter to her and have her best interests in mind.
The Alina I know being a little shy and reserved, but clever and not prone to jumping left and right wildly, will probably keep her plans close to herself until she is ready.

PS: speaking of Triple Crowned Queens, i.e. continental, world and Olympic champion, could Alina be one of the, if not THE, youngest ever?
The lovely Liliya Podkopayeva (UKR) was 17 (almost 18 though) when she won the All Around in Women's Artistic Gymnastics 1996 Olympic Games after becoming 1995 World Champion and 1996 European Champion.
Liliya was a remarkable, ground breaking gymnast unmatched in her era: https://www.thoughtco.com/gymnast-lilia-podkopayeva-1714594

vitamintea said:

I mean no one told Michelle Kwan to step down after winning US Nationals so many years in a row. Do you see Japanese fans telling Hanyu to step down because he's won everything and there's nothing to do? No, because that suggestion would be rightfully laughed at.

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That's because everyone was waiting for Michelle to win the gold medal at the Olympics, which obviously never happened. And there have definitely been fans that want Hanyu to retire, in fact I think there's been a rise especially after this year's worlds.

I do understand what you mean but I think it's just the fact that what Alina is doing is kind of unprecedented. Yes there is Katarina, but you can't compare eras that closely, especially when she had the advantage of figures.

vitamintea said:

Everywhere else that skaters are told to retire, it's because they're struggling and people want to see the old guard cleared out for the next generation. I know this hurts the feelings of fans who like the older skaters--and I have my sentimental favorites too, I'll be sad that Pogo probably won't compete ever again--but I recognize this is a sport and we want to see the top competing. I hope that Maria, Elena, etc. won't get GP assignments or world spots IF they continue to skate like they have. If they have a resurgence like Liza did then I would definitely say they deserve whatever assignments they get and they should keep competing!

The difference is that everyone is telling Alina to retire despite the fact she's doing well, still winning competitions, and still very young. Isn't that logic just... backwards from how we usually approach things? And isn't it inane to suggest skaters should retire once they win everything? I mean no one told Michelle Kwan to step down after winning US Nationals so many years in a row. Do you see Japanese fans telling Hanyu to step down because he's won everything and there's nothing to do? No, because that suggestion would be rightfully laughed at.

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I agree, as much as I like my old ladies, that they shouldn't get GP assignments over other people(except, you know the comeback skater rule, which in my opinion is fair since it's something that you can use once). I do think, that maybe we will see some of these girls at nationals anyways, since russian cup might be a good opportunity, since most juniors right now are too young to qualify etc.

Fluture said:

And about Alina: Well, there is a reasonable explanation why people think she might retire. It’s something that separates her from the other skaters. She has won every title. And once you‘ve done that, you may need to find a different motivation.

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And this is not the reason - why not continue to win if you can? It's fame and money. The only reason is her health. There were too many bits and pieces about it. I hope it's nothing serious. But it might be as well.

Alina loves to skate. She has finally been getting accustomed to the image of an icon or a diva. I mean she looked like one in the Japanese tweet of her arrival to Tokyo airport. She is at the peak of her power - she beat Zhenya last season, she beat Rika this season...but we don't know the price. I just hope that it is not too high.

vitamintea said:

Everywhere else that skaters are told to retire, it's because they're struggling and people want to see the old guard cleared out for the next generation. I know this hurts the feelings of fans who like the older skaters--and I have my sentimental favorites too, I'll be sad that Pogo probably won't compete ever again--but I recognize this is a sport and we want to see the top competing. I hope that Maria, Elena, etc. won't get GP assignments or world spots IF they continue to skate like they have. If they have a resurgence like Liza did then I would definitely say they deserve whatever assignments they get and they should keep competing!

The difference is that everyone is telling Alina to retire despite the fact she's doing well, still winning competitions, and still very young. Isn't that logic just... backwards from how we usually approach things? And isn't it inane to suggest skaters should retire once they win everything? I mean no one told Michelle Kwan to step down after winning US Nationals so many years in a row. Do you see Japanese fans telling Hanyu to step down because he's won everything and there's nothing to do? No, because that suggestion would be rightfully laughed at.

