2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP | Page 9 | Golden Skate

2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

I watched them at Finlandia & SC (is it ? or SA) and JPO, that's the impression I had. Never wanted to get bored again by those two programs.
I'm obviously talking outside elements. Choreo steps is not a transition.
Takahashi LP is just a Morozov crap although he can save some bits thanks to his charisma (I've been convinced on this point by someone else, didn't want to admit it at first, compare to last year LP it's just dreadfull). Think again about the first minute because there's nothing but jumps. That's Morozov's way to make his pupils to land their contend.
Hanyu just has a random background music for his elements. I don't remember a single move outside jumps, spins and steps sequences.
Maybe I should rewatch them but I have better things to do. These skaters are so talented it's painfull to see what they have to come up with because of silly rules.
 
machin said:
I watched them at Finlandia & SC (is it ? or SA) and JPO, that's the impression I had. Never wanted to get bored again by those two programs.
I'm obviously talking outside elements. Choreo steps is not a transition.
Takahashi LP is just a Morozov crap although he can save some bits thanks to his charisma (I've been convinced on this point by someone else, didn't want to admit it at first, compare to last year LP it's just dreadfull). Think again about the first minute because there's nothing but jumps. That's Morozov's way to make his pupils to land their contend.
Hanyu just has a random background music for his elements. I don't remember a single move outside jumps, spins and steps sequences.
Maybe I should rewatch them but I have better things to do. These skaters are so talented it's painfull to see what they have to come up with because of silly rules.
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Look--just to be clear here, I don't like either of Takahashi's or Hanyu's LPs this year (though I do like Hanyu's SP). But just because the choreography isn't great doesn't mean they have "almost no transitions". For example, for Hanyu--I don't even have to re-watch his programs, but off the top of my head, I can remember he has a lot of difficult transitions like a spread eagle into 4S, ina bauer into 3F, his trademark difficult 3A entry with that counter turn, etc. Those are definitely transitions, and just because you don't remember them doesn't mean they don't exist.
 
I've always sort of liked Brian Joubert but I made a personal observation with this competition. I watched the uTube of his exhibition program to The Gladiator and it struck me. Brian's been skating to dark music like Inception and The Matrix, etc. I've never found his programs to be very musical or lyrical and I could never get into them. I appreciated his athleticism and Lord knows he's easy on the eyes, but ...... However, he really interpreted The Gladiator. He seemed into the music and everything just flowed. Dont' know if anyone would agree with me but I feel like his presentation and "oneness" with his program would be greatly enhanced with different music. What would he do to Les Miz or one of the more beautifully melodic classical pieces?
 
If Alexei Yagudin didn't skate it, then Brian doesn't know how to emote to it. :disapp:
 
Nobody in elite skating has "no transitions", certainly not Dai and Hanyu. Not Joubert either. There are of course differences between skaters in the quantity and difficulty of transitions. I will remind people once again that TR is one of five components, and is not more important than the others in any way, shape or form. I get that's it's easier to quantify TR and it feels more objective, but I'm really tired of complaints about people's PCS because they have "no transitions". I did not see "performance of many transitions" listed as a bullet point for P&E, IN, SS, and, apparently contrary to popular belief, CH. Enough already.

noskates said:
I've always sort of liked Brian Joubert but I made a personal observation with this competition. I watched the uTube of his exhibition program to The Gladiator and it struck me. Brian's been skating to dark music like Inception and The Matrix, etc. I've never found his programs to be very musical or lyrical and I could never get into them. I appreciated his athleticism and Lord knows he's easy on the eyes, but ...... However, he really interpreted The Gladiator. He seemed into the music and everything just flowed. Dont' know if anyone would agree with me but I feel like his presentation and "oneness" with his program would be greatly enhanced with different music. What would he do to Les Miz or one of the more beautifully melodic classical pieces?
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I agree with this in the sense that unlike some skaters who can learn to interpret a piece of music, Joubert is someone who can do so well only if he really gets and feels he can relate to it. With techno/electronic programs, it's obviously easy for him, but I actually think Inception is a good choice for him, too - you just have to make allowances for his physical condition this time. He was not at his best, and it affected how well he was able to skate the program. I hope that once he's had more time to recover from his illness, he will be able to do a better job. I agree that Gladiator is another good choice for him, and I feel he might also do well with some of the French rock opera stuff he favors in galas. But I think maybe the most obvious example of Joubert connecting with a piece of music to good result was Hallelujah, which surprised a lot of people when he skated to it at the 2009 Worlds EX.

