Sasha's fans and nonfans

Mathman · Feb 22, 2005

chuckm said:
Sasha doesn't need more difficulty that will cause her to fall or pop jumps, she just needs to execute the jumps she is able to do well.

I think this is quite true, both of Sasha and everyone else. I really think there has been too much emphasis on trying to squeeze an extra tenth of a point out of the CoP by putting in an extra little curlicue.

Same with Michelle. If she just skates her program she will be hard to beat. But if she skates with one eye on the list of CoP point values for each element, she will very likely give a flat and uninspired performance like at Nationals. I think the person will win who simply goes out there and skates her program. (Go Fumie!)

Mathman

mzheng · Feb 22, 2005

Hikaru said:
I'm sorry but, where did you read that? was it Sasha herself in an interview, or is it a rumor, like "I read somewhere that someone else read somewhere else that someone said..."? I ask this because it is strange that Sasha, knowing how CoP works, would put all the jumps on one side of the program and not take advantage of the bonus points for doing jumps on the second half. If you have a link to the article where you read this, please share it so that we can read it as well. Thanks!

I read this too. But with so many info floating around the web, I can hardly find the link to articel. It was in one of post National interview, IIRC, she said it was very important for her to land all the jumps (I think she is right). So she is not going to move her jumps back into the program. But nevertherless she is going to change her spins and other elements. And according to Nick (the same interview?) they already changed about couple of weeks after Nationals.

Mathman · Feb 22, 2005

hockeyfan228 said:
I think Q-round is the critical one for her this year, and that she must take advantage of the "easier" Q round, since Arakawa, Kwan, and Slutskaya will be in the other. Not because of the points, but because of the ranking and grouping.

Can you please explain that a little more, Hockeyfan? In the past, the ranking in the qualifying round was all-important in terms of ranking and grouping for the Short Program. In fact, in her journal Sasha blamed her fourth-place finish in 2002 on the fact that Fumie was in the easier qualifying group, which gave her a higher ranking than Sasha.

Are they still ranked by group, even under the CoP? What if Arakawa, Slutskaya and Kwan get the most points, in that order, followed by Sasha, winning her qualifying group. Is the ranking Arakawa, Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen, or is it Arakawa/Cohen, Slutskaya/someone, Kwan/someone (leaving Michelle tied for 5th/6th, as she was last year and never caught up.)

And if it is only the points that carry over, will it matter if Cohen is "ranked" second or fourth?

Mathman

mzheng · Feb 22, 2005

I guess what hockeyfan mean by 'the ranking and grouping' is that judges may **'subcounciously'** still use the old 'ranking and grouping' method in NJS. Since two QR are judged by diff group of judges, so being in a relative weak group and compare to other skaters in the same group, Sasha could've get better GOE and PCS scores. In a tougher group judges may scrutinized more of each skater. It could be a wrong guess from me, but I think it make sense though.

And by the way Canadian National judged, still top 15 or 16 from each QR advanced to the SP, shouldn't affect Cohen though, it only may affect the skaters ranked after 10 in each group. If the different measure used to advanced the skaters. The top 16 in each group VS. top 32 highest points advance to the SP.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2005

The top 15 from each group go into the SP, but after the culling, the skaters are ranked by points. So it's possible that skater #2 from Group B actually ranks higher than skater #1 from Group A. Only 25% of the QR points are carried over, so a 10-point difference in marks becomes a 2.5 point difference. Bombing the QR is not as devastating under CoP. A skater could be ranked 10th but only be 3 points behind.

hockeyfan228 · Feb 22, 2005

However, the quali scores drive what groups the skaters are in for the SP, and since PCS seem to be used for ranking, it's not easy for a skater to jump groups for the LP with a great skate; moving up seems to depend on a skater dropping groups due to a bad program (Sandhu and Sokolova in Dortmund) or withdrawal (Klimkin in Dortmund).

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 22, 2005

Chuckum - That's true with the system whether it is 6.0 or CoP. I don't like the two tier systems in the QR. When Kwan was 4th after the Quali one could have seen her as 8th and not 4th. Had she not pulled herself up in the SP, one could have seen her in the next to last group of six. (Think Fumie.) As Hockeyfan says, Sokolova was sitting fairly pretty after the QR but went down the drain later. That can still happen in CoP. In the CoP, 3 points are enough points to make up but you want to be sure you are in the last group of six to skate. Psychologically, that group is large enough to battle it out for the podium. Unless the scores for the next group are close enough, and one or two of top 6 falters, I think maybe one skater might move up to a 5th or 6th finish as did Johnny Weir and Michael Weiss.

I know, I know, the CoP can bring a down skater up. But can we really bank on that in terms of the QR?

I still think the QR is an important scoring factor and I still think the 2 tier system is not totally fair but that's what we have.