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Well, I was just trying to explain why some people might wonder what Alina‘s going to do next. And I think it‘s a justified question and I‘m sure Alina will spend some time on considering her options. In the end, she can do whatever she wants to do and I would be very happy if she continued to skate competitively because I feel like we haven‘t seen her full potential yet - especially performance wise. But I wouldn‘t blame her if she called it a day now. There are other things to life than elite sport and if Alina wanted to enjoy shows, doing commercials, coaching or focusing on her education more now, I would totally understand it. I‘m not saying skaters should retire once they‘ve won everything, on the contrary. Examples like Hanyu are what makes this sport so special. But logically, I can see that these people are human and not everyone can find the motivation to be under constant stress and pressure, especially if they have already achieved everything there is to achieve. If Alina can: Great! All the support and admiration to her! If not, also good. It‘s her life and her decision. For now, she has said she doesn‘t intend to stop and I will take her word for it. If anything should change, she will tell us herself.

flanker said:

To be honest, those so called "reasonable explanations" are just pure camouflage. There is nothing like "winning every title makes retirement reasonable per se". Many athletes in many disciplines won "everything" and continued in sport. Alina is 16 and she is not Tara, she is not Oksana, who had objective reasons to retire, she is Alina. The only thing that matters here is Alina's health and alina's personal wishes, not a single of those so called "reasonable explanations". After all those cries about "longevity" and questions "why is life expectancy of russian stars so low" those sudden "reasonable explanations" sound completely false.

And this IS about Alina, particularly and purely. Alina is the one with whom people started to discuss this question after every failure (if we can call a failure all those "only silvers"). Not a single one of those I mentioned just as an example, was ever discussed this way so frequently if they were discussed at all. And I made that example only as a comparison, definitely not because - how you and vandevska may try to insinuate - I would wish to start such discussion. After all, none of you two can honestly blame me for doing anything like that previously. I'm definitely not the one who is making such suggestions about anyone.

So, again, "why people still discuss it particularly with Alina". Those suggestions (sorry, "reasonable explanations") are significantly more often made by people with some of the other skaters in their avatar than those whose avatar is either neutral or Alina's. In fact, I don't remember I would have seen here a single comment from someone with Alina's picture as his avatar to give such advice and "favor" to other skaters. I reserve my right to not believe in good intentions of such people, which is the same I've been saying during the whole season.

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I‘m sorry but I cannot take this seriously at this point. If you want to make everything about poor Alina and the people who hate on her (evil guys with other skaters in their avatars), by any means, do it. I have clearly stated that I will respect every decision Alina makes. What‘s so hard to understand there?

I never said I want her to retire, or that I in any way think she should retire. I merely explained reasons for people wondering that are, yes, indeed completely logical.

“There is nothing like "winning every title makes retirement reasonable per se".“

If that’s what you got from my post, you might have to read it again because that’s not what I said.

I was talking about motivation which plays a very obvious role in elite level competition. I don‘t think any of us can even imagine what it takes to compete at such a high level. You have to motivate yourself all the time. And indeed, titles and medals are a factor there. In Alina‘s case, she will have to find new goals. The off-season has just started and I‘m sure she will think about it. If Alina can do it, can motivate herself now that she‘s won everything and just wants to skate, again, great. If not, well she doesn‘t have to, does she? There‘s much more life has to offer and she will do whatever’s best for her in the end. I don‘t see what should be illogical about this other than the fact that some people want to see malicious intentions everywhere.

Anyway, I‘ll say it another time: Alina is not done until she says so. For now we have her word that she‘s staying and that‘s it. If anything should change, we will hear it from her coaches or herself. But at the moment that‘s not the case.

[email protected] said:

And this is not the reason - why not continue to win if you can? It's fame and money. The only reason is her health. There were too many bits and pieces about it. I hope it's nothing serious. But it might be as well.

Alina loves to skate. She has finally been getting accustomed to the image of an icon or a diva. I mean she looked like one in the Japanese tweet of her arrival to Tokyo airport. She is at the peak of her power - she beat Zhenya last season, she beat Rika this season...but we don't know the price. I just hope that it is not too high.

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If you want to know my personal opinion about it: I think Alina will go on for a few more seasons. Now that the 3A turn senior, the pressure isn‘t entirely on her shoulders. I hope to see her a bit more relaxed and experimenting. She might have won everything but I feel like she has a lot more to give, especially artistically. Her last performance in the SP at Worlds could be a teaser for what‘s to come. An Alina that‘s fully and emotionally engaged in her programs - that feels the music and allows herself to show it.