Was that Yagudin's music too, Toni? :rolleye: Because the Yagudin comments are really getting old. In a 12-season senior career, how many times has Joubert skated to music previously used by Yagudin? The only such program I can recall is Ancient Lands, music that was used by Yagudin in his Olympic EX. I suspect that if anything, because Joubert so admires Yagudin he has been careful to avoid skating to anything Alexei used in competition.

(actually, Yags skated to Hallelujah on Bolero last year with his partner, well after Joubert used it)
 
Buttercup said:
Nobody in elite skating has "no transitions", certainly not Dai and Hanyu. Not Joubert either.
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I'm sorry but I can hardly see any transition at all (here litterally) in Joubert's SP. Threes or mohawks at best. (just took the time to rewatch it : three threes, mohawks and one toe pick thing).
After, "no transition" it's a way of saying almost no, surely everybody is able to but something here and there but I tend not to consider pre/post-racking-point-jump-transitions as transition but as difficult jump variations. Also Joubert's flat edges/no speed "transitions" and toe pick work are not really transitions either for me. Too easy, no edges involved.
Now that you say it, I remember at least one eagle from Hanyu ! I'll see japanese guys again (maybe) at NHK and my memory will be refreshed.
 
machin said:
After, "no transition" it's a way of saying almost no, surely everybody is able to but something here and there but I tend not to consider pre/post-racking-point-jump-transitions as transition but as difficult jump variations. Also Joubert's flat edges/no speed "transitions" and toe pick work are not really transitions either for me. Too easy, no edges involved.
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Can you point out to me where in the guidelines for marking transitions it says "depth of edges", "high speed", "within an acceptable amount of time from any elements" or "no toepick work"? Remember, the question is not what you consider to be transitions but what the ISU considers to be transitions.

While most people find the TR mark a relatively object part of the components, it's interesting how vague the bullet points really are.
 
Buttercup said:
Was that Yagudin's music too, Toni? :rolleye:
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I am not Toni, but since I LOOOVE this program so much, please allow me to put the link on behalf of Toni! ;)

He ended up losing to Evgeni at the Worlds that season, I just loved this program, maybe more than his OGM-winning "The Man in the Iron Mask", so that probably means the best LP program of Alexei's for me! :yes:

Yagudin's 2000-01 season LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy-pNScPA4
 
deedee1 said:
I am not Toni, but since I LOOOVE this program so much, please allow me to put the link on behalf of Toni! ;)

He ended up losing to Evgeni at the Worlds that season, I just loved this program, maybe more than his OGM-winning "The Man in the Iron Mask", so that probably means the best LP program of Alexei's for me! :yes:

Yagudin's 2000-01 season LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy-pNScPA4
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Deedee, I am of course familiar with Yagudin's excellent Gladiator LP, but I was referring to Hallelujah as an example of music Joubert interpreted well. Since Toni claimed that Joubert can only "emote" (whatever that refers to) to music Yagudin has used before him, I decided to point out that there are examples to the contrary. AFAIK, looking at competition programs only, there is no piece of music that both Yagudin and Joubert skated to, though if you throw in exhibitions then there are a few both have skated to. Of course, considering the number of exhibitions high profile skaters do, as well as and the popularity of some choices of music, some similarity is to be expected. After all, how many Adele programs have we seen? I've seen a few Hallelujahs after Joubert's, too.

