Ladies Short Program

Hope They ALL Do Well

I hope they all do well. When all is said and done, the judges usually get it right. I love Michelle, she has made skating an art form, but I also think Sasha is a spectacular skater. I hope Jenny does well too-she is overdue for a great competition.

After Watching Them

They all did well, including Kimmie Meissner, who did a great job. I didn't like the music Sasha or Michelle skated to, to be honest. I also thought Sasha deserved her marks despite the hand down on the lutz. Her spin combination was to die for. Michelle's program was skated very well. Her jumps are better (improved) overall and her spins were faster. But the program itself, apart from the circular footwork section, and of course her spiral, was more of the same. I think Sasha's program is a better program. I also think that Michelle's SP will not beat Irina's typically wonderful SP at Worlds, under the COP, without a stronger jump combination. I do like Bolero alot and think that it is a stronger program than her SP. But I also like Sasha's Nutcracker, and if skated perfectly (if only we could ever see that), gives Michelle, Irina and Shizuka a real run for their money. Jenny Kirk's performance was delightful.

Hikaru said:

I don't agree with millie's comments on Michelle and CoP, however, I think it is just as inappropriate from her as it is from you, Kuchana, to turn that comment into a "you-bashed-on-Michelle-so-I-bash-Sasha-now". Why don't just leave Cohen out of this? Let's all cool down, ok

Peace! :agree:

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How was I bashing Sasha? I was merely pointing out how the poster was spouting all that trash talk because of how well Michelle skated and that Sasha didn't skate her usual perfect short program. So yes I was a little miffed to say the least but hey things do get a littel too heated. I probably shouldn't have laughed when Piel made that remark so my apologies for that.

If it makes you feel any better, I do hope Sasha does skate a clean program well all of the ladies and of course I want Michelle to win! lol

Anyways it was a good competition. I'm glad to see most of the ladies skated good programs. Here's to the long! *trying to stay out of heated discussions*

Joesitz said:

Easy Mille - You are not on one of those boards that thrive on catty remarks constantly just to show how smart you are with all sorts of quips.
Joe

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Well said and right on, Joe. And I include myself in reminding Rgirl of these very sentiments.

LUCKY YOU (and Eliza, too) being in Portland to see Nats live! Having seen one in '84, t'aint nothin' like it. Have fun -- and take care of that jet lag. New York to Portland, yikes! They say drinking lots of water helps. I hope the airline didn't make things worse by showing continuous Pauly Shore movies on the flight. :banging:

BTW, Sasha did do a combo. When she touched her hand down, she was doing the 3flutz part of her 3flutz/2toe combo, which she did complete despite the touch down. I don't know what the deduction is for a touch down, but from the first angle they showed on TV, it looked to me as if her hand didn't actually touch the ice. But on the replay from another angle, it was very clear that her fingers touched the ice. I don't know, but maybe the judge who gave her the 5.8 for technical didn't see the hand go all the way to the ice. Or maybe that judge is biased, bought off, a fool, or, as is possible, has a reasonable rational relative to the placements he gave the other skaters. I do think 2nd was the right placement for Cohen.

Anyway, as Mathman rightly reminds us, the scores themselves really don't matter, as much as it seems like they should. It's the ordinals that determine placement and the ordinals only. For example, the judge that gave Michelle a 5.6 and Sasha a 5.4 for technical was described as "screwy" or "weird." But as long as 5.6 was the highest score he gave for technical, which it obviously was since Michelle had first place ordinals across the board, then it doesn't matter what her scores were, even though the scores are supposed to reflect very poor, poor, good, very good, outstanding, and ideal skating in terms of technical or presentation. In the end, the right skaters, Michelle and Sasha, got the correct placements, 1st and 2nd, respectively, from the "screwy" judge.

Had that same judge given Michelle a 5.6 and, just as an example, given Katy Taylor a 5.9, with the respective ordinals being Michelle 4 and Katy 1, then THAT would be reason to get upset -- very!

From the skaters I saw, I agreed with most of the placements, more or less. Though personally, I would have put Taylor lower than 6th and Hughes higher than 10th, but not being there live, it's hard to say. Also, as has been discussed many times before, under the OBO system, ie, 6.0, skate order is a factor. Emily Hughes skated early. Had she skated later, perhaps she would have been higher in the standings. And not to get too much into the COP, even in 10th after the SP, under the COP, a skater can still medal and even win.