Joe

Courtneysk8s · Feb 22, 2005

Hikaru said:
I'm sorry but, where did you read that? was it Sasha herself in an interview, or is it a rumor, like "I read somewhere that someone else read somewhere else that someone said..."? I ask this because it is strange that Sasha, knowing how CoP works, would put all the jumps on one side of the program and not take advantage of the bonus points for doing jumps on the second half. If you have a link to the article where you read this, please share it so that we can read it as well. Thanks!

I remember her saying this, but I can't quite put my fingers on where I read it! I was very surprised when I read it because I can't believe she would just throw away the bonus points, but hey if she thinks that fron't loading her program like that will keep her on her feet then I guess its worth a try.

Margaux · Feb 23, 2005

yelyoh said:
Some of what I've heard about Sasha's alleged agressiveness and lack of awareness of other skaters on the ice has been a turn-off. That and her brief association with Bush and beef.

In regard to her skating, she has a lot of talent but sometimes seems to be trying too hard to be the best rather than skate her best. And I could do without the Beaver Cleaver. Really girl, I'm not your gynecologist.

Generally, I do like to watch her skate and think if she has a Salt Lake Sarah moment she could wind up with the Oly Gold nestling between her......well, never mind about that.

Thanks for making me laugh! :rofl:

euterpe · Feb 23, 2005

Sasha's programs under John Nicks back in the 2001-2002 season were typically front-loaded, but she still made mistakes towards the end of the program. "Robin Lake" was VERY front-loaded, with all the jumps up front and all the spins at the end, but Sasha made mistakes on her very first jump and her last jump, just the same.

With Sasha, it's almost like stuttering. A stutterer has certain sounds, like the plosives "t", "d","b" and "p", that they believe starts the stuttering. They are so terrified of those consonants that they avoid them whenever possible. Of course, the fear only makes the stuttering worse.

ChiSk8Fan · Feb 23, 2005

euterpe said:
A stutterer has certain sounds, like the plosives "t", "d","b" and "p", that they believe starts the stuttering. They are so terrified of those consonants that they avoid them whenever possible. Of course, the fear only makes the stuttering worse.

So, a stutterer would avoid ordering tacos, doughnuts, burgers and pizza and possibly be someone with a healthier diet :rofl:

Great analogy re: Sasha's long programs. Another analogy would be that she is like a great Ferrari sports car with carborator trouble (the stutters) who burns her fuel too fast, rapidly and brilliantly, only to flame out when all is said and done (brilliant and impressive, but not a winner).

Is she kind of like those cars which only race drag races and often blow up in the process quite spectacularly?

Is Sasha like a drag racer? Challenge the others to a race? Push as hard as you can past your limit and crash land? Only be brilliant and fast for a short time? Only be happy if you win the drag race and challenge no matter how fast you go? I'd say she is more like this than an artist in her approach to her long programs and competition.

She is more likely to flame out and crash in a "race" to finish her long program without mistakes than deliver a unique, artistically innovative musical interpretation of unique music for skating. Sasha is not an artist on the ice, in my opinion, she is a competitor first, and sadly, competing at this Olympic level in the long program is her weakness. This may seem harsh, but it isn't, it is merely pragmatic. Sasha is a competitor first and foremost, not an originator or artist with her skating.

R.D. · Feb 23, 2005

She is more likely to flame out and crash in a "race" to finish her long program without mistakes than deliver a unique, artistically innovative musical interpretation of unique music for skating. Sasha is not an artist on the ice, in my opinion, she is a competitor first, and sadly, competing at this Olympic level in the long program is her weakness. This may seem harsh, but it isn't, it is merely pragmatic. Sasha is a competitor first and foremost, not an originator or artist with her skating.

ITA, actually.

Ogre Mage · Feb 24, 2005

Random thoughts on Sasha

Sometimes when you watch a performance, the whole seems greater than the sum of its parts. I often feel this way when I watch a Kwan performance. Unfortunately for Sasha, the reverse seems true. The individual elements are great, but the overall performance isn't that good, due to tight, nervous skating and mistakes. When I look at Sasha's specific elements (except for her flutz) I am awed by her quality. But her programs too often feel like a collection of very beautiful highlights that when taken as a whole, for some reason just doesn't have the impact that it should. Why is that? I believe that it is in part because while Cohen is extremely physically gifted, she doesn't have her mental game together in the way one must to be a legend.

chuckm · Feb 24, 2005

I think it is true that the whole IS less than the sum of its parts with Sasha's FS performances. I think it's because she thinks her way through the progam, element by element, always fearful of making a mistake---she isn't concentrating on performing, but on winning. Then, once she makes a mistake, she seems to lose interest in the rest of the performance and it becomes mechanical.

Her SPs are much better, maybe because she is confident of getting through a SP without making a mistake, so she's more into her own performance.

Sasha's fans and nonfans

Mathman

mzheng

Mathman

mzheng

chuckm

hockeyfan228

Joesitz (RIP)

Courtneysk8s

Match Penalty

Margaux

euterpe

ChiSk8Fan

R.D.

Ogre Mage

chuckm

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