Yags has been out of competitive skating for a decade. At some point I think the statute of limitations on using "his" music has to run out. I mean, T&D's Bolero is as iconic a program as they come, but even Bolero has long been back in circulation. Here's what KvdP had to say last season about using music that is very much identified with Yagudin:

Why did you choose the Man in the Iron Mask soundtrack for your free program?
My biggest example has always been Alexei Yagudin, and he still is. He skated to this music in 2002, and you have to let it rest for a few years, because people will always compare you. I always wanted to skate to it, but I decided that I'm going to do it in my last season.

Weren't you afraid that even ten years later people would compare you?
They will always compare. If somebody does Carmen, they will compare to Lysacek and Plushenko, on the other hand: it's called the Man in the Iron Mask, not Yagudin in the Iron Mask, so if you want to, you can use it!
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Ive only ever seen, imo, Brian "get into" a program when the choreography was super similar to. Yags program. The music seems irrelevant (in some cases to both. Yags was formalic in his competitve programs much like Kwan... With footwork that was deceptively simple).

Joubert showed a bit of promise when he worked with Kurt (in that, hey he can do other styles) but they were still rough, and skated through, imo.

Yags does not own music, i was not implying that. But joubert has been deceived into thinking (for too long now) that its a winning style, he's playing catch up - still - within the system. It's frustratuing because he has the goods.
 
Tonichelle said:
Joubert showed a bit of promise when he worked with Kurt (in that, hey he can do other styles) but they were still rough, and skated through, imo.

Yags does not own music, i was not implying that. But joubert has been deceived into thinking (for too long now) that its a winning style, he's playing catch up - still - within the system. It's frustratuing because he has the goods.
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Actually, I think that's just his personal style, not a persona he's tried to adopt. It's trying to turn himself into some perceived vision of an IJS-friendly skater that has been the problem for Joubert, IMO. Some skaters have a huge range of styles they can do in competition* (Savchenko/Szolkowy come to mind), but most don't, and Joubert's attempts to try new things have not generally met with the judges' approval (e.g. his 2010-11 programs), so I totally understand his staying within a certain comfort zone. Although I do feel Inception is kind of a hybrid, and combines the softer side you can sometimes see from him in galas with his more usual style.

Regarding Yagudin - because the more charismatic/powerful/athletic style (I'm having a hard time settling on a label) that tends to characterize Joubert's skating is not all that common at the moment, and was also typical of Yagudin, the comparison is inevitable - but I don't think it's fair.

I did love Joubert's programs with Kurt, and All For You remains my favorite SP of his.

* I do think Joubert has shown more range with his exhibition programs.
 
Buttercup said:
No, not that one! It's the one with the music deduction and he fell, you should always use the 2007 Skate Canada version... if you want any SP stuff from Worlds, I recommend the Verner-Joubert stuff in the K&C.

I'll always mention All for You, because it was fantastic :)
Click to expand...

But it's got BESP commentary. :)

ETA It's got the K&C stuff too. :)
 
Buttercup said:
Can you point out to me where in the guidelines for marking transitions it says "depth of edges", "high speed", "within an acceptable amount of time from any elements" or "no toepick work"? Remember, the question is not what you consider to be transitions but what the ISU considers to be transitions.

While most people find the TR mark a relatively object part of the components, it's interesting how vague the bullet points really are.
Click to expand...

It's not this but more the fact that even though the guidelines says something, in the end, you still compare the skaters. Joubert's "transitions" just worth nothing compare to Chan's. The difficulty must be involved too, if not, why bothering ? Still, Joubert's marking was closer to reality during last TEB than during lots of past competitions and he's not the only one to be overmarked.
You can't argue about the SP because here, there's really nothing or do you think three threes and mohawks are enough for 6.86 ? Becasue that's all you can find between his elements. The LP, it's just an illusion of transitions. But that's only my opinion.
And anyway I don't care at all about what COP horribles guidelines can say. It gave 11.86 pts for Amodio two SP falls = one clean quad. Delirious.
 
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