As for how these SPs (and LPs) will fare under the COP for those who didn't compete in the GP series, I have no idea. But I do know that I wish the USFSA would have voted to use the COP for this year's Nats. I understand that the USFSA had to vote before the ISU announced it would be using the COP for this year's Worlds, so the USFSA got stuck with bad timing. Still, the writing was on the wall and knowing the COP was being phased in, it would have seemed the wiser choice for the skaters to get as much experience with the COP as possible. But what's done is done.

BTW, does anyone know if Russia, Japan, France, or any other countries used or plan to use the COP for their Nationals?

Finally, thanks from me too, Eliza, for your terrific and unbiased report on what happened both during the programs and the warm-up. I hope you don't have any aspirations for being a journalist. With fairness and accuracy like that, you'd never make it. (Sigh! Probably more true than we realize.) But we love it here!

Rgirl

Rgirl I'm not going to quote you since your quote is so freaking long! But well said and thanks to you and everyone else for bringing this discussion back to where it's supposed to be. I'll try my best as well

As far as I know of, I think the countries you mentioned have already implemented the COP system but I think there are a few that haven't....for one Hungary I think...I have no idea why though.

Anyways here's to a good competition

Rgirl said:

I hope the airline didn't make things worse by showing continuous Pauly Shore movies on the flight. :banging:

Rgirl

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I think that's now a violation of Federal aviation laws, up there with bringing steak knives, grenades, or Uzis onto an airplane. At least I hope it is.....

Hi all, just to confirm, Sasha did do a combination- she touched the ice ever so briefly. Looked like one finger. She was right in front of us. I wish I had a picture of her face, you could see the ... I don't know what. But also the determination to pull of the combo!

It's gotten hard to talk about Sasha and Michelle without being called a Sashcist or a Kwanatic, but I'll give it a go. The placements were correct. I think Sasha has the better program- more difficulty and innovation, better spins, footwork (by a touch), interpretation. Michelle executed better. Spirals I call a draw. I love Sasha's innovation. Michelle has improved her spiral!! Her leg is higher I swear, and she really took the speed into it. One of her spins seemed slow, but the other, the Y spin was very good.

Michelle's short programs are starting to blur together for me. Too much of the same moves (tho after so many years, maybe that's inevitable!). My BIG BEEF is that she hasn't done an attitude-leg layback in years. I don't see how you can do a program without the classic layback position. I think it's as important as any triple jump.

Looking forward to the long programs!

sk8fanconvert said:

Michelle's short programs are starting to blur together for me. Too much of the same moves (tho after so many years, maybe that's inevitable!). My BIG BEEF is that she hasn't done an attitude-leg layback in years. I don't see how you can do a program without the classic layback position. I think it's as important as any triple jump.

Looking forward to the long programs!

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I couldn't say it any better..well I tried in another post

Yana

sk8fanconvert said:

My BIG BEEF is that she hasn't done an attitude-leg layback in years. I don't see how you can do a program without the classic layback position. I think it's as important as any triple jump.

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If the rules don't dictate she do a classic layback then what's the problem? Michelle does not have the flexibility in her back that Sasha and some of the others do. Also, she has some back problems that are aggravated doing a layback. While I love the classic layback and the attitude position, I would rather Kwan do her modified version than risk injury. The judges seem to like her programs just fine without it. IMO it is very smart of her to modify the spin to her abilities. I hate it when skaters do elements like the catch foot spins when they can't fully extend the leg.

I just find the attitude layback that significant. It is the classic, the standard. It's like someone leaving out a sit spin or a camel. Yes, obviously the judges don't have a problem with it; does that mean I can't? :sheesh:

To me a layback is the attitude position. Everything else is a variation on a layback. It's like leaving out your axel. Just my opinion.

I'd rather see a variation layback done well as opposed to a standard layback done -- well, not so well. However, IMO, NOTHING beats the classic layback done beautifully.

Michelle's Short Program and Cop

Michelle's short program, as it is set up now, will place her behind a clean Irina and/or a clean Shizuka and Sasha. I certainly hope they change the combination to a lutz/loop or a triple/triple for Worlds under CoP. She may need it. The SP seems somewhat empty to me apart from the circular footwork.