About what you said: It‘s not only physical health. Competing in high level sport is a lot of pressure and some might not want to deal with it if they have won everything and have the option of doing what they love (skating!) in a more relaxed environment (e.g. shows). I‘m not saying Alina is like this because I simply do not know. Anyway, I‘ve repeated myself quite a lot here and I don‘t intend to continue this discussion. Alina will do what she wants to do and that‘s it. Basically all there‘s to say about it.

flanker said:

My wish we would understand each other more next time was probably futile.

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Ah yeah, sorry I can't understand you justifying the retirement talk for others except Alina

Wasn't there thousands of pages of longevity outcry and age rising. So now the trend is the opposite. It seems wrong propositions were made to ISU, the right is to limit to maximum two senior seasons per skater.

But weren't some fans saying Eteri couldnt coach a senior skater pass their puberty and now they're saying Alina should step down for the pre puberty juniors. A bit contradictory.

Well i dont want alina to retire but as you all said what matters is what she wants and if she wants to step down in the near future than it is ok too as well as continuing, and we do not know what really happens Inside of crystal ice rink. I read underneath eteri post about her year one other post which source seems to be someone from crystal, and from what I read there if this is really true and I do not know or have any real fact that it is true but also no fact that it is a lie that alina has been crying a lot this season, that people from rusfed where more than often at the rink this past season and that they talked alina into not quitting world's. And mabye that is why eteri saidatworldsthat they were thinking of withdrawing the weekend before world. But as I said before don't know how much is the truth or if this supposed insiders really an insider

If, maybe, but, though, however, perhaps, probably, although, yet, besides, ...

Vandevska said:

Ah yeah, sorry I can't understand you justifying the retirement talk for others except Alina

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Well, that's called distortion. When I say I wonder why it is Alina and not other skaters are not talked in such context, that doesn't mean that I want the others to be talked in such context.

Azikin said:

I think there should be two threads indeed - but one for seniors and one for juniors..

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Exactly! I've been wanting that for many months. But the administrators won't do it. I just don't think the Russian ladies thread should have information on 10 to 12 year old girls. That's where a separate Junior's thread would make the most sense.

Scott512 said:

Exactly! I've been wanting that for many months. But the administrators won't do it. I just don't think the Russian ladies thread should have information on 10 to 12 year old girls. That's where a separate Junior's thread would make the most sense.

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Children on skates are the same sportsmen as older and even stronger and more interesting than older ones. I propose then to divide into sports skating for women of Russia and drama skating around women of Russia.(with age restriction 15+ for the second thread)

Fluture said:

I‘m sorry but I cannot take this seriously at this point. If you want to make everything about poor Alina and the people who hate on her (evil guys with other skaters in their avatars), by any means, do it. I have clearly stated that I will respect every decision Alina makes. What‘s so hard to understand there?

I never said I want her to retire, or that I in any way think she should retire. I merely explained reasons for people wondering that are, yes, indeed completely logical.

“There is nothing like "winning every title makes retirement reasonable per se".“

If that’s what you got from my post, you might have to read it again because that’s not what I said.

I was talking about motivation which plays a very obvious role in elite level competition. I don‘t think any of us can even imagine what it takes to compete at such a high level. You have to motivate yourself all the time. And indeed, titles and medals are a factor there. In Alina‘s case, she will have to find new goals. The off-season has just started and I‘m sure she will think about it. If Alina can do it, can motivate herself now that she‘s won everything and just wants to skate, again, great. If not, well she doesn‘t have to, does she? There‘s much more life has to offer and she will do whatever’s best for her in the end. I don‘t see what should be illogical about this other than the fact that some people want to see malicious intentions everywhere.

Anyway, I‘ll say it another time: Alina is not done until she says so. For now we have her word that she‘s staying and that‘s it. If anything should change, we will hear it from her coaches or herself. But at the moment that‘s not the case.

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You are defending yourself against points I've not written, not against what I've written. This current discussion started after several people publicly and also here made a statement about Alina retiring. To any such speculations, I made general statement where I've said what I think of anyone who is making such proposals. To make this story short, this is how can those proclamations can be summarized:

Alina wins "only" silver. Some people: "She is done, she won't win anything anymore, she should retire."

Alina outclasses the whole starting field in WC: The same some people: "She's won everything already, she should retire."

Also, I've expressed that I think that people who make such statements are not fans of Alina and don't make such statements becuase they like her but because they probably would prefer if she would not be competeing. Yes, that's not what a fan would do, I'm highly convinced about that. And that Alina's fans don't make such statements about other skaters? Yes, we don't do that (at least I'm not aware of that at all). I feel completely free to say this.

To which you rushed in with this defence of YOURSELF that you did not make such things. I've never said you did. I don't think anyone who didn't make such statement should feel bad just because I've reminded that we were forced to read proposals about Alina's retirement for months, on GS, outside GS, made by people in Russia and internationally as well, and we are forced to read it again

I was hoping that with Alina's winning people can find some better things to do, but no, we are facing new wave of "good advices". If my tone sounds fed up, it is because I'm fed up. And if the problem is that I respond to it generally, well, then the thing is that everytime I was trying to be specific in the past, it was not welcomed well, to say it as moderately as I can.

Edit: With this I'm really leaving this thread for good. I was hoping the last thing here to discuss would be WTT, but no, it is again someone's retirement. This time my farewelll is without flowers, unfortunately.

flanker said:

I was hoping the last thing here to discuss would be WTT, but no, it is again someone's retirement. This time my farewelll is without flowers, unfortunately.

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I will take the pass and say good luck to Liza and Sofia! Unfortunately, I would not be able to watch SP later today. By the way, do we know Liza's FS plan?

Alina can do whatever she feels is right for her. My thinking about retirement is that she may want to have the opportunity to rest and heal her body while also having some time to enjoy being a teenager and doing normal teenage things. This would be a nice time to do it, she has nothing left to prove and Russia doesn't "need" her in the sense that their are plenty of other strong representatives. She could move back to live with her family, go to school, etc. if that's what she wanted. Just because she has the potential to remain competitive doesn't mean that that is necessarily what is best for her right now physically and emotionally.

Honestly, I think she may have the athleticism to outlast many of the other young skaters if she can take care of her body and mind. People may not see this, but I have always believed she has the potential for 2022 even with all the upcoming talent. Alina just seems very tired. And rightfully so. It may be harder to find motivation to train in the way that is needed to remain at the top now that she has won everything and doesn't need to prove herself. Especially with so many other younger skaters chomping at the bit and hungry for glory.

Finley said:

whole post

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you pay too much attention to trolls, I just add them to ignore list because they are incurable

Finley said:

You have no idea how strong Alina is. You have no idea what she can take. She moved away from her home, away from her parents, broke her arm and her leg pretty much at the same time, and still had the class and grace to bring Eteri flowers after being 'fired' for not living up to expectations. That one gesture changed her destiny. A great example of making your own luck when you do the right thing instead of the easy thing.

It's a good thing she has the character that she has because it turns out she needed it. To deal with what she dealt with at 15, winning OG, and then having that treated like an unfortunate accident by people who should have known better. To achieve what she achieved and have it dismissed and minimized by those same people without ever uttering a single complaint shows her maturity. It is your personal opinion she "is not so strong as Evgenia". It's my opinion that she is stronger than Evgenia both as a skater and a person. The difference between you and me is that I will not state my opinion as a fact.

If you want to see Alina strong and happy competing go back and watch Worlds. Both programs. It's fun to see her skate Carmen (the free skate that she specifically asked for) almost perfectly. Or you could watch Nebelhorn. Both programs. It's fun watching her come out strong in her season debut and break scoring records.

Just curious did Evgenia's face bother you at all? I mean when she was struggling all season long and getting beat by other skaters and looking out of sorts. Did you get tired of hearing about her injuries when she brought them up at Worlds. Do you like angry face better than puke face?

I hope you get your wish and we see happy Alina too! Standing on podiums and proud of her medals whatever the color.

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Amazing post. You were on fire.

Alina should skate competitively as long as she feels like she could compete for metals. I don't understand why some people want her to step aside or some other skaters even if they're in their 20s it's like what the heck else are they going to do? Hoping her knees hold up the next few years so that she can skate at or near her best to continue to thrill us all.

The most amazing thing is how close Alina came to leaving her coach and that would have changed everything. But Eteri gave her a second chance and the rest is history. Amazing.