........as for the "attitude" leg in a layback spin........Michelle has shown that she can do it the traditional way (ho-hum...been there, done that). Much better to be unique and stand out with a signature spin as is the layback she now does ........42.

IMO, Beatrisa Liang should have been placed third. She has good technique, and much more fire in her skating than Kimmie or even Jenny. Her program is just wonderful! May be the best coreography in all the ladies' short program. Her spins are fast and have nice positions.

kyla2 said:

Michelle's short program, as it is set up now, will place her behind a clean Irina and/or a clean Shizuka and Sasha. I certainly hope they change the combination to a lutz/loop or a triple/triple for Worlds under CoP. She may need it. The SP seems somewhat empty to me apart from the circular footwork.

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I don't think Michelle has enough speed on the landing of the triple lutz to do a triple toe for the combination. She always looks/skates cautious going into the triple lutz. However, double loop will be good. Irina is no longer doing a 3lutz-2loop combination.

Vash

Kuchana said:

How was I bashing Sasha? I was merely pointing out how the poster was spouting all that trash talk because of how well Michelle skated and that Sasha didn't skate her usual perfect short program. So yes I was a little miffed to say the least but hey things do get a littel too heated. I probably shouldn't have laughed when Piel made that remark so my apologies for that.

If it makes you feel any better, I do hope Sasha does skate a clean program well all of the ladies and of course I want Michelle to win! lol

Anyways it was a good competition. I'm glad to see most of the ladies skated good programs. Here's to the long! *trying to stay out of heated discussions*

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I pointed "bashing" because I felt that you had made the assumption that the person who wrote that must've be a fan of Sasha to say those things about Michelle, when he or she could very well be a fan of Jenny Kirk for all we know, and it also bothered me that it was all turned out on how bad Sasha skated, when what I have heard from reviews is that she just had a minor mistake (not much to say that she skated bad, but I won't make opinions on that until I watch the event in 2 weeks...darn cable!). If I offended you in some way, I truly apologize for that, and like you, I wish all skaters good luck, but of course, my favorite is Sasha, I can’t hide that

Not sure, but I think MK mentioned that her programs will be different World's to accommodate COP. I think it's just strategy for her to save the 'hard' stuff for World's where she will need it and, at the same time, preserver her body. Also, holding some stuff in reserve might help her compettitve drive - she does need to give herself an extra push at Worlds since she seems to be have peaked during the last couple of years at Nationals.

I don't think this is unique to Michelle, Tanith also mentioned that they plan to up the ante at World's.

kyla2 said:

Michelle's short program, as it is set up now, will place her behind a clean Irina and/or a clean Shizuka and Sasha. I certainly hope they change the combination to a lutz/loop or a triple/triple for Worlds under CoP. She may need it. The SP seems somewhat empty to me apart from the circular footwork.

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I thought Sasha's program was actually the empty one. Michelle was continously doing something with her arms.

Michelle's Program

Lavender, take another look at both programs again if you have time. Sasha's actually has more going on as far as footwork. Michelle does have alot of arm movements, but for the first time in my life, I really thought some of them were purposeless. However, some of her arm movements were also lovely, like when she did her layback at the end. It is a credit to her artistry, that she makes this program look as good as it does IMO. I think she needs to beef up this SP program to be competitive at Worlds with CLEAN skates by Irina, Shizuka, and Sasha. I stress clean skates, because if they don't skate clean, then Michelle has the edge. She is the most consistent skater out there, bar none. My worry is that she won't place in the top three after the SP at Worlds. Which will make winning the title problematic. I agree that she came out of the lutz slow, but she has the ability to do a triple lutz-double loop, which we have seen this year. Having said that, I really like Bolero alot, especially since she has made some changes to it. Sasha's Nutcracker is great also. It's a very pretty program. But I think Irina is really peaking right now, and has improved considerably with her Biellman spiral and faster and more centered spins. So this is going to be a tough Worlds for the US Ladies.

Have to throw in my 2 cents, I have had so little chance to get here. Please, I just want one absolute killer performance from Sasha. She has got to be one of the most gifted skaters ever. Yes, even more so than Michelle. BTW, I love Michelle but her traditional layback always sucked. That's why she changed it. Nationals is always a lovefest for Michelle. I hope they treat her better at worlds this year.